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Full text of "National defense migration. Hearings before the Select Committee Investigating National Defense Migration, House of Representatives, Seventy-seventh Congress, first[-second] session, pursuant to H. Res. 113, a resolution to inquire further into the interstate migration of citizens, emphasizing the present and potential consequences of the migraion caused by the national defense program. pt. 11-[34]"

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Given  By 










H.  Res.  113 






PART  33 

(With  Florida  and  New  Jersey  Supplement) 
MAY  22,  JUNE  11,  19,  1942 

Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Select  Committee  Investigating 
National  Defense  Migration 









H.  Res.  113 



AND       POTENTIAL       CONSEQUENCES       OF       THE 



PART  33 

(With  Florida  and  New  Jersey  Supplement) 
MAY  22,  JUNE  11,  19,  1942 

Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Select  Committee  Investigating 
National  Defense  Migration 



WASHINGTON  :  1942 


JOHN  H.  TOLAN,  California,  Chairman 
JOHN  J.  SPARKMAN,  Alabama     .'  '«  Ui      CARL  T.  CURTIS,  Nebraska 


Robert  K.  Lamb,  Staff  Director 



List  of  witnesses vn 

List  of  authors ix 

Friday,  May  22,  1942,  morning  session 12413 

Testimony  of  Msgr.  John  O'Crady 12415 

Testimony  of  William  F.  Montavon 12418 

Statement  by  Msgr.  John  O'Grady 12420 

Testimony  of  panel  of  representatives  of  Federal  agencies  concerned 

with  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor 12423,  12442,  12450 

Testimony  of  Collis  Stocking 12423 

Testimony  of  Allan  C.  Devany 12425 

Testimony  of  William  J.  Rogers 12426,  12430 

Testimony  of  Clara  M.  Beyer 12428 

Testimony  of  Ernesto  Galarza 12432 

Testimony  of  Walter  H.  C.  Laves 12436 

Testimony  of  Al vin  Roseman 1 2438 

Testimony  of  George  H.  Winters 12440 

Testimony  of  Elmer  Rowalt 12449 

Exhibits  introduced  at  Washington  hearing 12455 

Exhibit  1 — A  symposium  on  the  question  of  need  for  importation  of 

Mexican  labor 12455 

A.  Statement  by  Laurence  Duggan,  advisor  on  political  relations, 

Department  of  State 12455 

B.  Statement  by  Lemuel  B.  Schofield,  Special  Assistant  to  the 

Attorney  General,  Department  of  Justice,  Immigration  and 
Naturalization  Service 12457 

C.  Statement  by  John  J.  Corson,  Director,  Bureau  of  Employ- 

ment Security,   Federal  Security   Agency,  Social  Security 
Board 12459 

D.  Statement   by   Walter  H.   C.   Laves,   Director   (Division   of 

Inter-American    Activities    in    the    United    States,    Office 

of  the  Coordinator  of  Inter- American  Affairs 12459 

E.  Statement  by   W.  J.   Rogers,  Division  of  Labor  and  Rural 

Industries,   Office  of  Agricultural   War  Relations,   United 
States  Department  of  Agriculture 12460 

F.  Statement  by  D.  W.  Tracy,  Assistant  Secretary,  Department 

of  Labor 12461 

Exhibit  2 — Letter  from  labor  subcommittee  of  Tehama  County  Land- 
Use  Committee,  Red  Bluff,  Calif.,  presenting  need  for  importation 

of  Mexican  labor 12461 

Exhibit  3 — Cotton  and  sugar-beet  prices  and  wage  rates;  by  William 
J.  Rogers,  Chief,  Division  of  Labor  and  Rural  Industries,  Office  of 
Agricultural  War  Relations,  United  States  Department  of  Agricul- 
ture   i 12462 

Thursday.  June  11,  1942,  morning  session 12463 

Testimony  of  C.  B.  Baldwin 12463 

Statement  by  C.  B.  Baldwin 12473 

Testimony  of  John  J.  Corson 12477 

Statement  by  John  J.  Corson 12494 

Friday,  June  19,  1942,  morning  session 12503 

Testimony  of  Wendell  Lund 12503 

Statement  by  Wendell  Lund 12514 

Testimony  of  Joseph  B.  Eastman 12518 

Testimony  of  Walter  M.  Pierce 12530 

Testimony  of  Franck  R.  Havenner 12533 




Florida  supplement,  April  21,  1942 12535 

Testimony  of  Joseph  R.  Neller 12535,  12537 

Statement  by  Joseph  R.  Neller 12535 

Testimony  of  Mark  R.  Tennant 12550 

Testimony  of  James  E.  Beardsley 12557 

Testimony  of  Annie  Tompkins 12570 

Testimony  of  James  Solomon 12574 

Testimony  of  Howard  L.  Haney 12577 

Testimony  of  William  Bryant 12609 

Testimony  of  C.  A.  Sanders 12612 

Testimony  of  Ruth  S.  Wedgeworth 12615 

Testimony  of  Johnnie  Belle  Taylor 12625 

Testimony  of  Elnore  Jackson 12630 

Testimony  of  Samuel  H.  Rosenstock 12632 

Testimony  of  Norman  Hall 12639 

Testimony  of  Bryan  McLendon •___  12643 

Testimony  of  Jacob  McMillan 12651 

Testimony  of  William  Yearby 12653 

Testimony  of  Luther  Jones 12657 

Testimony  of  Jerry  Wells 12676 

Testimony  of  Edward  Carter 12687 

Testimony  of  William  Graber 12691 

Testimony  of  Thomas  Tanner 12699 

Testimony  of  Myrtle  May  Walker  and  Thomas  Walker 12701 

Testimony  of  Daniel  De  Bruyne 12703 

Testimony  of  C.  M.  Swindle 12706 

Testimony  of  Allison  T.  French ' 12710 

Testimony  of  Virgil  Singleton 12723 

Testimony  of  George  F.  Walz 12727 

Statement  by  George  F.  Walz 12727 

Testimony  of  Robert  Patton 12739 

Testimony  of  Paul  Vander  Schouw 12745,  12758 

Statement  by  Paul  Vander  Schouw 12745 

Testimony  of  Joseph  G.  Cassellius 12767 

Testimony  of  Alton  Williams 12772 

Testimony  of  M.  M.  Carter 12775 

Testimony  of  B.  E.  Lawton 12778 

Testimony  of  P.  L.  Hinson 12785 

Testimony  of  Dorothea  Brower 12789 

Testimony  of  George  D.  Ruehle 12796 

Testimony  of  Luther  L.  Chandler 12806 

Testimony  of  James  Sottile 12831 

Introduction  of  exhibits 12845 

Exhibit  1 — Drainage  and  water  control  districts  to  which  the  Recon- 
struction Finance  Corporation  has  authorized  loans  in  the  State  of 
Florida;  report  by  Albert  L.  Strong,  Chief,  Drainage  and  Irrigation 
Section,     Reconstruction     Finance    Corporation,     Department    of 

Commerce,  Washington,  D.  C 12845 

Exhibit  2 — Loan  to  South  Dade  Farms,  Inc.,  by  Reconstruction 
Finance  Corporation;  by  W.  E.  Stroud,  Assistant  Chief,  Examining 
Division,    Reconstruction    Finance    Corporation,     Department    of 

Commerce,  Washington,  D.  C 12849 

Exhibit  3 — Letter  from  J.  H.  Callahan,  Jr.,  manager,  Florida  Farm 
Placement  Service,  Miami,  Fla.,  to  L.  S.  Rickard,  director,  Florida 
State  Employment  Service,  concerning  the  farm  placement  program 

in  Dade  County 12850 

Exhibit  4 — Letter  received  from  Charles  H.  Steffani,  Dade  County 
agricultural  agent,  Miami,  Fla.,  with  results  of  a  labor  survey  taken 

during  December  1941 12852 

Exhibit  5 — Migratory  agricultural  labor  in  Florida;  report  by  Robert 
B.  Beasley,  Chief,  Reports  and  Analysis  Unit,  United  States  Em- 
ployment Service,  Federal  Security  Agency,  Tallahassee,  Fla 12853 

Exhibit  6 — Report  on  Glades  Farms,  Inc.,  by  Frank  W.  Williamson, 

projects  manager,  Okeechobee,  Fla 12854 


Introduction  of  exhibits — Continued.  Paga 

Exhibit  7 — Marketing  of  Produce  in  south  Florida;  report  by  Marcel 
A.  Boudet,  county  rural  resettlement  supervisor,  Farm  Security 
Administration,    United   States   Department  of  Agriculture,   Lake 

Worth,  Fla 12855 

Exhibit  8 — Operation  of  county  schools;  letter  from  Ulric  J.  Bennett, 
Broward  County  superintendent  of  public  instruction,  Fort  Lauder- 
dale, Fla 12856 

Exhibit  9 — Surplus  commodity  case  loads  in  Palm  Beach  County; 
report  by  Alice   Mather,  director,  district  welfare  board,  district 

No.  10,  West  Palm  Beach,  Fla 12856 

Exhibit  10 — Conditions  on  plantations  of  United  States  Sugar  Cor- 
poration in  the  Florida  Everglades;  by  Clarence  R.  Bitting,  presi- 
dent, United  States  Sugar  Corporation,  Clewiston,  Fla 12857 

Exhibit  11— Extracts  from  Belle  Glade  Herald,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12859 

Exhibit  12 — Land  Development  in  the  Everglades;  by  Fritzie  P. 
Manuel,  member  of  staff,  Select  Committee  Investigating  National 

Defense   Migration,   Washington,   D.   C 12863 

Exhibit  13 — Vegetable  production  in  South  Florida;  by  Joan  Pascal 
and  Harold  B.  Tipton,  agricultural  field  staff,  Select  Committee  In- 
vestigating National  Defense  Migration,  Washington,  D.  C 12888 

Exhibit  14 — Sugar  production  in  Florida;  by  Fritizie  P.  Manuel,  mem- 
ber  of  Staff,    Select    Committee   Investigating    National    Defense 

Migration 12955 

New  Jersey  supplement,  Saturday,  May  9,  1942;  May  12,  1942: 

Testimony  of  Francis  A.  Raymaley 12977 

Testimony  of  Carroll  C.  Adams 12988 

Testimony  of  Kenneth  S.  Roberts 12993 

Testimony  of  Joe  Brown 13005 

Testimony  of  W.  E.  Wainwright 13008 

Testimony  of  J.  M.  Seabrook 13012 

Testimony  of  George  I.  Ball 13025 

Testimony  of  Richard  Mitchell 13029 

Testimony  of  John  Williams 13030 

Testimony  of  Melvin  Smith 13032 

Testimony  of  J.  Hartley  Nixon 13034 

1     Testimony  of  Donald  A.  Smith 13037 

Testimony  of  George  E.  Lamb 13043 


Adams,  Carroll  C,  senior  interviewer,  Farm  Placement  Service,  United 

States  Employment  Service,  Bridgeton,  N.  J 12988 

Baldwin,    C.   B.,    Administrator,   Farm  Security   Administration,   United 

States  Department  of  Agriculture,  Washington,  D.  C 12463 

Ball,  George  I.,  Salem  County  agricultural  agent,  Salem,  N.  J 13025 

Beardsley,  James  E.,  farmer  and  real-estate  broker,  Clewiston,  Fla 12557 

Beyer,  Clara  M.,  Assistant  Director,  Division  of  Labor  Standards,  Depart- 
ment of  Labor,  Washington,  D.  C 12428 

Brown,  Joe,  migrant,  Bridgeton,  N.  J 13005 

Bryant,  William,  migrant,  Camp  Okeechobee,  Farm  Security  Administra- 
tion migratory  labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12609 

Carter,  Edward,  Camp  Osceola,  Farm  Secuirty  Administration  migratory 

labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12687 

Corson,  John  J.,  Director,  United  States  Employment  Service,  Federal 

Security  Agency,  Social  Security  Board,  Washington,  D.  C 12477 

De  Bruyne,  Daniel,  local  manager,  J.  C.  Hutchinson  Co.,  Belle  Glade,  Fla.   12703 
Devany,  Allan  C,  Chief  Examiner,  Immigration  and  Naturalization  Serv- 
ice, Department  of  Justice,  Washington,  D.  C 12425 

Eastman,  Joseph  B.,  Director,  Office  of  Defense  Transportation,  Wash- 
ington, D.  C 12518 

French,  Allison  T.,  manager,  West  Palm  Beach  office,  United  States  Em- 
ployment Service,  Federal  Security  Agency,  West  Palm  Beach,  Fla 12710 

Galarza,  Ernesto,  Chief,  Division  of  Labor  and  Social  Information,  Pan 

American  Union,  Washington,  D.  C 12432 

Graber,  William,  Box  743,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12691 

Hall,  Norman,  trucker,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12639 

Haney,  Edward  L.,  farmer,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12577 

Havenner,   Frank   R.,   former   Congressman  from   San   Francisco,   Calif., 

member,  State  Railroad  Commission  of  California,  San  Francisco,  Calif.  12533 

Jackson,  Elmore,  migrant,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12630 

Jones,  Luther,  owner,  Belle  Glade  Herald,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12657 

Lamb,  George  E.,  Gloucester  County  agricultural  agent,  Woodbury,  N.  J_  13043 
Lavee,  Walter  H.  C,  Director,  Division  of  Inter- American  Activities  in  the 
United   States,   Office   of  the   Coordinator  of  Inter- American   Affairs, 

Washington,  D.  C 12436 

Lund,  Wendell,  Director  of  Labor  Production  Division,  War  Production 

Board,  Washington,  D.  C 12503 

McLendon,  Bryan,  harvester,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12643 

McMillan,    Jacob,    Camp    Osceola,    Farm   Security    Administration   mi- 
gratory labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12651 

Mitchell,  Richard,  Farm  Security  Administration  migratory  labor  camp, 

Swedesboro,  N.  J 13029 

Montavon,    William   F.,    director,   legal   department,    National   Catholic 

Welfare  Association,  Washington,  D.  C 12418 

Neller,  Dr.  J.  R.,  biochemist  in  charge  of  Everglades  experiment  station, 

University  of  Florida,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12535 

Nixon,  J.  Hartley,  farmer,  Woodstown,  N.  J 13034 

O'Gradv,  Rt.  Rev.  John,  secretary,  National  Conference  of  Catholic  Chari- 
ties, Washington,  D.  C 12415 

Pierce,  Walter  M.,  Representative  in  Congress  from  the  State  of  Oregon 12530 

Ravmaley,  Francis  A.,  Cumberland  County  agricultural  agent,  Bridgeton, 

N.  J 12977 

Roberts,  Kenneth  S.,  farmer,  R.  F.  D.  No.  1,  Bridgeton,  N.J 12993 

Rogers,  William  J.,  Chief  of  the  Division  of  Labor  and  Rural  Industries, 
Office   of  Agricultural   War   Relations,    United   States   Department   of 

Agriculture,  Washington,  D.  C 12426,  12430 

Roseman,  Alvin,  assistant  to  the  Administrator,  Federal  Security  Agency, 

Washington,  D.  C 12438 



Rosenstock,  Samuel  H.,  partner,  Belle  Glade  Canning  Co.,  Belle  Glade, 

Fla 12632 

Rowalt,    Elmer,    assistant   to   the   Director,    War   Relocation   Authority,  » 

Washington,  D.  C 12449 

Sanders,  C.  A.,  Camp  Osceola,  Farm  Security  Administration  migratory 

labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12612 

Seabrook,  J.  M.,  manager,  Seabrook  Farms,  Bridgeton,  N.  J 13012 

Singleton,  Virgil,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12723 

Smith,  Donald  A.,  manager,  Woodbury  office,  United  States  Employment 

Service,  Woodbury,  N.  J 1 13037 

Smith,    Melvin,    Farm   Security   Administration   migratory   labor   camp, 

Swedesboro,  N.  J 13032 

Solomon,  James,  migrant,  Camp  Okeechobee,  Farm  Security  Administra- 
tion migratory  labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12574 

Stocking,    Collis,    Assistant   Director,    Bureau   of   Employment   Security, 

Social  Security  Board,  Federal  Security  Agency,  Washington,  D.  C 12433 

Swindle,  C.  M.,  Camp  Osceola,  Farm  Security  Administration  migratory 

labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla_ _  _ 12706 

Tanner,  Thomas,  Camp  Osceola,  Farm  Security  Administration  migratory 

labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12699 

Taylor,  Johnnie  Belle,  migrant,   Camp  Okeechobee,   Farm  Security  Ad- 
ministration migratory  labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12625 

Tennant,  Mark  R.,  chairman  of  the  board  of  commissioners,  Everglades 

drainage  district,  Miami,  Fla 12550 

Tompkins,  Annie,  Camp  Osceola.  Farm  Security  Administration  migra- 
tory labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12570 

Wainwright,  W.  E.,  vice  president,  P.  J.  Ritter  &  Co.,  canners,  Bridgeton, 

N.  J... 13008 

Walker,   Myrtle   May,  and  Thomas,   Camp  Okeechobee,  Farm  Security 

Administration  migratory  labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12701 

Walz,  George  F.,  secretary- treasurer,  Miami   Production  Credit  Associa- 
tion, Miami,  Fla 12727,  12730 

Wedgworth,  Ruth  S.,  manager  and  coadministrator,  H.  H.  Wedgeworth 

estate,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12615 

Wells,  Jerry,  Camp  Okeechobee,  Farm  Security  Administration  migratory 

labor  camp,  Belle  Glade,  Fla_ 12676 

Williams,   John,    Farm   Security   Administration  migratory   labor  camp, 

Swedesboro,  N.  J 13030 

Winters,   George  H.,   Assistant  Chief,   Division  of  American   Republics, 

Department  of  State,  Washington,  D.  C 12440 

Yearby,  William,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12653 


Of  Prepared  Statements  and  Exhibits 


Baldwin,    C.    B.,   Administrator,   Farm  Security  Administration,   United 

States  Department  of  Agriculture,  Washington,  D.  C 12473 

Bennett,  Ulrich  J.,  superintendent  of  public  instruction,  Broward  County, 

Fort  Lauderdale,  Fla 12856 

Beasley,    Robert  B.,    Chief,    Reports  and   Analysis   Unit,    United  States 

Employment  Service,  State  of  Florida,  Tallahassee,  Fla 12853 

Bitting,  Clarence  R.,  president,  United  States  Sugar  Corporation,  Clewis- 

ton,  Fla 12857 

Boudet,  Marcel  A.,  county  rural  resettlement  supervisor,  Farm  Security 
Administration,  United  States  Department  of  Agriculture,  Lake  Worth, 
Fla 12855 

Callahan,  J.  H.,  Jr.,  manager,  Florida  Farm  Placement  Service,  Florida 

State  Employment  Service,  Miami,  Fla 12850 

Corson,  John  J.  A.,  Director,  United  States  Employment  Service,  Federal 

Security  Agency,  Social  Security  Board,  Washington,  D.  C 12459,  12494 

Duggan,   Laurence,  advisor  on  political  relations,   Department  of  State, 

Washington,  D.  C _ 12455 

Lund,  Wendell,  Director  of  Labor  Production  Division,  War  Production 

Board,  Washington,  D.  C 12514 

Manuel,    Fritzie    P.,    member   of   staff,    Select    Committee    Investigating 

National  Defense  Migration,  Washington,  D.  C 12863,  12955 

Mather,  Alice,  director,  district  welfare  board,  district  No.  10,  West  Palm 

Beach,  Fla 12856 

McCoy,  Leo  A.,  chairman  labor  subcommittee,  Tehama  County  Land- 
Use  Committee,  post  office  box  391,  Red  Bluff,  Calif 12461 

Niller,  Dr.  J.  R.,  biochemist  in  charge  of  Everglades  experiment  station, 

University  of  Florida,  Belle  Glade,  Fla 12535 

O'Grady,    Rt.    Rev.    John,    secretary,    National    Conference   of    Catholic 

Charities,  Washington,  D.  C 12420 

Pascal,  Joan,  member  of  staff,  Select  Committee  Investigating  National 

Defense  Migration,  Washington,  D.  C 12888 

Raymaley,  Francis  A.,  agricultural  agent,  Cumberland  County,  Bridgeton, 

N.  J 12981 

Rogers,  W.  J.,  Chief,  Division  of  Labor  and  Rural  Industries,  Office  of  Agri- 
cultural War  Relations,  United  States  Department  of  Agriculture 12460, 


Schofield,  Lemuel  B.,  special  assistant  to  the  Attorney  General,  Depart- 
ment of  Justice,  Immigration  and  Naturalization  Service,  Washington, 
D.  C 12457 

Steffani,  Charles  H.,  agricultural  agent,  Dade  County,  Miami,  Fla 12852 

Stroud,  W.  E.,  Assistant  Chief,  Examining  Division,  Reconstruction  Fi- 
nance Corporation,  Department  of  Commerce,  Washington,  D.  C 12849 

Strong,  Albert  L.,  Chief,  Drainage  and  Irrigation  Section,  Reconstruction 

Finance  Corporation,  Department  of  Commerce,  Washington,  D.  C 12845 

Tipton,  Harold  G.,  member  of  staff,  Select  Committee  Investigating  Na- 
tional Defense  Migration,  Washington,  D.  C 12888 

Tracv,   D.  W.,  Assistant  Secretary,  Department  of  Labor,  Washington, 

D.'C 12461 

Walz,  George  F.,  secretary-treasurer,  Miami  Production  Credit  Associa- 
tion, Miami,  Fla 12727 



FRIDAY,   MAY  22,    1942 

morning  session 

Select  Committee  Investigating 

National  Defense  Migration, 

House  of  Representatives, 

Washington,  D.  C. 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  10  a.  m.,  in  Room  1536, 
New  House  Office  Building,  Washington,  D.  C,  Hon.  John  H.  Tolan 
(chairman)  presiding. 

Present:  Representatives  John  H.  Tolan,  of  California,  chairman; 
John  J.  Sparkman,  of  Alabama;  and  Laurence  F.  Arnold,  of  Illinois. 

Also  present:  Dr.  Robert  K.  Lamb,  staff  director  of  the  committee. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  please  come  to  order. 

We  have  invited  you  people  here  today  as  the  representatives  of 
Federal  agencies  interested  in  the  question  of  utilizing  Mexican  labor 
to  augment  the  domestic  labor  force,  and  we  are  very  pleased  to  have 
you  here. 

This  committee  has  been  concerned  with  the  migration  in  agriculture 
of  workers  of  Mexican  origin  ever  since  our  attention  was  directed  to 
it  in  hearings  at  Chicago  and  Oklahoma  City  in  August  1940.  Two 
members  of  the  staff  of  this  committee  were  sent  to  Texas  last  Decem- 
ber at  the  request  of  the  Texas  congressional  delegation,  to  investi- 
gate demands  for  the  importation  of  32,000  Mexicans  for  use  in  the 
cotton  harvest. 

When  we  were  asked  by  various  agencies  to  inquire  into  the  evacua- 
tion of  enemy  aliens  from  the  west  coast  in  February  of  this  year,  we 
were  compelled  to  cancel  a  proposed  hearing  in  Texas  on  the  importa- 
tion of  Mexican  workers.  After  our  return  from  the  coast,  new  de- 
mands for  importation  of  Mexican  workers  arose  while  we  were  com- 
pleting our  report  on  the  evacuation.  About  a  month  ago  the  com- 
mittee authorized  the  staff  to  explore  the  question  with  the  several 
agencies  involved.  This  conference  today  reflects,  therefore,  our  long- 
standing interest  in  this  question.     , 

We  are  dealing  now  with  a  sovereign  Nation,  Mexico,  a  neighbor,  an 
ally,  and  we  do  not  want  to  do  anything  of  any  kind  or  character  that 
will  in  any  way  embarrass  the  great  Mexican  Nation  so  we  decided  to 
start  at  the  top,  not  at  the  bottom  as  in  the  usual  migration  investi- 

We  have  called  you  together  informally  this  morning,  rather  in  the 
manner  of  feeling  our  way  because  we  want  it  understood  that  this 
committee  will  never  do  anything  final  without  the  approval  of  the 
Mexican   Nation.     It   isn't   simply    a   question   of    10,000   Mexican 



workers  in  the  Salinas  Valley  of  California,  or  in  the  cotton  fields;  it 
is  a  bigger  question  than  that. 

We  do  not  propose  to  conduct  this  discussion  in  the  form  of  a  hear- 
ing, but  rather  as  an  informal  round-table  discussion.  We  have 
previously  asked  you  to  submit  answers  to  a  series  of  questions.  We 
had  planned  to  prepare  a  brief  resume  of  these  replies,  but  since  they 
came  in  quite  late  this  was  impossible.  This  material  will,  however, 
be  made  a  part  of  the  committee's  published  records. 

The  committee  is,  of  course,  aware  of  the  conferences  which  have 
been  held  during  the  past  several  weeks  by  Mr.  Roseman,  represent- 
ing Governor  McNutt  and  the  War  Manpower  Commission.  Our 
staff  representatives  attended  as  observers  at  these  meetings,  and  we 
have  been  kept  informed. 

At  this  point  I  should  like  to  make  it  clear  that  the  presence  of  staff 
members  at  these  meetings  should  not  be  regarded  by  the  conferees 
as  actual  participation  by  this  committee  in  the  sessions,  to  the  extent 
of  formulating  administrative  policy.  My  understanding  is  that  no 
formal  vote  was  taken  at  these  meetings  and  that  there  has  been  no 
final  action  by  the  Manpower  Commission. 

We  know  that  the  Employment  Service  is  prepared  to  certify  to  the 
immigration  authorities  that  6,000  Mexican  workers  are  needed 
immediately  for  thinning  and  blocking  sugar  beets.  We  know  also 
that  a  statement  of  labor  standards  for  the  recruitment  and  employ- 
ment of  Mexican  workers  in  the  United  States  has  been  drafted  by  a 
subcommittee  of  Governor  McNutt's  committee.  It  is  our  under- 
standing that  this  statement  has  been  transmitted  to  the  State  Depart- 
ment accompanying  the  request  for  the  importation  of  6,000  workers. 

It  is  the  committee's  view  that  the  conference  today  should  probably 
broaden  the  basis  for  our  discussion  beyond  the  question  of  this  initial 
request  for  6,000  Mexicans,  and  even  beyond  the  question  of  the  im- 
portation of  Mexican  workers.  It  is  our  view  that  even  should  the 
Mexican  Government  agree  to  the  importation,  the  request  for 
Mexican  labor  cannot  be  expected,  to  do  more  than  alleviate  tem- 
porarily the  problem  of  labor  supply  which  we  can  all  see  developing 
for  agriculture  in  this  country  as  the  war  continues.  In  his  communi- 
cation to  the  committee  with  respect  to  this  conference,  Mr.  Corson 
has  indicated  that  the  Employment  Service  certification  of  the  need 
for  6,000  workers  is  conditioned  upon  the  insufficiency  of  funds  to 
enable  the  Service  to  extend  its  search  for  workers  within  this  country. 

The  Immigration  Service  has  indicated  its  belief  that  Japanese  now 
being  evacuated  from  the  west  coast  should  be  used  to  supplement  our 
agricultural  labor  supply,  and  specifically  should  be  used  in  the  sugar- 
beet  industry.  All  of  these  matters  are  actually  part  of  the  larger 
problem  of  mobilizing  labor  supply  for  war  production.  It  seems  to  us 
important  that  at  this  conference  the  question  of  the  importation  of 
Mexican  labor  be  discussed  in  this  larger  setting.  If  the  Mexican 
Government  should  refuse  to  allow  such  importation,  we  may  very 
well  find  ourselves  just  where  we  started. 

This  morning;,  before  this  conference  began,  the  committee  asked 
Msgr.  John  O'Grady,  of  the  National  Conference  of  Catholic  Charities, 
to  describe  to  us  his  observations  in  California  and  the  Southwestern 
States  during  the  last  few  weeks.  The  committee  was  very  much 
interested  in  the  account  which  he  and  Mr.  Montavon  gave  us. 



Monsignor,  please  present  what  facts  you  think  will  be  interesting 
to  the  committee. 

Monsignor  O'Grady.  I  should  like  to  deal  with  the  situation  as 
concretely  as  possible.  I  suppose  the  basic  issue  now  is  the  question 
of  the  supply  of  agricultural  labor  in  certain  Middlewestern,  Rocky 
Mountain,  and  Pacific  Coast  States.  I  think  it  is  generally  recog- 
nized that  at  the  present  time  there  are  3,000,000  Mexican  and 
Spanish-American  workers  which  constitute  the  unused  labor  supply. 
This,  of  course,  is  due  in  the  Mexican  border  area  to  lack  of  facilities 
for  employment;  in  southern  California,  and  particularly  in  Los 
Angeles  County,  it  is  due  to  discrimination  and  to  lack  of  preemploy- 
ment  training  facilities  for  Mexican  workers. 

We  have  been  very  much  concerned,  and  I  know  several  of  the 
officials  of  this  Government  have  been  concerned,  about  additional 
employment  opportunities  for  Mexicans  on  the  border.  There  is,  of 
course,  a  serious  unemployment  problem  along  the  entire  border. 
Recently  there  has  been  a  good  deal  of  talk  about  labor  shortages. 
In  February  a  group  of  people  came  here  from  the  El  Paso  area,  and 
some  of  the  people  connected  with  the  Employment  Service,  know- 
ing about  their  projected  trip,  told  them  about  the  labor  supply 
available  in  northern  New  Mexico  and  asked  them  why  they  would 
not  employ  these  people  rather  than  bring  workers  from  Old  Mexico. 
They  said  they  didn't  want  workers  from  the  W.  P.  A.  because  people 
who  had  been  on  W.  P.  A.  didn't  want  to  work.  At  a  recent  meeting 
one  of  the  members  of  the  same  group  said,  "We  don't  need  them  so 
much — that's  not  the  question.  But  you  know  we  can  get  them  for 
20  cents  an  hour.  That's  very  high  wages  for  Mexicans.  We  just 
ship  them  over  the  border  and  when  we  get  through  with  them  we 
ship  them  back  again.  That  doesn't  cost  much."  Maybe  that's  the 
real  question. 

Many  of  us  had  hoped  that  we  might  have  an  opportunity  in  this 
emergency  of  improving  the  conditions  of  the  Mexican  workers  in 
this  country  as  a  matter  of  good  relationship  with  Mexico.  Those  of 
us  who  deal  with  Mexican  people  know  that  this  is  a  very  serious 
source  of  irritation  to  them. 

There  has  been  a  good  deal  of  talk  recently  about  recruiting  Mexi- 
can workers  in  Texas  for  the  beet  fields  of  Colorado,  Michigan,  and 
Illinois.  There  have  been  some  130  agents  down  there,  representing 
the  sugar  companies.  Of  course,  how  far  the  workers  are  recruited 
directly  or  how  far  they  are  recruited  by  the  "grapevine"  I  don't 
think  anybody  knows.  On  my  recent  trip  down  there  in  southern 
Rio  Grande  Valley,  I  had  the  chance  of  talking  to  many  of  these 
migrant  workers,  their  families,  and  to  chiefs  of  labor,  and  I  found 
that  there  has  been  some  talk  along  the  line,  through  the  "grape- 
vine," of  employment  opportunities  in  the  North.  Of  course  that's 
never  definite,  but  that  method  has  been  used  all  over  in  recruiting 
workers;  they  have  been  trying  for  the  past  2  months  to  get  them  up 
here.  At  the  present  time,  at  least  about  2  weeks  ago,  they  had  a 
number  of  families,  about  600  workers,  recruited  in  Texas,  stranded 
in  the  neighborhood  of  Holland,  Mich.  In  Colorado  they  begin  the 
first  thinnings  the  latter  part  of  May,  but  it  may  be  postponed,  if  it 


is  cold,  for  2  weeks.  Another  method  of  recruiting  has  been — and  I 
have  no  reason  to  believe  that  it  has  changed  in  the  past  month — is 
the  method  adopted  by  the  Great  Western  Sugar  Co.,  to  bring  all  the 
pressure  possible  to  bear  on  the  local  counties  to  have  these  Mexicans 
removed  from  relief  the  1st  of  April.  That's  2  months  before  the  first 
thinning  begins,  and  then  they  get  them  out  to  the  fields,  out  to  the 
valleys  of  the  upper  and  the  lower  Platte  and  the  Arkansas  Rivers, 
and  I  have  seen  them  on  June  1  still  without  any  contract.  They 
didn't  know  how  many  people  were  needed;  they  didn't  know  how 
many  people  were  going  to  get  contracts.  They  just  say,  "We  need 
5,000."  Nobody  knows  whether  they  need  5,000  or  1,000.  I  don't 
know  whether  the  Great  Western  Sugar  Co.  knows  itself  but  I  am 
quite  sure  our  Employment  Service  doesn't  know  how  many  are 
really  needed  in  Colorado  or  in  Michigan  or  Illinois  at  the  present 
time.  I  am  afraid  it  is  just  one  of  these  things  on  which  there  are  no 
statistics  available.  I  tried  to  find  how  many  were  recruited  from 
Texas.  There  have  been  all  kinds  of  rumors  regarding  the  figure.  It 
was  said  at  the  meeting  in  San  Antonio  that  they  had  40,000  recruits. 
I  learned  from  the  Employment  Service  here  that  it  is  about  19,000. 
There  have  been  all  kinds  of  estimates  between  19,000  and  40,000. 
Now,  how  to  get  the  exact  figures,  I  don't  know.  Of  course,  they 
say  that  these  agents  have  to  be  registered.  They  have  to  pay  $1,000 
occupational  tax  and  then  they  have  to  pay  $300  besides  in  each  county 
in  which  they  operate.  The  methods  they  use,  nobody  knows.  The 
Employment  Service  doesn't  know.  Mr.  Maddox  of  the  Great  West- 
ern Sugar  Co.  has  been  down  there  and  how  far  he  recruits  through 
the  agents  or  through  the  "grapevine,"  nobody  knows.  That's  just 
a  grand  mystery. 

I  have  talked  to  several  of  the  leaders  of  these  Mexican  groups,  and 
from  what  I  can  gather  they  are  finishing  around  the  southern  part  of 
the  valley  at  this  time,  finishing  there  on  onions  and  peas,  and  some 
of  them  are  moving  north.  I  talked  to  the  leaders  in  four  camps 
about  a  week  ago  and  they  all  tell  me  they  have  about  the  same  supply 
of  labor  this  year  as  last  year,  and  they  are  following  about  the  same 
pattern.  Some  of  them  are  going  north.  They  are  following  the 
crops  north  to  Dallas  and  then  they  return.  Those  that  go  north 
now  return  for  the  cotton  crop  and  they  all  say  that  they  will  have  the 
same  number  for  cotton  in  July  and  August.  The  so-called  Anglos, 
the  Anglo-Saxon  workers  from  Arkansas  and  Oklahoma,  come  south 
to  the  Lower  Valley,  the  Rio  Grande  Valley,  and  then  they  go  north 
and  west  to  Lubbock  and  El  Paso.  There  is  no  evidence  of  any  labor 
shortage  in  the  valley.  I  understand  the  representatives  of  the  South 
Texas  Chamber  of  Commerce  have  been  here.  I  haven't  talked  to 
the  gentlemen,  but  I  have  talked  to  the  families  and  the  workers  and 
I  have  talked  to  the  leaders  of  the  gangs  and  they  tell  me  they  have 
had  an  adequate  supply  of  labor  there  this  year.  I  have  heard  no 
complaints  about  it. 

The  farmers  in  Texas  have  become  conscious  of  the  fact  that  there 
is  a  transportation  problem.  I  find  that  the  workers,  these  chiefs  of 
gangs,  are  getting  tires  somehow.  They  have  been  able  to  make  some 
sort  of  a  deal  with  the  members  of  the  rationing  boards — some  of  the 
farmers  in  that  area  are  members  of  the  boards— and  they  have  been 
able  to  get  tires  so  I  have  not  heard  much  complaint  about  the  ability 
to  get  north.     That  is  another  story.     I  find  it  is  different  in  other 


sections.  The  Employment  Service  is  closer  to  this  agricultural  labor 
problem  in  Texas  than  in  any  other  State;  in  most  of  the  States  the 
Employment  Service  has  hardly  touched  this  problem,  except  on  paper. 
They  have  just  made  a  slight  beginning  in  Florida.  Now,  I  find  that 
in  Texas  most  of  the  people  who  have  come  from  the  north  have  been 
recruited  from  the  cities,  from  the  large  pools  of  employment  in  the 
cities.  There  has  been  a  good  deal  of  pressure  to  get  the  W.  P.  A.  to 
reduce  rolls,  although  there  are  still  a  considerable  number  on  the 

In  regard  to  the  California  situation,  I  have  been  in  about  five 
camps  in  the  San  Joaquin  Valley  in  the  past  3  weeks  and  I  find  the 
people  are  moving  along  the  same  as  they  did  in  other  years.  Of 
course,  the  tire  shortage  is  beginning  to  affect  the  movements  of  the 
workers  in  San  Joaquin  Valley.  The  farmers  don't  seem  to  pay  any 
attention.  The  workers  had  to  furnish  their  own  transportation  in 
the  years  past.  I  think  the  fact  that  the  farmers  aren't  conscious  of 
the  transportation  problem  is  further  evidence  of  the  fact  there  is  no 
shortage  of  labor  in  the  San  Joaquin  or  Sacramento  Valleys.  I 
counted  the  number  of  people  in  those  camps  and  I  found  a  consider- 
able unemployment  problem  among  them;  even  in  the  northern  parts 
of  the  valley  they  are  just  working  about  3  days  a  week.  Many  of 
the  workers  told  me  this  after  they  had  been  out  all  morning  wearing 
out  their  tires  and  were  unable  to  find  work.  That  was  true  in  many 
cases.  I  found  only  one  camp  in  which  all  the  workers  were  employed, 
but  even  in  that  area  there  was  no  evidence  of  shortage. 

I  believe  the  Farm  Security  program  has  done  an  excellent  job  in 
the  labor  camps.  In  addition  to  their  permanent  camps  they  have 
organized  quite  a  number  of  mobile  camps.  I  visited  two  of  the 
mobile  camps,  at  least. 

The  Employment  Service  at  Santa  Barbara  showed  me  some  figures 
about  shortages  in  the  San  Joaquin  Valley  and  I  tried  to  find  what 
those  figures  were  based  on.  I  have  a  suspicion  they  are  based  on  the 
same  sort  of  information  that  we  have  been  using  as  evidence  of  the 
need  for  agricultural  workers  in  the  past.  We  just  go  out  and  ask  the 
f aimers  how  many  they  need.  Here  is  an  illustration — a  few  weeks 
ago  the  farmers  in  the  Everglades  area  made  an  appeal  to  the  Governor 
of  Florida  for  5,000  additional  workers.  A  meeting  of  these  farmers 
was  called  and  when  they  got  down  to  brass  tacks  it  was  found  that 
they  bad  as  many  workers  as  last  year  but  they  weren't  quite  as  good. 
They  have  been  accustomed  to  an  oversupply,  just  as  the  sugar  com- 
panies and  the  Associated  Farmers  of  California  have  been  accustomed 
to  an  oversupply  of  labor.  I  hear  something  about  shortages  in 
Montana  and  Idaho.  I  am  rather  inclined  to  believe  that  if  I  had 
the  necessary  equipment  I  could  go  to  the  San  Joaquin  Valley  ri«;ht 
now  and  find  the  necessary  number  of  Mexican  workers  to  supply  that 
need  in  Montana  and  Idaho,  and  if  I  couldn't  find  them  in  the  San 
Joaquin  Valley  I  certainly  could  find  them  in  Los  Angeles  County. 
I  don't  think  there  is  any  question  about  that. 

The  biggest  difficulty  about  the  matter  is  we.  do  not  have  the 
machinery,  as  yet,  for  the  mobilizmg  of  our  supply  of  agricultural 
workers.  I  do  not  want  it  to  be  understood  that  we  are  criticizing 
the  present  administration  of  the  Employment  Service.  I  think  it  is 
a  very  efficient  administration,  but  its  work  has  been  under  way  on  a 
national  basis  only  about  4  months,  and  it  has  been  humanly  im- 


possible  with  the  facilities  at  its  disposal  to  organize  an  adequate 
service  for  agricultural  workers  in  such  a  short  time.  I  think  one  of 
the  biggest  tasks  confronting  us  is  the  mobilization  of  our  existing 
supply  of  agricultural  workers.  In  the  past,  we  haven't  faced  the 
problem  because  we  have  had  an  oversupply,  and  that's  the  reason 
why  we  do  not  have  information.  Organizations  like  the  Great 
Western  Sugar  Co.  have  never  taken  us  mto  their  confidence;  they 
have  recruited  the  labor  in  their  own  way,  and  consequently  our  whole 
agricultural  labor  situation  has  been  in  such  a  chaotic  condition. 

I  think  that  the  importing  of  an  additional  number  of  Mexican 
workers  will  further  confuse  a  very  difficult  situation.  It  will  make  it 
more  difficult  to  struggle  with  the  existing  unemployment  problem 
among  the  Mexicans  on  our  side  of  the  border.  That  is  still  an  uphill 
battle.  Discrimination  is  just  as  rife  as  it  has  ever  been  in  the  policies 
of  the  aircraft  corporations  in  Los  Angeles  County.  I  noticed  in  the 
past  2  weeks  a  number  of  trained  boys  left  Los  Angeles  and  went  to 
San  Antonio  because  they  couldn't  find  work,  m  spite  of  the  fact  that 
the  aircraft  corporations  are  talking  about  employing  women  and 
children,  and  about  opening  nursery  schools  for  the  children  of  em- 
ployed mothers.  Yet  there  are  a  large  number  of  Mexicans  who  are 
available  for  that  type  of  work  but  whom  they  are  unwilling  to  employ. 

In  view  of  the  fact  that  we  still  have  this  large  problem  of  unemploy- 
ment and  since  we  have  not  been  able  to  provide  adequate  oppor- 
tunities for  the  employment  of  Mexicans  already  in  our  country,  I 
think  it  would  be  a  grave  mistake  to  import  an  additional  supply  of 
Mexican  labor.  I  think  we  will  find  nil  the  agricultural  labor  we  need 
as  soon  as  we  set  up  the  proper  machinery  for  mobilizing  it,  as  soon 
as  we  are  ready  to  face  the  transportation  problem,  and  as  soon  as 
all  these  large  farming  organizations,  the  Associated  Farmers,  the 
sugar-beet  growers,  and  so  forth,  are  willing  to  cooperate  in  an  effort 
to  make  the  best  of  the  existing  labor  supply. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  Monsignor.  Mr.  Montavon,  I  under- 
stand you  want  to  say  a  few  words. 


Mr.  Montavon.  I  came  rather  to  be  with  Monsignor  O'Grady  while 
he  was  testifying.     I  am  deeply  interested  in  this  whole  problem. 

The  Chairman.  In  what  way  are  you  connected  with  the  problem? 

Mr.  Montavon.  I  am  director  of  the  legal  department  of  the 
National  Catholic  Welfare  Conference.  It  is  an  association  of  bishops 
in  the  United  States  Catholic  Church.  Since  early  in  the  twenti?.s 
the  Welfare  Conference  has  had  a  very  great  interest  in  the  Mexican 
situation  largely  due  to  an  effort  to  harmonize  the  position  of  the 
Catholic  Church  with  principles  that  were  acceptable.  I  became 
attached  to  this  work  about  the  end  of  1925.  Prior  to  that  time,  I 
had  spent  10  years  in  the  Latin-American  countries  and  knew  them 
pretty  well,  first  as  a  commercial  attache  and  later  as  an  executive 
representative  of  one  of  the  oil  companies.  In  the  Mexican  question 
I  have  another  interest,  I  am  a  counsel  for  the  Office  of  the  Coordi- 
nator of  American  Affairs  and  I  think  evidence  is  growing  that  it  is 
not  only  a  question  of  labor  for  the  seasonal  agricultural  industry, 


but  it  is  being  made  the  basis  of  what  might  develop  into  a  political 
situation,  both  here  and  abroad.  That  is,  there  is  propaganda  among 
the  Mexican  population  against  our  war  purposes  in  this  country,  I 
believe,  and  there  is  also  propaganda  based  on  the  situation  of  the 
Mexican  in  this  country  and  other  countries. 

It  seems  to  me  after  tins  recent  visit  to  San  Antonio,  what  we  have 
is  exploitation,  rather  crude  and  sordid,  of  an  oversupply  of  labor — 
labor  that  is  worth  so  little  that  very  little  effort  is  made  to  conserve 
it.  So  that  you  have  a  great  residue  of  labor  that  through  mal- 
nutrition, unsanitary  conditions,  lack  of  education,  is  being  reduced 
to  uselessness.  The  residue  of  that  labor,  perhaps  as  many  as  20,000 
or  30,000  people  in  San  Antonio  aloue,  are  living  in  swamps  in  miser- 
able huts;  they  can't  even  rent  a  room  in  the  buildings  constructed 
by  the  Housing  Administration.  I  think  that  rather  than  bring  new 
labor  from  Mexico  the  effort  should  be  made  by  the  agriculture 
interests  to  conserve  the  labor  that  has  been  brought  from  Mexico 
and  I  don't  think  anything  at  all  worth  while  has  been  done  along 
that  line.  The  remedy,  of  course,  ultimately,  for  transient  labor  of 
this  kind  would  be  along  the  lines  pursued  by  the  present  Farm  Se- 
curity Administration  with  its  camps  and  services.  Those  camps 
could  be  developed  into  cooperative  communities  which  would  make 
it  possible  for  these  families  to  live  near  the  place  of  fieir  chief  em- 
ployment throughout  the  year.  In  that  way  they  would  acquire 
the  social  protection  that  they  don't  now  have  in  the  slums.  They 
are  not  able  to  send  their  children  to  school.  They  don't  have  any 
sanitary  conditions  worth  while.  A  great  number  of  families  in 
San  Antonio,  through  the  work  of  the  Housing  Administration,  have 
really  been  driven  beyond  the  limitation  of  sewers,  sanitation,  and 
clean  water.  Out  of  the  lumber  from  the  houses  torn  down,  they 
are  now  building  new  shacks  beyond  the  limits  of  San  Antonio  be- 
cause they  are  so  poor  then  can't  rent  rooms  in  the  housing  project 
which  has  been  constructed.  It  is  a  very  admirable  project.  I  am 
not  criticizing  the  housing  project,  but  am  giving  an  example  of  the 
extreme  poverty  these  people  have  to  live  in. .  And  where  we  can't 
support  labor  and  have  no  interest  in  supporting  it  because  labor  is 
cheap  across  the  border,  I  think  that  populations  should  be  taken 
care  of  if  possible  within  the  vicinity  of  the  place  where  their  em- 
ployment is. 

The  Chairman.  If  you  would  want  to  reduce  this  to  writing,  we 
would  be  glad  to  have  you  do  so. 

Mr.  Montavon.  I  would  be  glad  to  do  that.  I  think  it  is  a  problem 
which  has  many  ramifications,  political  and  social;  the  labor  problem 
is  an  inseparable  part  of  the  defense  problems. 

The  Chairman.  Of  course,  I  agree  with  Father  O'Grady  there 
should  be  a  complete  inventory  of  what  we  have  on  hand,  materials 
as  well  as  men;  we  should  know  accurately  the  untapped  supply  of 
labor  we  have  in  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Montavon.  I  am  fearful  such  an  inventory  will  not  show 
effective  labor.  I  think  a  great  deal  of  labor  which  is  dissipated 
through  maltreatment  could  be  rehabilitated. 

The  Chairman.  Father  O'Grady's  written  statement  will  be  in- 
serted in  the  record  at  tins  point. 

-42— pt.  33- 


TON, D.  C. 

It  is  generally  recognized  that  the  3,000,000  Spanish- Americans  in  the  Southwest 
represent  the  largest  unused  labor  supply  in  this  country. 

On  the  Texas  border  there  is  a  lack  of  employment  opportunities  for  Mexican 
workers.  Time  and  again  one  hears  that  they  cannot  be  employed  in  public 
work  because  they  are  not  citizens.  In  southern  California  large  numbers  of 
Mexicans  and  persons  of  Mexican  extraction  are  unable  to  find  work  because  of 
discrimination  against  them  or  because  of  the  lack  of  opportunities  of  preemploy- 
ment  training.  One  of  our  biggest  social  and  economic  problems  at  the  present 
time  is  to  provide  new  employment  opportunities  for  Mexicans  on  our  Texas 
border,  to  provide  additional  preemployment  training  opportunities  for  them,  and 
to  eliminate  discrimination  against  them  in  southernCalifornia. 

Traditionally,  Mexicans  in  the  Southwest  have  been  regarded  as  agricultural 
workers.  They  have  followed  the  crops  from  the  lower  Rio  Grande  Vallev  up 
to  Dallas,  and  then  west  to  Lubbock  and  El  Paso.  The  character  of  Texas 
agriculture,  particularly  in  the  Rio  Grande  Valley,  has  fostered  the  development 
of  migratory  labor,  and  the  Mexicans  have  provided  a  large  part  of  that  labor 
needed  in  the  State. 

Every  year  a  large  number  of  Mexicans  have  migrated  from  the  cities  of  iexas, 
Arizona,  and  California  to  the  sugar  beet  fields  in  the  valleys  of  the  upper  and 
lower  Platte  Rivers  and  the  Arkansas  River  and  also  to  the  beet  fields  of  Michigan 
and  Illinois.  Mexican  workers  have  also  followed  the  harvest  out  through  the 
Imperial,  San  Joaquin,  and  Sacramento  Valleys  of  California.  Some  of  them  have 
found  their  way  to  Oregon,  Washington,  and  Idaho. 

A  few  years  ago  there  was  a  great  hue  and  cry  about  the  number  of  Mexican 
workers  who  had  become  relief  clients  in  various  American  cities.  Provision  was 
made  for  sending  large  numbers  back  to  Mexico  and  the  border  was  closed  against 
the  introduction  of  additional  Mexican  workers  to  the  United  States.  People  who 
were  interested  in  the  Mexicans  felt  that  the  closing  of  the  border  did  give  us  an 
opportunity  for  improving  the  standard  of  life  of  those  who  were  already  here. 
They  felt  that  it  did  give  the  Mexicans  a  chance  of  developing  their  own  organiza- 
tions and  their  own  leadership.  But  the  improvement  of  the  economic  conditions 
of  the  Mexicans  has  been  by  no  means  an  easy  task.  We  have  had  the  question 
of  limited  opportunities  in  the  cities.  A  number  of  cities  with  large  Mexican 
populations  frankly  did  not  want  any  new  industries.  They  felt  that  this  would 
bring  a  demand  for  higher  wage  standards.  It  has  also  been  a  difficult  task  to 
improve  the  condition  of  the  agricultural  laborers  because  of  the  type  of  work  in 
which  thev  are  engaged. 

The  methods  of  recruiting  Mexican  agricultural  workers  have  been  designed  to 
keep  their  wages  as  low  as  possible.  At  a  recent  meeting  in  a  county  not  far  from 
El  Paso  a  prominent  citizen  stated  the  matter  quite  bluntly  when  he  said,  "You 
know,  we  can  employ  Mexicans  for  20  cents  an  hour — that  is  high  wages  for  them — 
and  we  can  get  them  in  and  out  in  a  very  short  time." 

When  Mexican  workers  were  on  relief,  local  relief  directors  saw  to  it  that 
they  were  removed  from  the  relief  rolls  long  before  the  crops  were  ready  for  har- 
vesting. In  some  counties  in  Colorado  they  were  off  the  relief  rolls  on  April  1  in 
spite  of  the  fact  that  they  usually  did  not  receive  their  sugar  contracts  until 
July  1.  ,     ,      , 

There  is  every  reason  for  believing  that  these  same  methods  of  recruiting  agri- 
cultural labor  were  employed  in  south  Texas  during  the  past  2  months  by  agents 
of  the  sugar  companies  from  Illinois,  Michigan,  and  Colorado.  For  instance, 
workers  recruited  by  the  Lake  Shore  Sugar  Co.  of  Holland,  Mich.,  arrived  more 
than  a  month  before  operations  could  possibly  begin.  They  did  not  have  sufficient 
clothing  and  were  compelled  to  live  in  the  most  unsanitary  conditons.  Many  of 
them  were  sheltered  in  abandoned  coal  sheds.  In  all,  nearly  600  Spanish- American 
workers  have  been  stranded  in  this  area. 

The  sugar  companies  have  wanted  to  secure  as  large  a  supply  of  Mexicans  as 
they  possibly  could.  I  know  for  a  fact  that  the  Great  Western  Sugar  Co.  has 
encouraged  workers  to  move  out  to  the  Platte  River  Valleys  some  weeks  before 
contracts  were  available  for  them.  In  fact,  the  individual  worker  did  not  know 
whether  or  not  he  would  secure  a  contract  until  the  very  last  moment. 

The  agents  of  sugar  companies,  numbering  some  130,  have  been  active  in 
Texas  during  the  past  2  months  in  recruiting  Mexican  labor.  These  agents  have 
to  post  a  bond  of  $5,000  to  insure  return  transportation  to  the  worker;  they  have 


to  pay  an  annual  State  occupational  tax  of  $1,000,  and  also  a  sum  ranging  from 
$100  to  $300  for  the  privilege  of  operating  in  individual  counties.  I  understand 
that  these  out-of-State  agents  charge  each  worker  recruited  the  sum  of  $2  for  a  job. 

There  are  various  estimates  of  the  number  of  workers  who  have  been  recruited 
from  Texas  to  the  northern  beet  fields  during  the  past  2  months.  At  a  meeting  in 
San  Antonio  last  week  I  heard  a  number  of  people  close  to  the  situation  say  that 
they  felt  the  number  recruited  was  about  40,000.  I  am  inclined  to  believe  that 
most  of  them  were  recruited  from  cities  and  a  very  considerable  number  from  the 
city  of  San  Antonio.  Skilled  workers  of  all  kinds  were  included — painters, 
carpenters,  masons,  garment  workers,  etc.  Whether  the  number  is  20,000 — which 
seems  to  be  the  figure  given  by  the  authorities  here  in  Washington — or  40,000, 
nobody  knows  exactly.  So  far  nobody  knows  the  exact  labor  needs  of  the  sugar 

I  was  told  only  yesterday  that  there  are  evidences  of  great  labor  shortages  in 
Idaho  and  Montana  and  my  answer  was  that  if  we  could  only  mobilize  the  unem- 
ployed Mexicans  we  could  easily  meet  the  labor  shortage  of  those  two  States  and 
still  have  a  large  number  of  them  unemployed. 

The  officials  of  the  South  Texas  Chamber  of  Commerce  have  been  spending 
considerable  time  in  Washington  telling  us  about  the  labor  shortages  in  south 
Texas.  Within  the  past  10  days  I  have  had  an  opportunity  of  visiting  four  labor 
camps  in  south  Texas — all  the  way  from  Corpus  Christi  to  the  neighborhood  of 
Brownsville.  In  each  camp  I  talked  to  the  chief  of  the  labor  crews.  These  crews 
varied  from  20  to  40  men  each.  The  vegetable  and  fruit  season  in  the  lower  valley 
was  about  over  and  the  workers  were  moving  north  in  the  direction  of  Corpus 
Christi.  Each  of  the  chiefs  of  the  labor  crews  interviewed  told  me  that  he  had 
about  the  same  number  of  workers  as  last  year.  A  number  of  the  workers  ex- 
pected to  return  to  Laredo  and  await  the  cotton  crop  in  late  July  and  August. 
Some  stated  that  they  intended  to  follow  the  vegetable  crops  north  to  Dallas  and 
later  return  for  the  cotton  season.  From  the  chiefs  of  labor  crews,  from  the  camp 
directors,  and  from  those  with  whom  I  talked  on  the  streets  and  on  the  farms,  I 
learned  that  about  the  same  number  of  workers  had  come  in  this  year  as  last  year 
and  there  was  no  real  shortage  of  labor.  All  felt  that  they  would  have  a  sufficient 
number  of  workers  to  harvest  the  cotton  crop. 

One  must  not  get  the  impression  that  agriculture  in  the  Rio  Grande  Valley,  or 
for  that  matter  throughout  the  State  of  Texas,  depends  entirely  on  Mexican  labor. 
A  considerable  part  of  the  labor  is  recruited  from  Oklahoma  and  Arkansas. 
Workers  from  these  two  States  come  down  with  their  families  to  the  lower  Rio 
Grande  in  November.  They  follow  the  fruit  and  vegetable  harvest  north;  they 
return  south  again  to  the  valley  for  cotton,  and  follow  the  cotton  crop  north  and 
west  as  far  as  El  Paso. 

Last  February  a  number  of  leaders  in  the  El  Paso  area  came  to  Washington  in 
order  to  bring  pressure  to  bear  on  the  Government  to  secure  workers  from  Mexico. 
The  Employment  Service  out  there  told  them  about  the  large  supply  of  labor  that 
was  available  in  northern  New  Mexico.  They  said  they  did  not  want  these 
workers — they  had  been  on  Work  Projects  Administration  and  were  no  longer 
willing  to  work. 

The  Associated  Farmers  of  California,  I  understand,  would  also  like  to  have  an 
additional  supply  of  Mexican  workers.  On  what  do  they  base  their  request? 
Three  weeks  ago  I  visited  five  camps  for  migratory  farm  workers  in  the  San 
Joaquin  Valley  in  California.  Four  of  the  camps  were  operated  by  the  Federal 
Government  and  one  by  a  private  individual.  The  first  camp  visited  had  200 
migratory  families,  25  percent  of  them  unemployed.  The  second  camp  had  160 
migratory  families,  40  percent  of  them  were  working  3  to  4  days  a  week.  A  third 
camp  visited  had  130  families,  all  working.  There  was,  however,  no  evidence 
of  a  labor  shortage.  The  padrone  who  operated  the  private  camp  had  been  able 
to  find  work  for  half  of  his  100  families.  Of  the  1,660  families  in  all  the  camps 
operated  by  the  Farm  Security  Administration  in  California,  44  percent  were 
unemployed  on  April  15. 

Tt  is  really  impossible  to  give  any  complete  picture  of  the  agricultural  labor 
situation  so  far  as  it  involves  Mexican  workers.  The  demands  of  those  who  would 
import  additional  Mexican  workers  into  this  country  at  the  present  time  is  not 
supported  by  such  meager  evidence  as  we  have  on  hand.  It  looks  very  much  like 
a  move  on  the  part  of  certain  elements  to  keep  the  wages  of  farm  workers,  and 
particularly  of  Mexican  farm  workers,  down  to  the  lowest,  possible  level. 

On  the  whole,  the  employment  service  in  the  various  States  has  not  been  close 
to  the  agricultural  situation.     Just  to  mention  a  few  States: 


In  California  the  employment  service  has  hardly  touched  the  problem  of  agri- 
cultural labor.  The  workers  drift  into  the  State:  they  try  to  find  their  own  jobs 
as  best  they  can.  I  have  seen  workers  spend  days  and  days  driving  around  from 
one  farm  to  another  in  an  effort  to  find  employment. 

The  employment  service  in  Colorado  has  had  only  the  most  limited  contact  with 
the  farm-labor  situation. 

The  employment  service  in  Florida  has  just  made  a  beginning  this  year. 

The  employment  service  in  Texas  has  made  greater  progress,  I  believe,  than 
any  other  State  in  dealing  with  the  very  difficult  problems  of  agricultural  labor. 

Now  what  is  the  result?  It  is  simply  this:  They  do  not  have  adequate  ma- 
chinery at  hand  for  the  mobilizing  of  agricultural  workers. 

I  do  not  want  to  criticize  the  present  administration  of  the  Employment 
Service.  I  believe  that  Mr.  Corson  has  done  very  excellent  work  in  his  short 
period  in  office.  But  he  simply  has  not  had  the  staff  to  undertake  the  Herculean 
task  of  mobilizing  agricultural  labor.  He  knows  the  weaknesses  of  his  service 
as  well  as  anybody  else.  The  employment  service  is  now  charged  with  the 
responsibility  of  mobilizing  the  manpower  of  America.  Its  first  and  most  impor- 
tant job  is  agricultural  labor.  It  is  now  face  to  face  with  this  task  and  cannot 
possibly  sidestep  it. 

There  are  many  reasons  why  we  have  not  been  able  to  organize  this  agricultural 
labor  supply.  In  the  first  place,  the  large  farms  in  California,  Texas,  Colorado, 
and  other  beet  sugar  States,  did  not  want  an  organized  agricultural  labor  market. 
Even  if  we  had  the  best  employment  service  that  could  be  devised,  they  would  not 
use  it.     They  do  not  want  to  use  it  today  if  they  can  avoid  it. 

The  only  real  evidence  I  find  of  serious  concern  on  the  part  of  individual  farmers 
regarding  the  agricultural  labor  supply  is  their  concern  about  transportation. 
I  find  that  farmers  in  the  Everglades  region  of  Florida  have  been  providing  trans- 
portation for  their  workers  to  and  from  their  work.  The  same  is  true  of  the  farm- 
ers in  Texas.  In  California,  however,  the  farmers  are  not  showing  any  con- 
sciousness of  the  transportation  problem  which  shows  that  they  are  not  very  much 
concerned  about  the  supply  of  agricultural  labor. 

We  are  facing  a  hard,  uphill  job  in  providing  employment  opportunities  and  of 
improving  the  standard  of  life  of  Mexicans  in  this  country  at  the  present  time. 
Do  we  want  to  complicate  this  problem  by  bringing  in  an  additional  supply  of 
Mexican  labor?  The  20,000  to  40,000  workers  who  have  been  recruited  from 
T^xas  for  the  beet  fields  to  the  north  will  be  back  in  their  old  haunts  in  November. 
There  will  be  few  jobs  for  them.  They  must  be  subsidized  for  many  months  in 
order  to  be  ready  for  the  beet  fields  again  in  the  spring. 

What  has  been  done  in  a  limited  way  in  California,  in  Texas,  and  in  Florida, 
by  the  Farm  Security  Administration  through  its  labor  homes,  gives  hope  that 
some  day  we  may  be  able  to  stabilize  our  agricultural  populations;  that  we  may 
devise  a  plan  in  which  it  will  not  be  necessary  for  large  numbers  of  families  to 
migrate  long  distances  each  year,  to  the  detriment  of  their  health  and  their  whole 
standard  of  family  life. 

If  the  interests  that  are  working  for  the  introduction  of  additional  Mexican 
workers  to  this  country  succeed  in  their  objective,  I  believe  they  will  also  succeed 
in  getting  around  any  standards  that  may  be  set  for  them  in  the  employment  of 
these  workers. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Chairman,  if  each  of  the  speakers  will  take  say 
3  to  5  minutes  to  describe  the  position  of  his  agency  with  respect 
to  the  question  of  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor,  this  will  open 
the  subject  and  we  can  then  expect  that  the  members  of  the  committee 
and  staff  will  have  various  questions. 

We  might  start  with 

Dr.  Lamb  (interposing).  May  I  interrupt  a  moment  to  say  that  I 
notice  there  are  representatives  of  other  agencies  present  who  might 
want  to  sit  in,  and  who  may  want  to  answer  or  ask  some  questions 
later.  I  would  like  to  take  notice  of  the  presence  of  Mr.  Elmer 
Rowalt  of  the  War  Relocation  Authority,  representing  Mr.  Milton 
Eisenhower;  I  don't  know  whether  Mr.  Ennis  wants  to  be  officially 
noted  as  being  here,  or  not? 

Mr.  Ennis.  No,  Dr.  Lamb;  Mr.  Devany  represents  the  Depart- 


Mr.  Sparkman.  May  I  interrupt  the  proceedings,  Mr.  Chairman, 
to  say  that  it  is  necessary  that  I  attend  a  very  important  meeting 
of  the  Military  Affairs  Committee.  I  will  have  to  go  now  and  regret 
very  much  not  being  present  during  this  conference.  It  may  be  that 
I  will  be  able  to  get  back  later,  but  I  do  want  you  to  excuse  me. 

The  Chairman.  Of  course  the  military  takes  precedence,  so  you 
will  be  excused. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Thank  you. 


The  Chairman.  Members  of  the  Conference  on  the  Importation 
of  Mexican  Labor  are  as  follows: 

Mrs.  Clara  M.  Beyer,  assistant  director,  Division  of  Labor  Stand- 
ards, Department  of  Labor. 

Mr.  Collis  Stocking,  assistant  director,  Bureau  of  Employment 
Security,  Social  Security  Board. 

Mr.  Ernesto  Galarza,  chief,  Division  of  Labor  and  Social  Informa- 
tion,' Pan-American  Union. 

Mr.  Walter  H.  C.  Laves,  director,  Division  of  Inter-American 
Activities  in  the  United  States,  Coordinator  of  Inter-American  Affairs. 

Mr.  William  J.  Rogers,  chief,  Division  of  Labor  and  Rural  Indus- 
tries, Office  of  Agricultural  War  Relations,  Department  of  Agricultme. 

Mr.  Angel  Rosas,  labor  attache,  Mexican  Embassy. 

Mr.  Alvin  Roseman,  assistant  to  the  administrator,  Federal  Security 

Mr.  Allan  C.  Devany,  chief  examiner,  Immigration  and  Natural- 
ization Service,  Department  of  Justice. 

Mr.  George  H.  Winters,  assistant  chief,  Division  of  American 
Republics,  State  Department. 

Rt.  Rev.  Monsignor  John  O'Grady,  secretary,  National  Conference 
of  Catholic  Charities. 

Mr.  William  F.  Montavon,  director  of  the  legal  department  of  the 
National  Catholic  Welfare  Conference. 

Mr.  Elmer  Rowalt,  assistant  to  the  Director,  War  Relocation 


Mr.  Arnold.  Now,  Mr.  Stocking,  if  you  will  take  a  few  minutes 
to  describe  the  position  of  your  agency  with  respect  to  the  question 
of  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor;  we  will  appreciate  it. 


Mr.  Stocking.  At  the  beginning  of  this  season  it  was  thought  for 
some 'time  that  it  might  be  possible  to  use  some  of  the  Japanese  that 
were  being  evacuated  from  the  coast,  for  sugar-beet  work.  It  is  esti- 
mated about  120,000  Japanese  are  to  be  evacuated;  of  those  there  are 
about  28,000,  I  believe,  that  have  had  some  experience  in  agricultural 


It  was  decided,  however,  by  the  War  Relocation  Authority,  that 
the  Japanese  would  not  be  available.     That  decision  was  made  definite 

1  believe,  sometime  last  month,  although  I  am  not  sure  of  the  date. 
This  decision  made  it  necessary  to  try  to  find  other  workers.     We 

did  redouble  our  recruiting  effort,  insofar  as  funds  permitted,  to  meet 
the  demand  for  workers  for  the  sugar-beet  fields. 

However,  on  the  eve  of  the  time  for  blocking  and  thinning  the 
sugar-beets,  it  was  becoming  increasingly  apparent  that  there  was  a 
danger  of  not  being  able  to  get  a  sufficient  number  of  workers.     About 

2  weeks  ago,  I  believe  it  was,  at  the  time  of  the  meeting  that  you  re- 
ferred to,  held  by  Mr.  Roseman,  we  were  unwilling  to  certify  the 
importation  of  Mexicans;  that  is  to  say,  we  were  unwilling  to  say  that 
the  labor  could  not  be  obtained  here. 

On  Sunday,  2  weeks  ago,  a  meeting  was  held  in  Cincinnati  with 
our  representatives  from  sugar-beet  areas,  at  which  they  developed 
plans  to  meet  the  situation  without  importing  Mexicans.  We  dis- 
cussed these  plans  with  the  sugar-beet  growers  and  they  indicated  a 
willingness  to  cooperate  with  us  in  the  recruiting  program. 

Briefly,  we  were  going  to  try  to  locate  a  sufficient  supply  of  workers 
in  Arkansas,  Louisiana,  Oklahoma,  Texas,  and  New  Mexico,  and  the 
sugar-beet  growers  agreed  to  pay  the  transportation  of  the  workers 
recruited  from  the  point  of  recruitment  to  the  point  of  employment, 
and  return. 

We  were  to  arrange  for  what  we  call  pooled  interviews;  we  get  the 
people  together  that  are  suitable  for  the  work  to  be  done,  and  the 
representatives  of  the  growers  appear  and  hire  the  workers  in  groups. 
When  we  really  started  to  work  on  this  they  turned  in  orders  for 
2,200  workers. 

The  first  2  days  of  our  recruiting  effort  we  recruited  something  m 
the  neighborhood  of  1,100  workers,  and  felt  certain  that  we  would  be 
able  to  fill  the  remainder  of  the  orders. 

However,  we  did  not  at  that  time  have  orders  from  all  the  sugar- 
beet  growers  that  needed  workers,  and  a  survey  of  the  labor  market 
conditions  by  the  head  of  our  Farm  Placement  Service  indicated  that 
we  would  not  be  able  to  meet  the  full  needs.  This  survey  indicated 
that  there  would  be  a  deficit  of  probably  3,000  in  California,  1,500  in 
Idaho,  and  1,500  in  Montana.  _       m     m 

On  the  basis  of  the  estimate  of  a  deficit  of  workers,  which  inci- 
dentally was  a  great  deal  smaller  than  the  estimates  of  the  sugar-beet 
growers  of  the  number  of  workers  they  would  need  to  import,  we  cer- 
tified these  areas  as  being  areas  in  which  we  could  not  get  enough  labor 
to  meet  the  immediate  demands. 

Since  then  we  have  received  a  notification  from  our  representative 
in  Oregon  that  Japanese  workers  will  be  made  available  in  that  area, 
and  that  the  sugar  companies  are  paying  transportation  costs  from 
Portland,  Oreg.,  to  Malheur  County,  Oreg.,  where  the  workers  are  to 
be  used.  The  employers  are  buying  beds  and  furnishing  sleeping  ac- 
commodations for  300  workers,  and  furnishing  this  equipment  to  the 
Farm  Security  Administration  and  setting  up  the  necessary  facilities 
for  their  employment. 

It  may  be  that  this  indicates  a  change  of  attitude  on  the  part  of 
the  War  Relocation  authorities,  and  it  is  not  impossible  that  the  avail- 
able Japanese  workers  may  alleviate  the  situation  in  other  States. 


The  Chairman.  At  the  invitation  of  the  committee,  we  have  Mr. 
Kosas,  labor  attache  of  the  Mexican  Embassy,  present  here  as  an 

Mr.  Arnold.  I  don't  want  to  specify  the  order  in  which  any  of  you 
speak  on  this  problem;  just  proceed  as  you  like. 


Mr.  Devany.  Well,  since  I  am  next  in  order,  I  will  go  ahead. 
First  I  would  like  to  express  the  regret  of  Major  Schofield  at  his 
inability  to  attend  the  meeting  today. 


I  think  it  would  be  well  to  mention  first  the  basis  for  the  position 
of  the  Immigration  Service  from  a  statutory  standpoint.  Section  3  of 
the  act  of  February  5,  1917,  excludes  from  the  United  States  both 
skilled  and  unskilled  labor.  As  to  skilled  labor,  there  is  authority  for 
waivers  as  an  excluding  ground,  where  a  showing  can  be  made  that 
labor  of  a  particular  kind  is  unavailable  in  the  United  States. 

As  to  unskilled  labor,  there  is  a  provision  in  the  statute,  known  as 
the  ninth  proviso,  which  permits  the  Attorney  General,  in  his  discre- 
tion, to  permit  such  persons  to  enter  the  United  States  under  such 
conditions  as  he  may  wish  to  impose. 

As  regards  sugar-beet  labor,  which  has  been  classed  as  unskilled 
labor,  if  such  admissions  are  authorized,  it  is  under  that  ninth  proviso. 

In  determining  whether  such  labor  should  enter,  we  have  for  the 
most  part  relied  upon  the  United  States  Employment  Service  to  cer- 
tify to  us  the  need  for  such  labor.  However,  the  process  for  our  com- 
ing into  the  case  in  the  first  place  is  that  the  applications  are  sub- 
mitted to  the  Immigration  Service  by  the  various  individuals  request- 
ing such  labor.  These  formal  applications  come  through  our  field 
offices.  Our  various  field  offices  conduct,  in  some  cases,  an  independ- 
ent investigation.  In  others,  where  conditions  justify,  reference  is 
made  entirely  to  the  United  States  Employment  Service. 

Whenever  a  report  is  received  from  that  organization  it  is  submitted 
to  the  central  office  of  the  Service,  together  with  any  independent  in- 
vestigation conducted  by  the  Service. 


Action  has  not  been  taken  on  any  of  these  cases  relating  to  Mexican 
labor,  to  date.  We  have,  however,  on  hand  at  the  present  time,  a 
certification  from  the  United  States  Emplo3Tment  Service  of  the  need 
for  6,000  Mexican  laborers. 

The  Immigration  Service  was  represented  at  the  meeting  of  the 
committee  of  the  various  departments  of  the  Government  considering 
this  problem,  at  which  time  consideration  was  given  to  the  conditions 
which  would  prevail  in  the  event  Mexican  labor  were  permitted  to  enter. 

So  far,  this  matter  has  not  been  presented  to  the  State  Department 
for  the  purpose  of  requesting  the  Mexican  Government  to  permit 
such  labor  to  enter  the  United  States.  This  has  not  been  done  for 
the  following  reasons,  first,  that  the  exact  conditions  have  not  been 
agreed  upon  to  date  so  far  as  the  Immigration  Service  knows;  second, 


tbe  distribution  of  such  labor,  if  permitted  to  enter,  has  not  been 
finally  determined ;  third,  the  sugar-beet  employers  have  not  indicated 
any  agreement  on  conditions  which  might  prevail  if  Mexicans  are 
permitted  to  enter. 

I  might  mention  the  fact  that  the  Service  has,  on  the  other  border — 
the  Canadian  border — during  the  past  year  considered  applications 
for  the  admission  of  Canadian  woodsmen,  and  we  have,  from  time 
to  time,  permitted  such  laborers  to  enter  with  the  consent  of  the 
Canadian  Government. 

So  far  as  concerns  labor  in  the  United  States,  and  its  availability, 
I  have  stated  that  we  generally  rely  upon  the  U.  S.  Employment 
Service  for  advice  in  this  regard.  The  Immigration  Service  does 
believe,  however,  that  the  use  of  Japanese  labor  has  not  been  con- 
sidered in  its  full  extent,  and  that  before  Mexican  labor  is  permitted 
to  enter,  if  in  the  general  picture  it  is  found  that  such  labor  is  needed, 
the  advisability  again  of  considering  Japanese  labor  should  be  ex- 

I  thank  you. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Rogers,  Chief  of  the  Division  of  Labor  and  Rural 
Industries,  Office  of  Agricultural  War  Relations,  Department  of 


Mr.  Rogers.  Mr.  Chairman,  probably  I  should  start  my  statement 
by  going  back  about  a  year,  at  which  time  the  Department  of  Agri- 
culture began  to  plan  a  production  program  which  would  secure  the 
production  of  the  kind  of  Crops  that  were  most  needed  in  our  entire 
war  effort,  food  for  both  ourselves,  and  our  armed  forces,  and,  since 
then,  our  Allies. 


That  program  was  inaugurated  last  fall,  in  September.  It  was 
revised  a  time  or  two  in  the  light  of  changing  conditions.  The  purpose 
of  this  expanded  program  is,  of  course,  to  get  not  just  more  of  every- 
thing, but  more  of  the  kind  of  things  that  are  needed.  It  involved 
not  only  an  over-all  increase  in  agricultural  production,  but  a  marked 
shift  from  one  type  of  production  to  another  type  in  many  sections 
of  the  country. 

Two  of  the  crops,  for  example,  which  are  perhaps  of  importance  to 
this  discussion,  are  sugar  beets  and  long-staple  cotton. 

In  the  case  of  sugar  beets,  we  have  asked  for  an  unlimited  increase 
in  acreages.  We  had  hoped  to  get  an  average  increase  of  around 
40  percent.  Whether  or  not  that  actually  has  been  achieved  will 
depend  upon  some  plantings  that  have  taken  place  or  have  not  taken 
place  within  the  last  few  days.  The  expansion  in  some  areas  has  been 
far  greater  than  the  average  of  40  percent.  Some  of  the  larger  ex- 
pansion has  been  in  States  and  in  regions  in  which  there  apparently 
has  not  been  a  great  deal  of  local  labor  available  to  take  care  of  so 
lar^e  an  increase. 


In  the  case  of  long-staple  cotton,  if  I  am  not  mistaken,  the  limiting 
factor  is  the  amount  of  seed  that  we  have.  Long-staple  cotton,  as 
I  understand,  is  restricted  for  use  only  in  our  vital  war  production. 

There  are  other  crops  that  have  been  expanded  materially,  par- 
ticularly the  oil  crops  such  as  soybeans  and  peanuts. 

The  Department  of  Agriculture  is  interested  from  the  standpoint 
of  securing  sufficient  labor  to  take  care  of  these  crops.  That  has  been 
our  approach  all  along.  We  realize  that  more  labor,  at  least  more 
man-hours,  will  be  required.  Part  of  those  additional  man-hours  can, 
no  doubt,  be  secured  through  a  slight  lengthening  of  the  day  of  work 
on  the  part  of  the  farmers,  if  that  can  be  lengthened  very  much  more; 
and  through  better  utilization  of  the  workers  available. 

Even  with  that  it  is  our  opinion  some  additional  workers  would  be 
required  above  those  that  we  have  had  in  the  past. 


One  of  the  factors  that  makes  the  agricultural  labor  problem 
different  from  the  industrial  labor  problem  is  the  seasonality  which 
occurs  simply  because  of  nature.  In  the  past  there  has  been  a  varia- 
tion of  approximately  three  and  a  half  million  workers  from  the  low 
of  employment,  about  the  1st  of  January,  to  the  peak  of  employment 
which  occurs  from  July  through  October. 

As  we  have  approached  the  problem  of  labor  in  relation  to  our 
production,  we  have  been  working  very  closely  with  the  United  States 
Employment  Service  to  assure  a  supply  of  workers  which  would  be 
adequate  to  meet  our  needs.  As  soon  as  we  establish  these  goals,  we 
have  given  the  information  to  the  Employment  Service  and  worked 
with  them,  and  have  had  our  Department  people  working  with  them 
cooperatively  in  each  State  and  each  community.  We  have  done 
everything  that  we  know  how  to  do  from  the  standpoint  of  working 
out  an  organized  method  of  getting  the  workers  where  they  are  needed 
at  the  time  they  are  needed,  within  the  limitations  that  the  Employ- 
ment Service  and  the  Department  have  had. 

I  think  that  is  largely  the  position  of  the  Department. 

I  would  like  to  add,  however,  that  these  agricultural  problems  are 
different  from  almost  any  of  our  manufactured  products.  If  we  have 
a  machine  here  that  is  90  percent  produced,  and  for  some  reason  labor 
isn't  available  to  finish  the  job,  usually  that  machine  will  wait,  and  it 
won't  actually  deteriorate  or  spoil  until  we  do  get  the  labor.  In  the 
case  of  most  of  these  farm  crops,  however,  if  we  don't  have  the  labor 
at  the  time  it  is  needed,  our  crop  is  gone. 

Again  I  might  mention  because  they  are  apparently  of  particular 
interest  to  this  group  that  these  two  crops — you  can  hardly  find  two 
crops  that  are  more  vital  to  us  right  now  than  sugar  beets  and  long 
staple  cotton. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mrs.  Clara  M.  Beyer,  assistant  director,  Division  of 
Labor  Standards,  Department  of  Labor. 



Mrs.  Beyer.  The  interest  of  the  Department  of  Labor  in  this 
problem  is  primarily  that  of  protecting  the  wage  earners  and  trying 
to  improve  the  conditions  of  work. 

We  firmly  believe  that  no  workers  should  be  brought  in  from  Mexico 
until  the  labor  supply  in  this  country  is  fully  utilized.  We  have  no 
measure  ourselves  of  what  the  labor  situation  and  labor  requirements 
in  agriculture  are.  We  depend  upon  the  Employment  Service  for 
those  figures. 

We  know  from  past  experience  that  there  has  been  a  great  deal  of 
exploitation  of  Mexican  workers  in  this  country;  that  the  wages  have 
been  low,  the  conditions  of  work  often  intolerable;  that  they  have  been 
exploited  by  labor  contractors,  and  that  in  general  they  haven't  been 
given  the  square  deal  that  we  expect  for  workers  in  this  country — 
although  many  of  our  own  workers  are  being  exploited  in  the  same  way. 


I  think  it  was  the  feeling  of  the  subcommittee  which  worked  on  these 
labor  standards,  that  if  certain  conditions  were  met  in  this  country 
there  might  not  be  any  need  for  importation  of  Mexican  labor. 
Among  those. conditions  the  committee  spelled  out  that  the  differential 
between  industrial  wages  and  agricultural  wages  should  be  reduced. 
Agricultural  wages  are  too  low  in  relation  to  the  industrial  wages. 

The  Chairman.  Is  anything  being  done  about  that,  Mrs.  Beyer? 
I  think  you  have  hit  the  nail  right  on  the  head  there. 

Mrs.  Beyer.  It  was  discussed  in  this  committee,  but  I  don't  think 
any  solution  was  reached.  In  the  committee's  recommended  stand- 
ards the  minimum  wage  rate  at  which  Mexicans  could  be  brought  into 
the  country  was  considerably  higher  than  the  going  rate  in  agricultural 
areas  today. 

These  minimum  rates  should  aid  in  setting  some  measure  as  to 
what  agricultural  wage  rates  should  be. 

All  of  us  who  work  on  this  problem  of  agricultural  labor  are  im- 
pressed with  the  inadequate  housing  facilities  for  these  workers  in 
the  areas  in  which  there  is  supposedly  a  shortage  of  labor.  We 
cannot  hope  to  hold  labor  in  these  areas  unless  that  housing  is 

The  Farm  Security  Administration  lacks  the  funds  to  do  the  hous- 
ing job  for  these  areas  that  it  has  been  doing  for  the  migratory  labor 
group.  I  think  its  farm  camp  program  has  been  excellent,  and  it 
should  be  expanded  rather  than  reduced  at  this  particular  period. 

In  addition  to  that,  we  know  that  the  Employment  Service  has 
not  had  an  adequate  staff  with  which  to  do  the  recruiting  job  that 
has  to  be  done,  and  this  recruiting  job  is  no  small  proposition.  They 
have  got  to  have  a  staff,  they  have  got  to  have  funds  if  we  are  going 
to  see  that  available  labor  in  this  country  is  brought  into  the  place 
where  it  can  be  used  most  effectively.  Much  more  emphasis  should 
be  given  to  expanding  our  Farm  Placement  Service  in  this  emergency. 



Another  thing  that  we  have  talked  about  before  this  committee  in 
the  past,  and  have  had  hearings  on,  is  the  need  for  regulation  of 
private  contractors  that  are  going  down  to  Mexico  if  we  open  up 
this  question,  to  recruit  the  Mexican  labor  and  bring  them  into  this 
country.  They  are  now  in  Texas  recruiting  labor  for  Michigan  and 
Indiana  and  Ohio.  They  bring  them  in  long  before  the  season  com- 
mences, and  these  people  are  thrown  on  relief  until  such  time  as  the 
crops  are  ready  to  be  taken  care  of.  That  situation  this  year  is  as 
bad  as  it  has  ever  been.  They  have  taken  the  workers  out  of  Texas, 
brought  them  up  to  these  other  areas,  and  kept  them  there  maybe 
for  6  or  7  weeks  before  there  was  anything  for  them  to  do. 

That  situation  should  be  controlled.  There  is  no  Federal  machin- 
ery for  control  at  the  present  time.  It  is  essential  that  the  Tolan 
bill  be  passed  to  give  that  measure  of  control.  If  it  were  passed, 
and  a  very  close  tie-up  with  the  Employment  Service  worked  out, 
the  sugar-beet  companies  and  these  other  companies  would  be  in- 
clined to  work  through  the  Employment  Service,  instead  of  setting 
up  this  private  recruiting  system  that  is  now  demoralizing  the  labor 

The  Chairman.  Mrs.  Beyer,  I  was  just  thinking  that  when  we  go 
before  the  Rules  Committee  you  would  be  a  pretty  good  representa- 
tive of  the  committee  to  get  a  rule  on  H.  R.  5510.  I  want  to  talk  to 
you  about  that  afterward;  I  think  you  would  probably  be  more 
persuasive  than  we  are. 

Mrs.  Beyer.  If  I  could  be  of  any  help  I  would  be  delighted,  Mr. 

We  feel  that  the  Japanese  workers  should  be  used  insofar  as  it  is 
possible  to  use  them,  because  of  the  demoralization  that  is  bound  to 
take  place  among  those  workers  unless  they  are  brought  into  a  job 
relationship.  The  sooner  that  we  can  use  them  effectively,  the  better. 
If  Japanese  workers  can  be  used  in  the  sugar-beet  areas,  or  any  of  these 
other  places,  they  should  be  used  before  labor  is  brought  in  from 


However,  I  think  we  must  be  realistic  about  this  thing,  and  if  the 
Employment  Service  has  found  that  we  cannot  get  the  labor,  then  we 
should  not  let  our  crops  spoil.  However,  if  we  bring  in  Mexican 
workers,  we  should  be  sure  that  those  workers  are  protected  and  not 
exploited.  It  would  be  most  unfortunate  to  bring  in  Mexican  workers 
now  and  let  them  go  through  what  many  of  the  Mexican  workers 
who  are  in  this  country  at  the  present  time  have  gone  through. 

I  think  the  labor  standards  should  not  only  be  put  into  the  treaty, 
but  that  they  should  be  enforced  in  this  country  so  that  we  can  give 
adequate  protection  to  the  Mexican  workers  while  they  are  here,  and 
see  that  they  get  back  to  their  homes  again  at  no  expense  to  them. 

The  labor  standards  that  have  been  drawn  up  by  this  joint  com- 
mittee, if  .enforced,  and  if  adequate  machinery  for  enforcement  is 
provided,  would  give  that  protection  insofar  as  it  is  possible  for  the 
Government  to  give  it.  But  I  hope  very  much  that  ways  and  means 
will  be  found  that  will  make  it  unnecessary  to  bring  in  large  numbers 
of  Mexicans  at  this  time. 



The  Chairman.  There  is  no  treaty  at  the  present  time  between  the 
Mexican  Government  and  this  Government,  is  there,  as  to  the  impor- 
tation of  labor? 

Mrs.  Beyer.  Probably  I  used  the  word  "treaty"  in  the  wrong 
sense.  I  meant  the  arrangement  that  would  be  made  by  the  Immi- 
gration Service. 

The  Chairman.  It  is  a  peculiar  thing,  Mrs.  Beyer,  we  have  many 
agreements  with  the  Mexican  Government  regarding  boundaries  and 
practically  everything  else  excepting  the  flow  of  human  beings  from 
one  country  to  another.  As  far  as  I  know,  there  is  no  treaty  or  agree- 
ment of  that  kind  between  the  two  Governments.  There  should  be, 
and  when  they  come  in  here  they  should  come  on  a  national  basis. 
It  seems  to  me  it  should  be  understood  between  the  two  Governments 
on  what  basis  they  are  coming  in,  and  that  they  should  be  taken  care 
of  as  well  as  we  are  taking  care  of  our  own  people. 

Mrs.  Beyer.  I  think  that  is  very  important.  We  must  realize 
that  we  haven't  been  taking  care  of  our  own  people  in  this  particular 
situation.  I  think  we  should  make  very  effort  to  take  care  of  them 
and  to  see  if  they  cannot  be  made  to  do  this  job.  They  should  be 
recruited  and  brought  to  the  place  where  their  labor  will  be  effective, 
and  then  returned  to  their  homes  again  and  not  stranded  in  the 
community  where  they  happen  to  work  at  the  time  their  employment 
is  ended. 


The  Chairman.  Mrs.  Beyer,  it  keeps  recurring  to  me  all  the  time, 
and  we  run  up  against  it  in  our  hearings,  that  we  talk  about  so  many 
workers  being  needed  in  California  and  Texas  and  other  States;  but 
we  have,  as  we  know,  and  as  Monsignor  O'Grady  stated  this  morning, 
really  no  complete  inventory  of  just  what  is  needed  in  those  States, 
or  how  much  available  labor  supply  we  have  in  the  States  which  are 
appealing  for  aid. 

Mrs.  Beyer.  That  is  true,  and  that  is  why  it  is  very  important  to 
expand  the  Employment  Service  and  to  expand  the  fact-finding  service 
of  the  Department  of  Agriculture.  We  must  get  those  facts  before 
we  can  make  proper  use  of  our  labor  supply. 


Mr.  Rogers.  I  might  observe  here  that  the  fact-finding  facilities 
of  the  Department  of  Agriculture  will  be  much  further  reduced  the 
first  of  July. 

The  Chairman.  It  is  no  fault  of  this  committee,  Mr.  Rogers. 

Mr.  Rogers.  That  is  right;  I  just  wanted  to  make  that  observation. 

disparity  between  farm  and  industrial  wage  rates 

There  is  one  observation,  Mr.  Congressman,  that  I  would  like  to 
make  in  regard  to  the  wage  rates.  I  don't  think  there  is  any  question 
at  all  of  the  great  disparity  between  farm  wage  rates  and  the  industrial 
wage  rates.  An  examination  of  the  relationship  between  wages, 
both  agricultural  and  industrial  wages,  and  between  certain  other 
factors  in  agriculture,  indicates  that  for  a  good  many  years  farm  wages 


have  tended  to  follow  very  closely  the  farmer's  income,  not  necessarily 
prices,  but  his  cash  income. 

The  wages  have  tended  to  lag  6  to  9  months  behind  the  rise  in  cash 
income,  when  it  goes  up.  When  the  cash  income  goes  down,  they 
follow  it  down,  still  with  a  little  lag.  Up  until  a  few  years  ago  in- 
dustrial wages  bore  a  fairly  constant  relationship  to  farm  wages,  but 
in  the  last  2  or  2%  years  there  has  been  a  growing  disparity  between 
industrial  wage  rates  and  farm  wage  rates 

Dr.  Lamb  (interposing).  While  agricultural  prices  have  been  rising. 

Mr.  Rogers.  Yes;  but  industrial  wages  have  risen  far  out  of  pro- 
portion to  farm  wages.  Which  would  lead  to  one  other  thing:  There 
has  been,  as  you  know,  Dr.  Lamb,  a  constant  rise  in  farm  wages 
generally  in  the  last  3rear,  and  no  doubt  the  farmers  with  better  prices 
can  and  will  pay  some  higher  wages.  But  with  the  present  prices 
you  have,  compared  to  the  industrial  situation,  there  probably  is  a 
limit  to  the  wages  that  the  farmer  can  afford  to  pay  at  the  present 
tune.  Where  that  is  I  don't  know  exactly,  but  there  is  some  limitation 
in  there  and  it  is  a  pretty  big  problem  that  we  have  confronting  us. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Before  going  to  the  next  speaker  I  would  like  to  observe, 
however,  that  we  haven't  seen  any  very  good  figures  on  the  spread, 
for  example,  on  long  staple  cotton,  or  on  short  staple  for  that  matter, 
between  the  prices  received  not  only  for  the  cotton  but  for  the  seed, 
and  the  amounts  paid  for  labor. 


I  have  the  distinct  impression  that  the  amounts  paid  for  labor  have 
tended  to  lag  far  behind  the  income  received  from  both  cotton  and  seed. 

For  example,  in  1939  you  had  about  9-cent  cotton,  I  think;  is  that 

Mr.  Rogers.  I  don't  recall;  I  think  that  is  about  right. 

Dr.  Lamb.  And  you  had,  for  instance,  in  Texas — well,  I  think  it 
would  be  generous  to  say,  50-cent  labor;  40  cents  would  probably 
be  about  right;  how  about  that? 

Mr.  Rogers.  I  believe  you  would  be  a  little  low  on  that. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Fifty  cents  would  certainly  be  about  right,  50  cents  a 
hundred,  around  Corpus  Christi,  for  example;  and  when  cotton  went 
to  17  cents  in  1941  they  were  paying  about  75  cents,  and  that  reluc- 
tantly, for  the  cotton  picked  in  that  part  of  the  State. 

Mr.  Rogers.  Other  parts  of  the  State,  I  believe,  were  paying  higher, 
and  other  States  I  know  were  paying  much  higher. 

Dr.  Lamb.  They  were  paying  85  cents  a  hundred  at  the  beginning 
of  the  season,  and  when  they  had  to  come  up  they  came  up  to  around 

Mr.  Rogers.  Of  course  we  don't  know  yet  what  this  year's  wages 
will  be. 

Dr.  Lamb.  What  is  cotton  selling  for,  that  is,  medium  cotton? 

Mr.  Rogers.  I  am  sorry,  I  don't  know;  I  should  be  able  to  tell  you. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  have  an  impression  that  it  is  well  over  17  cents  at  the 
present  time.  Those  spreads  are  pretty  striking  and  the  price  of  seed 
is  equally  high.  I  don't  know  what  that  is  but  it  is  over  $45  a  ton, 
I  believe,  at  the  present  time. 


Mr.  Rogers.  I  think  that  you  will,  no  doubt,  find  differences  in 
any  one  particular  crop.  I  was  speaking  of  agricultural  income  and 
agricultural  wages  in  general.     No  doubt  you  will  find  variations 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  just  wanted  to  point  out  that  it  looks  as  if  there  was  a 
very  distinct  lag  in  the  rise  of  wages,  as  over  against  prices  and  income 
from  the  crop,  particularly  in  cotton.  In  sugar  beets  the  wages  tend 
to  be  around  the  minimum.  The  prices,  I  presume,  are  more  or  less 
fixed,  as  well  as  the  minimum  wage. 

Mr.  Rogers.  I  believe  that  the  minimum  wage  set  is  within  about 
2  or  3  percent  of  the  increased  price  on  sugar  for  this  year.  There 
may  be  a  slight  variation  above  in  the  sugar  price,  but  the  sugar  wages 
increased  approximately  26  percent  over  the  country  as  a  whole. 

Dr.  Lamb.  But  there  are  great  discrepancies  in  various  part  of  the 
country  within  the  sugar-beet  wage,  are  there  not? 

Mr.  Rogers.  That  is  right. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Particularly  on  an  acreage  basis? 

Mr.  Rogers.  Yes;  these,  I  think,  are  due  in  some  cases  to  the 
method  of  operations  in  contracting,  and  in  other  cases  to  some 
technical  differences  in  the  production. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  wonder  if  there  would  be  any  way  for  us  to  get  hold 
of  a  brief  statement  of  these  wages,  with  some  samples  from  around 
the  country,  and  the  prices  being  received  for  the  crop? 

Mr.  Rogers.  You  mean  the  sugar-beet  wages? 

Dr.  Lamb.  Yes,  and  also  the  cotton. 

Mr.  Rogers.  Yes.  On  your  cotton  wages  for  this  year  you  would 
have  only  those  in  the  case  of  the  cotton-chopping  wage. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Would  it  be  possible  to  get  that,  Mr.  Stocking? 

Mr.  Stocking.  We  could  get  it  from  the  Department  of  Agricul- 

(This  material  was  later  received  and  accepted  for  the  record.  It 
is  printed  on  page  12462.) 

Mr.  Rogers.  Of  course  we  can  give  you  the  general  price  being 
paid  for  sugar,  but  incidentally  your  sugar-beet  grower  never  knows 
for  a  year  after  his  crop  is  in  just  how  much  he  is  going  to  get. 

Dr.  Lamb.  And  of  course  the  sugar-beet  worker  doesn't  know  for 
several  months  after  he  has  done  the  job,  what  he  is  going  to  get 
either.  ' 


Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Galarza? 

Mr  Galarza.  Mr.  Congressman,  to  begin  with,  I  ought  to  make 
it  perfectly  plain  that  the  Pan  American  Union  is  an  international 
body  controlled  by  the  21  American  republics,  and  that  the  remarks 
or  observations  that  I  might  make  here  this  morning  are  in  no  sense 
an  indication  or  a  suggestion  as  to  the  policy  of  the  Pan  American 
Union  on  this  matter,  because  the  Pan  American  Union  could  hardly, 
with  any  propriety,  have  a  policy  on  a  matter  which  at  this  stage  is 
a  subject  of  the  internal  policy  of  the  United  States.  I  wanted  to 
make  that  clear. 

I  am  h'^rcas  chief  of  the  Division  of  Labor  and  Social  Information, 
with  the  consent  and  permission  of  my  chief,  because  we  feel  that  in 
the  position  which  we  occupy,  being  in  touch  with  the  trends  of  opin- 


ion  and  of  research  in  the  international  labor  field,  we  can  probably 
suggest  some  of  the  broader  problems  that  are  involved  in  this 
immediate  question  of  Mexican  immigration  to  the  United  States. 


We  believe — and  I  am  personally  convinced — that  the  solution, 
both  immediate  and  long  term,  that  is  given  to  the  problem  of  the 
coming  of  the  Mexican  worker  to  the  Southwest,  as  well  as  the  ad- 
justment that  he  makes  in  the  United  States,  is,  broadly  speaking,  a 
matter  of  deep  and  significant  interest  not  only  to  the  United  States 
and  Mexico,  but  to  several  other  American  republics  as  well.  It  isn't 
generally  recognized  that  the  United  States  and  Mexico  are  not  the 
only  two  countries  in  the  American  hemisphere  that  have  this  diffi- 
cult and  complex  economic  and  social  problem.  It  even  creates  a 
political  problem  when,  largely  for  economic  reasons,  the  working 
population  of  one  country  floats  over  the  boundary  into  another 
neighboring  area. 

A  similar  problem  exists  in  the  boundary  areas  of  other  parts  of  the 
Western  Hemisphere.  I  believe  this  committee  is  touching  on  some- 
thing profoundly  significant  in  the  relations  of  the  American 
republics.  I  believe  there  is  a  possibility  of  setting  up  a  way  of 
approach  and  of  suggesting  a  solution  which  will  affect  the  welfare 
and  lift  the  standard  of  living,  not  only  of  the  Mexican  in  the  South- 
west, but  of  the  migratory  worker  in  other  areas  of  the  Caribbean  and 
of  South  America. 


It  would  be  well,  I  think,  for  this  committee  and  for  the  agencies 
of  the  United  States  Government  who  are  interested  in  this  problem, 
to  take  very  careful  note  of  the  position  which  Mexican  labor,  organ- 
ized labor  in  Mexico,  has  always  taken  on  this  problem. 

For  many  years  back  the  organized-labor  movement  in  Mexico 
has  definitely  objected  to  and  has  commented  upon,  and  has  called 
attention  to  the  orthodox  and  traditional  way  of  handling  the  problem 
of  the  scarcity  of  labor  in  the  Southwest  United  States. 

Today  I  don't  presume  to  represent  the  opinion  of  organized  labor 
in  Mexico,  but  I  can  just  pass  on  to  you  what  I  think  is  an  accurate 
understanding  on  our  part  of  what  that  attitude  is:  It  is  simply  that 
the  more  or  less  haphazard  emigration  of  Mexican  labor  to  the  South- 
west, with  no  provisions  for  standards,  and  with  the  dislocation 
always  produced  by  the  movement  of  large  masses  of  workers,  in 
Mexico  itself,  is  definitely  contrary  to  the  interests  of  organized  labor 
in  the  Mexican  Republic. 

I  believe  that  Mexican  organized  labor  today  would  take  the  same 
attitude,  and  since  it  would  be  necessary  to  have  the  cooperation  and 
the  sympathy  which  the  Mexican  organized  labor  movement  is  willing 
to  extend  in' the  defense  effort — and  that  I  want  to  underline  also— 
in  order  to  secure  that  sympathy  I  think  it  would  be  wise  to  keep  this 
very  important  factor  in  mind. 

Moreover,  I  believe  that  this  committee  should  be  prepared  to  face 
an  attitude  on  the  part  of  the  Mexican  Government  with  respect  to 
this  problem,  somewhat  along-tha  following  lines,  and  again  this  is 


not  an  official  statement,  but  a  statement  made  to  you  with  the  desire 
to  anticipate  the  problems  that  may  arise  and  to  broaden  the  perspec- 
tive of  the  committee. 


The  position  of  the  Mexican  Government  on  this,  as  I  stated  to  the 
committee  a  moment  ago,  will  probably  take  the  following  form: 

1.  That  at  the  moment  as  things  are  now,  there  should  be  cate- 
gorically no  further  emigration  of  Mexican  workers  and  their  families 
to  the  United  States,  as  being  contrary  to  the  interests  of  Mexico. 

2.  That  there  is  a  recognition  of  the  fact  that  this  is  a  defense 
problem,  not  only  for  the  United  States  but  for  the  hemisphere;  and 
that  if  ways  and  means  can  be  found  to  lift  this  problem  out  of  its 
traditional  form  and  put  it  on  a  higher  level,  both  from  the  standpoint 
of  production  and  of  human  welfare,  I  believe  the  Mexicans  would  be 
willing  to  recognize  the  need  to  cooperate  with  the  United  States  to 
assure  a  sufficient  supply  of  labor. 

3.  That  a  real  need  for  workers  in  the  Southwest  area  be  established 
before  further  emigration  is  authorized.  And  I  might  say  that  there 
isn't  general  agreement,  very  often,  in  fact,  there  are  obvious  dis- 
crepancies between  reports  that  are  received  as  to  the  need  for  labor 
in  certain  areas  in  which  Mexicans  have  settled. 

4.  The  Mexicans  will,  no  doubt,  if  they  are  consistent  with  their 
past  views  on  this  matter,  insist  upon  the  setting  up  of  standards 
along  the  lines  indicated  by  the  representative  of  the  Department  of 

5.  It  seems  probable  that  the  Mexican  Government  would  suggest 
and  emphasize  the  need  to  set  up  an  international  body  composed  of 
representatives  of  the  Mexican  Government  and  of  the  United  States, 
to  do  exactly  what  the  chairman  has  indicated,  namely,  to  give  to  the 
human  labor  problem  at  least  as  much  consideration  as  the  movement 
of  goods  and  of  water  and  of  other  problems  that  the  two  governments 
have  handled  on  the  basis  of  international  negotiations. 

I  want  to  be  very  brief  in  what  I  am  going  to  say  now.  I  am  now 
adding  this  as  a  statement,  still  in  pursuance  of  the  general  idea  of 
broadening  the  perspective  of  the  committee.  This  is  not  only  a 
matter  of  bringing  agricultural  workers  to  the  Southwest,  but  it  is  a 
matter  of  the  adjustment  and  the  solution  of  certain  cultural  prob- 
lems, problems  of  friction  and  of  ill-feeling  that  have  grown  up  be- 
tween our  two  peoples. 


For  example,  when  you  speak  of  leveling  out  industrial  and  farm 
wages,  I  would  like  to  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  in  many 
areas  of  the  Southwest  today  there  are  dual  wage  standards  and  that 
Mexican  workers  today  are  being  paid  less  for  the  same  kind  of  work 
than  the  American  citizens  are  getting. 

Secondly,  in  many  areas,  too,  we  find  that  the  Mexican  worker  is 
subject  to  very  serious  discrimination  in  the  matter  of  seniority. 
We  find  also  that  the  Mexican  workers  who  go  back  to  their  native 
land  carry  back  some  very  disagreeable  impressions  and  recollections 
of  segregation  in  many  forms. 


They  find,  for  example,  that  some  young  man  in  a  Mexican  com- 
munity, an  American  citizen,  volunteers  to  go  to  the  armed  services 
of  the  United  States  because  he  feels  it  is  his  job  and  duty  to  defend 
his  adopted  country,  and  he  finds  that  he  can't,  that  there  are  many 
disabilities  and  barriers  because  he  happens  to  be  of  a  very  dark 

These  are  part  of  the  complexities  of  the  situation,  and  I  am  putting 
them  on  the  record  because  the  productivity  of  labor  is  always  a 
matter  of  morale.  I  don't  believe  that  is  a  matter  of  propaganda; 
it  is  a  matter  of  what  the  worker  is  getting  out  of  life;  the  more  he  is 
getting  out  of  life  the  more  he  will  give;  and  I  am  sure  the  Mexicans 
are  no  exception. 

These  psychological  frictions  lie  at  the  bottom,  I  think,  of  much  of 
the  difficulty. 


Finally,  I  want  to  say,  in  a  much  more  emphatic  manner,  that  I 
don't  think  it  is  possible  any  longer  for  the  solution  of  the  problem 
of  Mexican  emigration  to  the  United  States  to  be  based  on  any 
principle  that  does  not  conceive  of  the  development  of  the  economic 
and  human  resources  as  a  whole  of  that  area  that  lies  on  both  sides 
of  the  border.  I  am  speaking  of  northern  Mexico  and  the  southwest- 
ern part  of  the  United  States. 

That  is  an  economic  area  that  should  be  considered  as  a  unit.  In 
other  words,  northern  Mexico  should  no  longer  be  regarded  merely 
as  a  reservoir  of  manpower  than  can  be  tapped  when  certain  enter- 
prises in  the  United  States  think  it  is  timely  to  tap  it. 

Quite  the  contrary.  If  we  limit  ourselves  to  this  problem  from  the 
standpoint  of  immediate  defense  effort,  I  should  like  to  call  the  chair- 
man's attention  to  this  fact:  the  northwestern  area  of  Mexico  is  a 
vital  defense  area,  vital  to  the  defense  of  the  United  States,  and  vital 
to  the  defense  of  Mexico.  The  conditions  of  life  in  that  area  are  far 
from  desirable.  In  nutrition,  for  example,  there  are  entire  areas  which 
are  blighted  areas  from  the  human  standpoint.  In  northwestern 
Mexico  there  are  food  resources.  One  that  I  think  of  is  the  fishing 
industry.  The  fishing  industry  has  always  been  an  export  industry 
and  today,  20  miles  from  the  center  of  the  fishing  industry  in  northern 
Mexico,  workers  cannot  buy  fish,  they  can't  consume  it,  because  it  is 
all  shipped  either  to  the  United  States  or  to  Mexico  City  where  it 
sells  at  extraordinarily  high  prices. 

Moreover,  under  the  pressure  of  defense  needs,  extraction  plants 
are  bemg  set  up  in  Lower  California  for  concentrating  vitamin  A. 
This  vitamin  A  is  to  be  exported.  To  me  that  means  that  this  tradi- 
tional drain  on  the  food  resources  of  northwestern  Mexico,  which 
should  have  gone  into  the  building  up  of  the  physical  resistance  and 
the  capacity  of  these  people  to  produce,  is  a  problem  which  hasn't 
been  given  due  attention. 

Now,  I  think  we  have  a  problem  of  focusing  upon  that  whole  area 
and  remembering  that  Mexico's  manpower  will  produce  both  in  the 
United  States  and  in  northwestern  Mexico.  I  think  it  is  primary  to 
regard  it  in  that  light  and  to  protect  living  standards  and  the  drain- 
age upon  labor  power  in  northwestern  Mexico,  because  the  time  is 
coming  very  soon  when  the  productivity,  the  adjustment,  the  effici- 

60396— 42— pt.  33 3 


ency  of  the  Mexican  worker  in  Mexico  itself  will  be  an  important 
defense  consideration. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  I  don't  know  that  I  can  disagree  with  your 
statements;  I  think  they  are  a  good  deal  along  the  lines  of  my  own 
thoughts.  Speaking  for  myself  personally,  I  think  if  Mexican  laborers 
come  into  this  country  they  should  have  their  standards,  they  should 
have  their  status. 

This  committee  has  been  all  over  the  United  States  and  we  have 
examined  this  problem  from  the  standpoint  of  the  destitute  migrant. 
Why,  between  Mexico  and  the  United  States,  the  human  equation  is 
the  last  thing  to  be  touched,  I  don't  know.  I  guess  it  is  answered  by 
the  fact  that  it  is  the  last  thing  touched  between  States.  Here  we 
have  48  States,  and  as  far  as  the  migration  of  destitute  citizens  is 
concerned  we  might  as  well  be  48  nations;  the  migrants  have  no  status 
and  never  did  have  a  status  in  this  country.  They  lose  their  legal 
residence  in  one  State  and  don't  gain  it  in  their  State  of  destination; 
they  are  voteless  and  voiceless,  even  to  the  extent  that,  as  pointed 
out  by  the  Supreme  Court  in  the  Edwards  case,  28  States  in  the  Union 
make  it  a  crime  to  transport  an  indigent  citizen  across  their  boundaries. 

So  we  haven't  done  very  well  in  our  own  country  so  far  as  that  is 
concerned,  and  we  can't  be  very  proud  of  it.  Of  course  this  great 
migration  to  defense  industries  of  millions  of  people  might  change  it. 

But  I  agree  with  you  on  the  proposition  that  if  Mexican  labor  comes 
in  here  it  must  come  in  under  an  arrangement  between  the  two  Govern- 
ments, and,  as  you  say,  with  the  morale  in  no  way  lowered.  I  don't 
think  there  is  any  other  way,  and  I  repeat  that  I  agree  with  you. 

Mr.  Galarza.  May  I  just  add  one  comment,  Mr.  Chairman? 

The  Chairman.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Galarza.  These  problems  of  maladjustment  and  discrimina- 
tion and  others  that  I  have  pointed  to,  for  many  years  have  spread 
far  beyond  Mexico;  they  are  picked  up  and  commented  upon  by  the 
enemies  of  the  United  States,  or  at  least  those  who  don't  wish  to  see 
friendly  relations  between  the  American  republics,  and  they  build 
that  up  as  an  example  of  the  indifference  of  the  people  of  the  United 
States  to  the  Mexicans. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Walter  H.  C.  Laves,  director,  Division  of  Inter- 
American  Activities  in  the  United  States,  and  Office  of  the  Coordinator 
of  Inter-American  Affairs. 


Mr.  Laves.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  interest  of  the  Coordinator  of  Inter- 
American  Affairs  in  this  problem  springs  from  the  responsibilities  of 
the  Corodinator  under  the  Executive  order  establishing  that  office. 
These  are  responsibilities  which  relate  to  the  war-time  effort  of  the 
entire  Western  Hemisphere,  efforts  which  involve  the  collaboration 
of  the  21  republics  in  this  hemisphere.  They  are  responsibilities  which 
relate  also  to  the  economic  and  cultural  interrelationships  of  the  peoples 
of  the  entire  Western  Hemisphere. 


I  might  say  that  these  are  responsibilities  that  are  concerned  with 
the  Good  Neighbor  Policy,  the  Good  Neighbor  Policy  in  war  as  in 


Now  our  concern  is  that  the  problem  of  Mexican  labor,  the  bringing 
in  of  Mexican  labor,  shall  be  handled  in  such  a  way  that  there  is  a 
maximum  use  of  the  available  resources  of  the  Western  Hemisphere 
toward  the  winning  of  the  war,  and  a  maximum  use,  therefore,  of 
human  as  well  as  material  resources. 

Secondly,  we  are  concerned  because  we  think  that  this  problem 
needs  to  be  handled  in  a  way  which  will  not  jeopardize  the  good  rela- 
tions between  the  United  States  and  Mexico,  and,  in  a  broader  sense, 
the  relations  between  the  people  of  the  United  States  and  the  people  of 
the  other  American  republics. 

We  get  a  good  many  reports  which  indicate  that  many  Mexicans 
go  back  to  Mexico,  to  their  native  land,  with  a  distinct  feeling  of  ill 
will  toward  the  United  States  because  of  the  way  in  which  they  have 
been  treated;  they  feel  that  they  have  been  unjustly  treated. 

These  people,  and  also  those  in  the  great  Southwestern  States  of 
this  country,  become  the  objects  of  propaganda  of  an  anti-American, 
anti-United  Nations,  character. 

This  is,  as  Mr.  Galarza  has  said,  in  part  a  problem  of  morale,  and 
so  long  as  there  is  a  substantial  portion  of  the  manpower  of  the  West- 
ern Hemisphere  which  feels  it  is  discriminated  against,  and  which  feels 
that  it  is  not  being  appropriately  treated,  that  portion  of  the  man- 
power necessarily  is  going  to  be  under  attack  from  those  who  are  try- 
ing to  divide  the  United  Nations  in  their  war  effort. 

In  short,  unless  this  problem  is  treated  in  a  way  which  is  consonant 
with  the  good  neighbor  policy,  there  is  likelihood  that  we  will  play 
into  the  hands  of  our  enemies. 

I  should  say  also — perhaps  I  should  Have  said  this  first — that  the 
Office  of  the  Coordinator  of  Inter- American  Affairs  is  interested  in 
seeing  that  what  is  done  about  this  problem  shall  not  in  any  way 
endanger    the    human   welfare    of   our   fellow   Americans. 

Our  office  has  been  cooperating  with  other  Government  agencies  in 
a  number  of  these  hearings  that  have  been  going  on,  and  the  com- 
mittee meetings  that  have  been  taking  place  under  the  chairmanship 
of  Governor  McNutt,  and  we  have  answered  the  questions  of  your 
committee.  I  do  not  need,  therefore,  to  go  into  detailed  questions 
of  policy. 


I  have  wanted  first  simply  to  establish  what  our  interest  is  in  the 
case.  I  would  like  to  go  one  step  further  here,  however,  to  indicate 
that  if  there  is  to  be  any  bringing  in  of  Mexican  labor  into  the  United 
States,  this  should  take  place  only  after  there  has  been  presented  ade- 
quate evidence  that  there  is  need  for  that  labor. 

Secondly,  that  we  are  opposed  to  uncontrolled  private  recruiting  of 
Mexican  labor,  or  any  other  human  resources  in  the  Western  Hemi- 
sphere; and,  third,  that  there  needs  to  be  some  sort  of  a  public  author- 
ity or  public  agency  which  will  lay  down  standards  under  which  these 
human  resources  may  be  moved  in  time  of  national  emergency. 


A  statement  of  standards  has  been  worked  out,  again  by  the  com- 
mittee which  was  called  together  by  Governor  McNutt;  and  we  have 
contributed  what  we  could  to  the  deliberations  leading  to  the  prepara- 
tion of  the  statement. 

We  believe  that  an  international  authority  should  determine  what 
the  needs  are.  That  is,  beyond  determining  what  the  standards  are 
under  which  the  people  are  to  be  brought  in,  they  should  now  deter- 
mine also  the  needs,  and  it  is  of  course  essential  that  such  an  authority 
should  be  a  joint  one  of  the  governments  concerned.  In  other  words, 
so  far  as  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor  is  concerned,  we  feel  very 
strongly  that  there  should  be  an  international  joint  committee. 

I  repeat  what  has  been  said  by  others  here  this  morning,  that  this 
is  a  problem  of  the  movement  of  men,  of  human  beings;  it  is  a  problem 
of  the  human  resources  of  the  Western  Hemisphere;  it  is  a  problem 
of  how  we  can  best  make  use  of  these  human  resources,  first  for  the 
winning  of  the  war,  and  then  in  the  building  of  a  longer  and  a  more 
just  social  order. 

It  is  necessary,  therefore,  that  the  governmental  representatives  of 
all  those  people  be  consulted.  This  is  a  joint  responsibility  of  the 
Western  Hemisphere. 

When  Congressman  Tolan  spoke  a  moment  ago  about  the  fact  that 
we  have  paid  little  attention  to  human  resources  and  we  have  paid 
much  attention  in  treaties  to  other  matters,  there  was  recalled  to  my 
mind  the  remarkable  address  of  Vice  President  Wallace  a  week  or  10 
days  ago,  in  which  he  referred  to  the  war  as  a  "people's  conflict"  and 
that  the  result  of  this  war  must  show  an  improvement  in  human  wel- 
fare, the  welfare  of  the  people. 

It  seems  to  me,  sir,  that  the  problem  which  we  are  discussing  here 
this  morning  must  be  viewed  in  this  broader  perspective. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Alvin  Roseman,  assistant  to  the  Administrator, 
Federal  Security  Agency. 


Mr.  Roseman.  There  is  relatively  little  I  can  add  to  the  statements 
that  have  already  been  made,  except  perhaps  to  give  the  committee 
a  little  more  information  concerning  the  interest  of  the  War  Man- 
power Commission  in  tins  problem. 


Because  of  the  many  agencies  having  an  interest  in  various  aspects 
of  this  problem,  Mr.  McNutt  asked  me  to  take  the  responsibility  for 
forming  a  committee  representing  the  agencies  around  this  table  to 
review  the  existing  situation,  and  to  make  recommendations  as  to 
ways  of  meeting  it.  We  are  very  happy  to  have  had  the  participa- 
tion of  Dr.  Lamb,  of  your  staff,  who  has  advised  us  on  many  aspects 
of  the  problem. 

The  War  Manpower  Commission,  as  you  know,  is  a  new  agency, 
charged  essentially  with  the  responsibility  of  making  sure  that  every 
possible  resource  is  utilized  in  the  most  effective  implementation  of 
our  war  program  from  the  point  of  view  of  manpower. 


We  are  aware,  of  course,  of  both  the  short-time,  immediate  issues' 
and  of  the  more  fundamental  long-time  issues  that  have  been  so  ably- 
stated  by  Mr.  Galarza  and  the  other  representatives.  We  do  recog- 
nize the  fact  that  agriculture  is  an  essential  industry  in  our  wartime 
program;  we  do  know  that  acreage  has  been  expanded  in  agriculture 
and  at  the  same  time  there  has  been  an  extraordinary  drain  of  agricul- 
tural labor  to  other  forms  of  war  industry. 

We  are  thoroughly  convinced  that  we  do  not  as  yet  have  the  ade- 
quate fact-finding  machinery  that  we  should  have.  The  War  Man- 
power Commission  has  already  addressed  representations  to  the  ap- 
propriate congressional  committees  concerning  the  need  for  expanding 
and  intensifying  the  work  of  the  Department  of  Agriculture  in  this 
field,  and  also  for  a  much  more  adequate  implementation  of  the  work 
of  the  Employment  Service.  That  problem  has  been  brought  before 
you  by  representatives  of  those  two  agencies. 

Informally,  this  committee  has  spent  a  good  deal  of  time  in  review- 
ing various  possible  standards,  in  building  up  what  we  tliought 
might  be  a  feasible  method  of  meeting  this  immediate  issue  in  view 
of  all  the  varied  considerations  involved. 


■  In  addition  to  the  committee  members  who  have  spoken  for  them- 
selves and  for  their  agencies,  I  should  say  that  the  War  Manpower 
Commission  is  definitely  concerned  about  the  basic  premise  that  labor 
should  not  be  imported  under  the  same  conditions  that  have  existed 
hitherto;  that  we  have  an  obligation  for  protecting  our  domestic 
labor  supply  or,  to  put  it  better,  to  make  sure  that  our  domestic 
labor  supply  is  absolutely  utilized  to  its  maximum  before  we  add  to 
that  supply  and  draw  off  from  our  neighboring  countries'  labor 
which  they  may  need  for  their  own  war  efforts. 

We  are  no  less  concerned  about  the  necessity  for  protecting  im- 
ported workers  against  the  type  of  exploitation  that  has  taken  place 
in  some  parts  of  this  country  over  the  years. 

The  War  Manpower  Commission  is  also  concerned  about  this 
problem  which  Mrs.  Beyer  mentioned  in  connection  with  the  present 
unregulated  character  of  private  employment  agencies,  and  I  antici- 
pate that  at  the  next  meeting  of  the  War  Manpower  Commission  the 
Tolan  bill  will  also  receive  consideration  in  that  regard. 

I  might  say  that  I  have  had  the  opportunity  of  having  a  number 
of  delegations,  representing  both  the  farm  groups  and  the  labor 
groups,  call  upon  me  in  the  last  few  days,  since  this  subject  has 
gotten  into  the  papers. 

The  representatives  of  labor  who- have  talked  with  me  and  other 
members  of  our  organization  have  indicated  no  disposition  at  all  to 
view  this  question  selfishly.  There  has  been  a  great  deal  of  emphasis 
upon  the  fact  that  there  are  available  existing  pools  of  American 
labor  that  are  not  now  being  utilized,  and  that  if  the  Employment 
Service  were  more  adequately  staffed  and  strengthened,  we  could 
make  more  effective  use  of  some  of  our  people  who  are  now  unem- 
ployed, or  underemployed,  to  meet  some  of  these  particular  situations. 

The  point  of  view  of  several  groups  of  organized  labor  has  been 
essentially  that  represented  around  this  table:  That  there  should  be 
no   discrimination  in   wage   standards;   that   there   is   this   existing. 


disparity  between  agricultural  wages  and  industrial  wages.  Certainly 
there  has  been  a  very  definite  recognition  of  the  point  Mr.  Galarza 
made,  of  the  essential  unity  of  interest  on  both  sides  of  the  border 
among  labor  groups. 

Some  of  the  farm  groups  who  have  talked  with  me  have  also  recog- 
nized the  fact  that  they  are  confronted  with  a  new  and  different  situa- 
tion. They  realize  that  they  will  no  longer  be  able  to  recruit  the  labor 
they  need,  using  some  of  the  old  practices  or  relying  upon  the  sort  of 
situation  which  existed  when  a  farmer  could  drive  to  the  nearest  town 
and  choose  from  a  hundred  men  the  10  men  that  he  particularly 
wanted  to  have. 

The  War  Manpower  Commission-I  should  emphasize  this-has  not 
taken  any  official  position  with  respect  to  this  problem  because  its 
attention  has  been  devoted,  in  the  two  or  three  meetings  that  the 
commission  has  had,  to  certain  broad  aspects  of  our  domestic  indus- 
trial problems. 

However,  I  should  report  that  at  the  last  meeting  of  the  commission 
on  Wednesday,  we  met  with  the  members  of  the  commission  and  the 
Secretary  of  Agriculture  and  the  Secretary  of  Labor,  and  reviewed 
this  general  statement  of  standards  which  is  being  proposed  to  the 
Immigration  Service  and  the  State  Department.  It  was  agreed  that 
the  approach  the  staff  group  had  worked  upon  was  essentially  a  sound 

We  recognize  the  difficulties  which  are  going  to  confront  both  the 
Employment  Service  and  the  Department  of  Agriculture  in  meeting 
some  of  these  urgent  demands  upon  them  for  providing  labor  for  this 
existing  and  current  situation.  At  the  same  time  we  are  not  yet 
thoroughly  convinced  that  if  the  Employment  Service  were  more 
adequately  implemented,  we  could  not  meet  our  existing  situation — 
I  am  thinking  now  of  the  situation  as  it  relates  to  the  next  2  or  3 
months — through  a  more  effective  utilization  of  our  domestic  labor 

I  should  also  point  out  that  in  terms  of  long-time  consideration — 
and  when  I  speak  of  that  I  mean  primarily  in  terms  of  next  year's 
program  and  the  years  after  that — we  feel  that  there  will  have  to  be 
a  much  more  adequate  planning  job  and  much  earlier  work  done  on 
this  problem  if  we  are  to  meet  our  agricultural  labor  goals.  We  do 
foresee  a  continued  drain  upon  agricultural  labor  and  perhaps  also  a 
further  expansion  of  the  agricultural  production  program.  This  will 
mean  that  next  year  we  shall  have  to  start  much  earlier  in  the  game 
to  plan  and  work  out  our  intergovernmental  and  interagency  relation- 
ships, so  that  the  problem  can  be  met  on  a  much  less  haphazard  basis 
than  is  the  situation  today. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  George  H.  Winters,  Assistant  Chief  of  the  Divi- 
sion of  American  Republics,  State  Department? 


Mr.  Winters.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  Department  of  State,  as  you 
know,  of  course,  is  not  in  position  to  determine  the  extent  of  any 
actual  need  for  the  importation  of  labor,  whether  from  Mexico  or 
"elsewhere.     "We  are,  however,  greatly  interested  in  the  problem  for 


the  reason  that  has  been  so  clearly  brought  out  here — that  importation 
of  labor  has  brought  on  so  many  difficulties  in  the  past,  which  have 
had  an  adverse  effect  on  our  relations  with  Mexico.  Admittedly, 
there  has  been  discrimination,  and  discrimination  must  be  resented 
and  has  been  resented. 

We  therefore  feel  that  any  plan  for  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor 
which  may  be  worked  out  must  be  based  upon  a  showing  of  an  ab- 
solute need.  We  feel  that  if  there  is  such  need,  a  plan  should  be  care- 
fully formulated  and  presented  to  the  Mexican  Government  with  the 
request  for  their  cooperation.  We  feel  that  everything  should  be  done 
to  guarantee  adequate  standards  as  to  wages,  housing,  and  trans- 
portation for  any  workers  brought  into  this  country. 

I  would  like  to  emphasize  that  we  feel  that  the  first  step  must  be  a 
complete  showing  to  Mexico  of  an  absolute  need  in  this  country. 
That,  as  I  have  indicated,  is  a  matter  over  which  the  Department  of 
State  has  no  jurisdiction. 

I  might  clarify  the  statement  that  we  sent  to  Dr.  Lamb  last  evening 
with  respect  to  the  proposal  of  a  joint  commission.  We  would  not,  I 
believe,  have  any  opposition  whatsoever  to  an  international  com- 
mission. Our  question  was  one  as  to  the  practicability  of  establishing 
one  soon  enough  to  take  care  of  the  immediate  problem  which  had 
been  presented. 

I  believe  that  covers  our  position. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Winters,  that  is  the  real  reason  for  this  con- 
ference this  morning,  that  this  committee  did  not  want  to  go  into 
California  or  into  Texas  and  stir  this  whole  thing  up  as  to  their  imme- 
diate needs,  when,  over  it  all,  hung  the  international  problem.  In 
other  words  this  committee — and  you  can  take  this  back  to  Secretary 
Hull — will  not  take  any  stand  or  make  any  recommendation  to  Con- 
gress unless  we  have  a  clearance  from  the  State  Department  and  the 
Mexican  Government. 

So  this  is  simply  informal,  we  are  trying  to  feel  our  way  about,  but 
we  are  not  going  to  take  any  stand  until  you  people  are  consulted  and 
the  Mexican  Government  is  consulted. 

Mr.  Winters.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  think  probably  there  are  a  good  many  questions;  we 
might  give  the  reporter  a  3-minute  recess  and  then  start  the  dis- 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  we  will  take  a  3-minute  recess. 

(Whereupon  a  short  recess  was  taken,  after  which  the  conference 
was  resumed.) 

The  Chairman.  Will  the  committee  please  come  to  order? 

Are  there  some  questions  you  want  to  ask,  Dr.  Lamb? 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  have  a  few  to  start  off  with. 

I  have  the  impression,  from  things  that  have  been  said  this  morning, 
that  the  request  for  Mexicans  at  this  time  is  conditional  and  that  the 
conditions  vary,  depending  on  the  agency  speakmg. 

My  impression  is  that  the  Employment  Service  conditions  the 
request  upoD  the  present  inadequacy  of  funds,  and  in  view  of  the  fact 
that  the  request  for  6,000  is  for  immediate  workers,  you  aren't  going 
to  be  able  to  get  those  funds  soon  enough  to  be  able  to  make  the 
search  which  will  permit  you  to  say  whether  there  is  a  supply.  Is 
that  substantially  correct? 



Mr.  Stocking.  Yes.  I  might  have  pointed  out  that  this  type  of 
recruiting  is  at  first  a  special  type;  it  is  relatively  expensive  because 
you  have  got  to  make  a  more  thorough  search;  you  can't  rely  on  these 
people  coining  to  the  office,  you  have  to  carry  this  service x>ut  to  them. 

Dr.  Lamb.  By  "these  people"  you  mean  the  workers  of  Mexican 

Mr.  Stocking.  The  workers  of  Mexican  origin,  that  is  right. 
You  have  got  to  go  out  and  get  them  organized  into  a  working  group ; 
you  very  rarely  hire  them  singly,  you  get  the  leader  who  organizes 
the  group.     To  do  that  takes  money. 


If  I  am  not  mistaken,  we  have  very  few  people  devoting  their  time 
to  this  activity  in  California.  For  traveling  expenses,  to  go  out  into 
the  byways,  into  New  Mexico,  a  couple  of  weeks  ago  we  had  $400 
left  for  this  purpose.  You  just  can't  do  an  adequate  job  under  the 
present  circumstances. 

Dr.  Lamb.  What  this  amounts  to  in  effect — • — 

The  Chairman  (interposing) .  How  much  money  do  you  want? 

Mr.  Stocking.  Well,  we  are  putting  in  a  deficiency  appropriation 
now,  but  I  am  sorry  I  don't  know  what  the  amount  is;  it  is  going  to 
be  put  in  right  away. 

Mr.  Rogers.  Mr.  Stocking,  is  it  impossible  to  assign  any  more 
employees  in  California  to  this?  Couldn't  you  assign  additional 
employees  on  some  such  basis  as  the  proportion  of  agriculture  to 
other  work? 

Mr.  Stocking.  That  is  not  quite  as  easy  as  it  may  sound.  After 
all,  California  is  an  area  which  has  been  very  rapidly  industrialized, 
and  we  have  one  of  our  largest  industrial  recruiting  stations  there. 
Very  frequently,  or  generally,  the  people  who  are  particularly  well 
equipped  for  carrying  on  the  industrial  recruiting  and  placement 
work,  are  not  people  especially  well  equipped  for  shifting  over  to 
agricultural  placement  work. 

Mr.  Rogers.  I  was  just  wondering.  I  have  heard  this,  I  don't 
know  whether  it  is  a  fact  or  not,  that  in  some  States  they  are  not 
working  on  domestic  orders  for  placement,  feeling  that  there  are  other 
things  more  important.  I  was  wondering  if  the  Employment  Service 
felt  that  agriculture  should  be  served  only  after  the  industrial  em- 
ployers and  workers  are  served? 

Mr.  Stocking.  No.  You  must  remember  that  we  have  had  an  ex- 
pansion of  crops  and  we  have  tried  with  the  expansion  of  our  agricul- 
tural service,  to  keep  pace  with  that,  and,  as  you  know,  we  weren't 
able  to  carry  out  a  great  many  of  our  plans  because  we  did  have  a 
cut  in  our  budget  request,  which  limited  our  activity. 

Mr.  Rogers.  That  represents  an  actual  reduction,  though,  in 
employees  working  on  farm  labor  in  California,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Stocking.  I  am  not  sure;  maybe  I  have  understated  the 
number  of  people  engaged  in  farm  placement  in  California.  But  I 
want  to  indicate  that  we  are  inadequately  staffed  for  doing  the  job 
that  is  now  being  expected  of  us. 


The  Chairman.  We  talk  around  the  table  here  and  get  the  facts, 
but  we  must  also  think  in  terms  of  what  is  the  best  thing  to  do 
about  it. 


Now,  as  Dr.  Lamb  stresses,  we  start  off  with  the  fundamental  pre- 
mise of  the  need  for  this  importation,  are  there  any  mechanics  by 
which  the  field  employment  agencies,  together  with  the  State  agencies, 
for  instance  in  Texas — can  get  together  and  make  a  survey  of  how 
much  labor  they  have  on  hand? 

Mr.  Stocking.  Mr.  Congressman,  we  do  that  now,  we  do  it  more 
adequately  with  industrial  labor  than  with  agricultural  labor,  but 
now  we  work  with  the  Department  of  Agriculture  very  closely  in 
currently  reviewing  the  acreage,  growing  conditions,  and  the  antici- 
pated size  of  the  crop,  translating  these  factors  into  the  number  of 
workers  that  will  be  needed.  On  the  basis  of  this  information  we  are 
able  to  consult  with  employers  and  in  many  cases  get  a  correction  of 
their  earlier  estimates  of  how  many  workers  they  think  they  will  need, 
or  they  state  that  they  think  they  will  need. 

But  there  is  the  other  aspect  of  this  particular  difficulty,  locating 
the  people.  After  all,  in  this  connection  too,  it  is  impossible  to  over- 
emphasize the  differential  in  wages  between  agriculture  and  industry. 
In  farm  labor  you  very  often  find  men  working  at  20  cents  an  hour. 
In  industry  now,  beginners'  wages  frequently  are  65  cents  or  more 
per  hour,  and  as  Governor  McNutt  said  in  his  speech  the  other  night, 
the  loss  of  workers  for  farm  work  has  not  been  brought  about  by  the 
drafting  of  workers,  but  by  the  flow  of  workers  from  the  farm  to 

This  is  a  very  basic  problem,  and  it  seems  to  me  that  imtil  this 
differential  is  narrowed,  you  are  always  going  to  have  trouble  getting 
agricultural  labor  when  there  are  jobs  available  in  industry.  Two 
things  have  made  the  problem  very  acute  this  year — the  expansion  of 
the  crops,  and  the  opportunity  for  employment  at  higher  wages. 

Dr.  Lamb.  With  all  respect  to  Governor  McNutt  and  the  need  for 
higher  wages,  it  is  nevertheless  true  that  we  have  some  undetermined 
supply,  probably  a  surplus,  of  agricultural  labor  in  many  areas,  which 
is  not  visible  because  of  the  lack  of  adequate  machinery  first  for  dis- 
covering it,  and  second  for  getting  it  out. 

Mr.  Stocking.  I  agree  with  that  completely  except  that  I  would 
remove  the  word  "surplus";  I  would  say  that  it  is  likely  that  we  have 
an  adequate  supply  if  we  could  get  it  out. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Well,  of  course,  the  word  "adequate"  and  the  word 
"surplus"  are  always  relative.'  In  agriculture,  as  we  know,  an  ade- 
quate supply  historically  has  been  a  surplus,  and  consequently  if 
today  we  have  a  truly  adequate  supply  it  is  the  first  tim.e  in  12  years 
that  we  haven't  had  one  which  actually  ought  to  be  classified  as  a 
surplus.  I  venture  to  believe  that  in  many  areas  we  still  have  that 
surplus,  although  not  in  the  same  proportion. 

Mr.  Stocking.  That  is  quite  possible. 

Dr.  Lamb.  What  we  are  asking  the  Mexican  Government  to  do, 
substantially,  is  to  assist  the  United  States  Government  by  supplying 
labor  at  this  time  to  tide  us  over  until  the  case  of  the  Employment 
Service   and   the   other   agencies   involved,    for   example,   the   Farm 


Security  Administration,  can  be  brought  to  the  attention  of  Congress 
for  supplementary  appropriations. 

Mr.  Stocking.  That  is  true. 

Dr.  Lamb.  That  is  in  substance  where  we  stand  today.  Under 
those  circumstances  I  think  it  is  a  fair  guess  that  the  answer  of  the 
Mexican  Government  will  be  no,  that  they  can't  be  expected  to  under- 
write with  their  labor  the  present  inadequacies  of  our  situation;  it 
isn't  merely  a  matter  of  their  underwriting  it  financially,  but  actually, 
in  terms  of  their  human  supply  of  workers. 

Mr.  Roseman.  May  I  inject  something  at  this  point,  Mr.  Chair- 

The  Chairman.  You  may. 


Mr.  Roseman.  Whatever  the  situation  is  this  year,  we  will  cer- 
tainly be  confronted  by  next  year  with  an  increasingly  difficult  situa- 
tion that  is  far  beyond  our  present  difficulties. 

Dr.  Lamb.  In  that  connection  I  believe  we  will  be  in  much  less 
difficulty  next  year  if  we  do  not  permit  the  Mexicans  to. come  in  this 
year.  I  mean  by  thai,  that  if  we  are  forced  to  face  up  to  our  present 
problems,  we  are  much  more  likely  to  solve  them  in  such  a  way  that 
next  year  we  can  rise  to  the  occasion;  whereas  if  we  are  let  off  the 
spot  tcday,  the  consequences  are  going  to  be  serious  for  us  next  year, 
and  I  say  this  advisedly  because  I  think  the  whole  country  is  in  the 
same  fix.  I  don't  think  it  is  a  question  of  whether  or  not  the  Employ- 
ment Service  is  adequate,  I  think  it  is  a  question  of  whether  Congress, 
and  the  Executive  as  well,  realize  what  is  implied  in  the  full  utiliza- 
tion of  the  labor  supply  in  a  war  effort,  and  I  am  sure  that  at  the 
present  writing  they  do  not. 

Consequently,  I  would  like  to  see  all  the  internal  difficulties  which 
this  situation  presents,  confront  us  head  on,  and  not  duck  and  dodge 
around  into  one  outlet  or  another  similar  outlet,  which  can't  fail  but 
to  be  merely  temporary.  I  have  mentioned  two,  getting  the  Mexi- 
cans in  this  year  or  using  the  labor  of  the  Japanese  on  a  large  scale. 
Either  of  those  seem  to  me  to  be  mere  slides  out  of  our  immediate 

Mr.  Roseman.  I  was  merely  confirming,  rather  than  disagreeing 
with  you.  In  terms  of  the  basic  problem,  no  matter  what  we  do  this 
year  it  wili  be  accentuated  far  beyond  our  present  realizations  next 
year;  to  me  that  points  to  the  need  for  much  more  intensive  con- 
sideration of  this  whole  question,  starting  now,  irrespective  of  any 
ephemera]  decision  we  may  have  to  make  in  the  next  2  or  3  weeks. 

Mr.  Galarza.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  should  like  to  raise  this  question. 
The  location  and  the  finding  of  an  available  labor  supply  in  this 
country,  at  least  so  far  as  Mexicans  are  concerned,  might  be  looked 
at  in  this  way.  There  is  no  doubt  that  the  consular  service  of  the 
Mexican  Government  in  this  country  has  information — I  don't  know 
bow  accurate  or  extensive  it  is — but  it  is  perfectly  evident  that  the 
work  of  the  Mexican  consular  service,  as  the  work  of  the  consular 
service  of  any  government  in  the  world,  keeps  it  in  touch  with  the 
lives  and  problems  of  its  nationals. 

I  wonder  whether  the  problem  that  you  raise,  as  to  utilizing  all  the 
available  resources  now  to  find  out  where  there  is  labor  available, 
might  not  include  conversations  through  the  State  Department  with 


the  Mexican  Government  to  see  whether  cooperation  of  that  kind 
could  not  be  set  up. 

Mrs.  Beyer.  There  are  a  great  many  Mexican  workers  left  in 
Detroit  and  hi  areas  like  that,  where  they  have  been  dumped  last 
year  and  the  year  before,  and  are  not  being  absorbed.  The  next 
season  they  bring  in  another  group.  I  think  that  your  suggestion  is  a 
good  one. 

Mr.  Galarza.  And  I  am  quite  sure  from  my  experience,  that  the 
Mexican  consulate  in  Detroit  is  very  well  informed  as  to  where  that 
labor  is.  I  don't  say  that  they  have  a  statistical  service,  but  their 
knowledge,  then-  general  knowledge  of  the  area,  might  very  well  be 
brought  to  bear  in  an  immediate  sense,  and  not  m  a  remote  sense. 
Of  course  the  State  Department  would  have  to  pass  on  that. 


The  Chairman.  The  crying  need  in  this  country  is  for  an  inventory 
of  materials  and  manpower.  For  instance,  when  we  held  a  hearing 
in  St.  Louis  it  was  testified  to  by  several  witnesses  that  a  new  plant 
was  being  built  there  when  a  lot  of  the  same  machinery  in  St.  Louis 
was  not  being  used.  We  have  approximately  160,000  small  factories 
in  the  United  States  and  97  percent  of  them  employ  less  than  250  men. 
There  is  no  trouble  in  finding  out  about  those  factories.  We  took  the 
last  census  in  30  days  and  the  census  workers  often  had  to  make 
more  than  one  trip  to  find  the  householders  at  home,  so  why  can't  we 
get  an  inventory  of  manpower  and  materials  in  much  the  same  way? 

Mr.  Roseman.  I  am  sure  you  are  weary  about  the  complaints  of 
Federal  agencies  that  they  don't  have  the  funds  to  do  the  jobs  which 
they  think  they  ought  to  be  doing.  On  the  other  hand,  I  ought  to 
point  out  that  the  selective  service  questionnaires  which  are  going 
out  now  will  have  to  be  tabulated  to  produce  certain  aspects  of  that 
inventory,  and  as  yet  the  Employment  Service  has  not  been  furnished 
with  funds  to  do  that  job. 


Mr.  Stocking.  I  would  like  to  qualify  that  a  little  bit  because  I 
think  that  what  we  are  doing,  or  what  we  are  able  to  do  within  the 
limits  of  the  funds  we  have  now,  is  in  the  direction  of  taking  such 
inventory.  As  you  know,  we  are  getting  an  occupational  history  of 
each  of  the  40,000,000  people  who  will  register  under  the  selective 
service  and  we  are  trying  to  use  that  as  a  reservoir  of  labor  supply 
yet  untapped,  for  shifting  some  of  the  workers  to  jobs  in  which  they 
can  make  a  greater  contribution  to, our  war  effort.  I  think  that  in 
general  is  along  the 'line  of  what  you  are  suggesting. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Your  information  will  be  in  the  form  of  a  sample,  will 
it  not,  plus  a  tallying?  That  is  to  say,  you  won't  be  in  a  position, 
because  those  materials  will  be  segregated  in  the  local  boards  and  the 
local  offices,  to  make  more  than  a  sampling  use  of  that  information, 
will  you? 

Mr.  Stocking.  No;  that  is  not  quite  right  because  we  are  sorting 
out  the  returns  into  at  least  two  categories,  those  that  are  now  work- 
ing in  war  production  at  their  best  skill;  those  that  have  the  skills 
but  are  working  elsewhere. 


We  gave  a  great  deal  of  consideration  to  some  sort  of  over-all  na- 
tional tabulation,  but  we  deemed  it  unwise  to  undertake  such  tabu- 
lations. Information  obtained  by  self -classification,  if  50  percent  ac- 
curate, is  unusual.  It  is  necessary  to  call  the  individual  in  and  verify 
his  report  of  his  occupational  experience.  We  use  this  information  in 
day-to-day  operations 

Dr.  Lamb  (interposing).  For  the  local  offices? 

Mr.  Stocking.  Yes,  and  through  clearance 

Dr.  Lamb  (interposing).  And  these  break-downs  that  you  describe 
will  be  made  in  the  local  offices? 

Mr.  Stocking.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Roseman.  You  will  be  able  to  go  to  any  local  office,  though, 
and  get  a  pretty  good  picture  of  the  available  labor  supply. 

Dr.  Lamb.  As  of  the  occupational  status  at  the  moment  when  the 
registration  was  made. 

Mr.  Stocking.  Yes;  that  is  right. 

Dr.  .Lamb.  How  are  the  local  employment  offices  going  to  be  able 
to  keep  it  up  to  date?  As  I  understand  it,  that  information  will  be 
kept  in  the  draft  board? 

Mr.  Stocking.  The  basic  card  goes  to  the  Employment  Service  and 
is  kept  there. 

Dr.  Lamb.  How  is  the  Employment  Service  going  to  keep  that  card 
up  to  date?  I  can  see  that  the  draft  board  will  keep  it  up  to  date 
insofar  as  changes  of  address  and  changes  of  occupation  are  concerned. 

Mr.  Stocking.  We  gave  a  great  deal  of  consideration  to  that  point 
and  decided  that  it  wouldn't  be  necessary  for  us  to  keep  it  up  to  date 
because  if  a  person  is  placed  in  an  essential  occupation  and  an  essential 
industry  we  are  now  concerned  in  keeping  check  on  him.  It  is  only 
when  you  have  a  shortage,  or  are  unable  to  fill  a  given  job  that  you 
go  back  to  your  cards,  pull  out  people  who  have  the  proper  qualifica- 
tions and  have  indicated  they  are  not,  or  were  not  at  the  time,  engaged 
in  an  essential  occupation  in  an  essential  industry,  and  call  as  many 
of  them  in  as  necessary,  to  find  the  number  you  need  for  filling  the 
job  orders. 


Dr.  Lamb.  Now  isn't  it  correct  to  say  that  you  made  this  decision 
not  because  it  is  the  ideal,  but  only  because  under  these  circumstances 
it  is  the  optimum?  If  the  Employment  Service  represented  a  100 
percent  record  of  all  working  people  in  the  country,  including  people 
in  uncovered  employments,  and  if,  for  instance,  the  records  of  the 
Unemployment  Compensation  Commission  extended  to  this  whole 
group,  being  identical  with  the  Employment  Service  records  in  their 
locus,  in  the  local  office,  wouldn't  you  then  approach  the  optimum  or 
ideal  which  you  now  are  not  even  nearing? 

Mr.  Stocking.  No.  That  may  be  a  matter  of  judgment,  but  I  am 
sure  our  experience  indicates  that  this  is  an  unnecessary  step  for  ade- 
quate operation  of  the  Employment  Service.  You  don't  have  to  keep 
these  things  up  because  a  man  will  change  his  job  within  a  single  plant, 
and  if  you  tried  to  keep  all  the  records  up  to  date  you  would  find  that 
you  have  devoted  all  of  your  energies  to  keeping  your  cards  up  to  date, 
rather  than  improving  your  placement  activity. 

We  gave  a  great  deal  of  thought  to  this  matter.  A  complete  tabu- 
lation wouldn't  be  useful  enough  to  justify  the  effort.     It  would  be 


interesting,  maybe,  from  an  academic  point  of  view,  for  making  an 
analysis  of  the  texture  of  our  population;  but  it  isn't  necessary  for  the 
operation  of  the  Employment  Service. 

Dr.  Lamb.  At  the  present  time,  however,  the  agricultural  popula- 
tion, with  whom  we  are  directly  concerned,  tends  to  fall  through  this 
particular  sieve,  does  it  not?  I  mean  so  far  as  the  operations  of  your 
individual  employment  offices  are  concerned. 

Mr.  Stocking.  Not  necessarily 

Dr.  Lamb  (interposing).  I  am  not  talking  about  necessarily,  but 
actually.  Those  particular  cards  are  going  to  be  in  what,  for  all 
practical  purposes,  is  a  dead  file  in  most  offices. 

In  the  first  place,  you  don't  have  the  Farm  Placement  people  or  the 
people  in  those  offices  primarily  concentrating  on  the  farm  placement 
problem,  to  do  the  job,  do  you? 

Mr.  Stocking.  Only  insofar  as  we  are  inadequately  staffed  for  the 
farm  services.  The  process  of  picking  them  out  will  be  done  in  one 
process,  whether  it  is  farm  labor  or  not.  But  we  don't  have  enough 
representatives  of  farm  labor  engaged  in  farm  recruiting  and  place- 
ment activity  to  adequately  handle  the  results  and  go  to  work. 

Monsignor  O'Grady.  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Stocking  a  question. 
Have  you  figured  out,  Mr.  Stocking,  what  kind  of  a  set-up  is  necessary 
to  determine  how  many  additional  workers  are  needed  in  the  Imperial 
Valley,  for  instance;  you  have  two  men  at  the  present  time?  Is  it  just 
a  matter  of  counting,  or  is  it  a  matter  of  selling  something  to  the 
farmers  in  those  valleys?  Don't  you  have  to  do  a  selling  job  besides 
a  counting  job?  If  you  had  the  best  service  right  there,  could  you 
find  out  from  the  farmers  exactly  how  many  workers  they  needed 
right  now?     Let's  be  realistic  about  it. 


Mr.  Stocking.  Father,  finding  out  the  needs  is  to  a  certain  extent 
independent  of  whether  or  not  employers  give  you  orders.  That  is 
why  we  come  out  with  a  much  different  figure  from  the  beet  growers 
as  to  the  number  needed.  If  I  am  not  mistaken  I  believe  there  is  a 
request  in  for  the  importation  of  something  like  30,000  workers.  Our 
independent  figures  show  that  that  is  much  too  high.  For  instance, 
as  I  said  a  moment  ago,  we  follow  the  acreage,  the  amount  that  is 
being  planted  and  what  is  being  planted,  which  we  get  from  the 
Department  of  Agriculture,  locally.  They  give  us  the  amount  that 
is  planted,  what  it  is  planted  in,  and  the  growing  conditions — and  we 
translate  these  factors  into  the  labor  needs  as  well  as  they  can  be  trans- 
lated into  labor  needs,  making  allowances  for  weather  conditions  that 
may  change  and  have  a  very  important  bearing  on  the  estimates. 

Monsignor  O'Grady.  You  are  talking  about  sugar  beets? 

Mr.  Stocking.  Yes;  and  other  crops. 

Monsignor  O'Grady.  Consider  the  way  your  sugar  beets  are  har- 
vested ;  there  is  the  first  thinning,  the  second  thinning,  and  the  topping. 
In  between  comes  another  group  of  workers;  there  is  not  continuous 
employment  for  the  workers.  There  are  a  lot  of  adjustments  that 
have  to  be  made  in  the  whole  farming  set-up.  Wouldn't  that  cut 
down  the  need  for  agricultural  labor  in  that  area? 

Mr.  Stocking.  We  have  done  far  too  little  of  the  dovetailing  of 
employment,  if  that  is  what  you  refer  to.     I  think  everybody  recog- 


nizes  that  over  the  past  10  years  we  haven't  been  sufficiently  pressed 
for  a  labor  supply  so  that  we  have  given  sufficient  attention  to  that 
matter.  It  has  been  extremely  difficult  to  do  so  because  each  em- 
ployer, as  a  general  rule,  employed  his  own  devices  in  the  recruiting 
of  workers,  except  for  a  few  areas  where  that  has  not  been  the  typical 

Mr.  Rogers.  That  is  one  of  the  things  that  the  Department  of 
Agriculture  has  been  requesting  the  farmers  to  do,  insisting  that  they 
utilize  their  labor  better  and,  as  far  as  they  can,  dovetail  their  work. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  would  like  to  ask  a  question  with  respect  to  the  Japa- 
nese. Do  you  happen  to  know,  Mr.  Stocking,  how  many  Japanese 
were  customarily  used  in  sugar-beet  work? 


Mr.  Stocking.  Not  in  the  sugar-beet  fields,  but  I  saw  an  analysis 
that  we  made  the  other  day  which  indicated  that  28,000  of  the  total 
group,  I  believe,  that  were  of  working  age  and  had  had  previous  ex- 
perience in  agriculture  of  one  sort  or  another,  some  in  truck  gardening 
and  some  in  other  types  of  farm  work. 

Dr.  Lamb.  My  question  was  rather  as  to  whether  they  had  really 
created  much  of  a  shortage,  or  whether  the  shortage  situation,  if 
tli  ere  is  one,  arises  from  an  increased  acreage  rather  than  from  any 
withdrawal  of  Japanese? 

Mr.  Stocking.  Well,  it  is  a  little  bit  of  both,  because  if  I  remember 
correctly  they  proposed  in  the  resettlement  program  to  leave  a  certain 
group  of  Japanese  in  the  California  area  as  the  last  ones  to  be  moved, 
so  that  they  could  take  care  of  the  thinning  and  blocking  of  the  beets 
before  they  were  moved. 

Dr.  Lamb.  You  mean  who  customarily  worked  in  beets? 

Mr.  Stocking.  That  is  right,  they  were  m  that  employment  and 
that  was  the  consideration  that  led  to  making  them  the  last  ones  to 
be  moved  in  California. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  don't  know  at  what  time  any  such  agreement  was 
reached.  I  know  there  were  a  good  many  requests  on  the  part  of  the 
farmers  that  the  workers,  not  only  in  beets  but  in  other  areas,  be 
allowed  to  remain;  but  while  the  committee  was  out  there  we  never 
received  any  indication  that  General  DeWitt  would  acquiesce  for  a 
moment  in  any  such  arrangement  as  that.  Long  before  the  beets 
were  planted,  the  indications  as  to  the  probable  evacuation  of  the 
Japanese  and  their  unavailability  were  already  a  matter  of  public 

Consequently  no  beet  grower  ought  to  have  operated,  and  no 
public  service  ought  to  have  encouraged  him  to  operate,  on  any  such 
expectation.  It  seems  to  me,  this  shortage,  if  it  has  arisen,  doesn't 
come  from  that  source. 

Mr.  Stocking.  Well,  again  that  is  something  to  be  verified,  but  I 
understood  that  the  last  contingent,  in  one  of  the  valleys,  back  from 
the  coast  in  California  was  to  be  the  beet  workers,  and  they  were  to 
be  moved  at  about  this  time.  Incidentally,  there  has  been  a  delay  in 
moving  the  Japanese  so  that  they  are  not  going  to  be  moved  as  early 
as  originally  planned. 

Mr.  Roseman.  I  wonder  whether  the  people  from  the  War  Reloca- 
tion Authority  have  any  report  on  the  present  utilization  of  the 


Japanese?  We  have  been  deluged  with  telegrams,  and  I  am  sure  the 
Agriculture  Department  and  the  other  agencies  have  also,  from 
various  local  groups  asking  for  the  use  of  the  Japanese.  I  understand 
that  the  War  Relocation  Authority  has  established  certain  conditions 
under  which  they  mieht  be  made  available. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  would  like  you  to  make  it  clear  whether  you  are  talking 
about  their  availability  or  whether  you  are  talking  about  the  one 
instance  in  which  an  experiment  is  now  being  conducted  in  Oregon  by 
that  Authority? 

Mr.  Roseman.  I  was  thinking,  not  specifically  about  Oregon,  but 
about  Montana,  Idaho,  and  Colorado. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  would  like  to  have  Mr.  Rowalt  speak  on  that,  if  it  is 
satisfactory  to  the  chairman,  and  suggest  that  he  speak  first  with 
respect  to  Oregon,  because  there  you  are  having  a  test,  as  I  understand 
it,  of  the  terms  under  which  you  are  willing  to  carry  it  out? 


Mr.  Rowalt.  About  6  weeks  ago,  or  a  little  more,  General  DeWitt 
who  has  supervision  of  the  Japanese  in  the  assembly  centers,  issued  a 
set  of  stipulations  under  which  he  would  permit  Japanese  to  enter 
private  employment  outside  of  military  areas.  Among  the  stipula- 
tions were  these:  The  Governor  of  the  State  shall  guarantee  that  law 
and  order  is  preserved  in  the  State;  local  law-enforcement  officials  shall 
do  likewise — the  sheriff  and  the  county  attorney;  the  prospective  em- 
ployer shall  pay  the  transportation  of  the  Japanese  from  the  assembly 
center  to  the  place  of  work,  and  agree  to  pay  the  transportation  back 
again  after  he  has  finished  employing  them;  he  shall  provide  adequate 
housing  and  pay  prevailing  wages.  In  the  case  of  sugar  beets,  of 
course  wage  standards  are  set  by  the  Department  of  Agriculture. 
I  think  those  are  the  principal  conditions. 

Oregon  was  the  first  State  which  met  those  conditions.  Governor 
Sprague  signed  a  statement  to  the  effect  that  he  would  guarantee  to 
preserve  order,  and  the  local  officials  of  Malheur  County,  Oreg.,  did 
likewise.  I  forgot  one  particular  stipulation  which  was  that  they 
should  recruit  through  the  United  States  Employment  Service. 

Then  a  little  less  than  a  week  ago,  the  United  States  Employment 
Service  visited  the  Portland  Assembly  Center  to  recruit  Japanese  for 
.  he  eastern  Oregon  area. 

Dr.  Lamb.  May  I  interrupt  to  say  that,  as  I  understand  that,  the 
recruitment  was  to  be  voluntary? 


Mr.  Rowalt.  Entirely  voluntary;  yes.  They  visited  the  Portland 
Center,  I  think  it  was  on  last  Saturday,  Sunday,  and  Monday.  I  last 
night  got  a  report  to  tse  effect  that  of  the  whole  number  in  the  assem- 
bly center,  200  volunteered  to  work  in  the  beet  fields,  although  the 
employment  order  was  for  some  480.  A  special  train  was  sent  in 
there  yesterday  to  pick  up  the  200  who  had  volunteered,  but  when  the 
Japanese  came  to  the  actual  business  of  getting  on  the  train  and  leaving 
their  families  only  30  left,  about  6  or  8  percent  of  the  number  on  order. 


Apparently  the  Japanese  simply  have  a  cold  fear  in  their  hearts 
about  leaving  their  families,  while  in  the  midst  of  mass  evacuation 
and  going  into  Oregon,  Idaho,  or  Montana  to  work  in  agriculture,  even 
with  the  Governors  of  the  States  and  local  enforcement  officials 
guaranteeing  ttieir  safety.  Apparently  they  are  willing  to  go  only  in 
the  event  that  the  United  States  Army  guarantees  to  provide  protec- 
tion for  them,  and  of  course  the  Army  can't  do  that. 

So  I  think  we  are  making  a  very  grave  mistake  if  we  look  upon  the 
Japanese  as  being  a  very  great  labor  reserve  for  us  to  lean  upon  in 
case  of  an  emergency,  such  as  this. 

There  is  one  more  point  I  would  like  to  make.  When  the  Japanese 
people  reach  relocation  centers  they  are  going  to  be  very,  very  busy 
people.  They  are  being  moved  from  their  homes,  uprooted  and  taken 
to  15  or  20  new  communities,  many  of  them  in  the  heart  of  the  desert. 
The  Army  is  putting  up  housing  for  them,  that  is,  the  minimum  stand- 
ards of  housing — barracks,  a  mess  hall,  and  what  not. 

When  the  Japanese  arrive  from  the  assembly  centers  they  are  going 
to  have  before  them  the  job  of  subjugating  several  hundred  thousand 
acres  of  land,  levelling  it,  clearing  it,  putting  in  irrigation  systems,  and 
growing  crops  for  their  own  subsistence. 

They  are  going  to  be  busy  building  their  own  schools  and  churches, 
and  thus,  while  they  are  getting  established,  there  will  not  be  a  very 
great  labor  supply  available  from  relocation  centers.  We  are  making 
a  very  grave  mistake,  I  think,  in  looking  upon  them  as  being  a  very 
large  reservoir  of  migratory  workers. 


Mr.  Galarza.  May  I  ask  if  you  have  heard  any  reports  of  the  dis- 
placement of  Mexican  beet  workers  in  Colorado  by  the  Japanese? 

Dr.  Lamb.  No;  I  have  heard  none;  have  you? 

Mr.  Galarza.  Yes. 

Dr.  Lamb.  You  mean  that  the  Japanese  are  already  working  in 

Mr.  Galarza.  Yes;  the  Japanese  who  have  been  moved  from  the 
defense  area  on  the  coast. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  think  that  those  reports  are  inaccurate  unless  they 


.  Mr.  Rowalt  (interposing).  That  probably  goes  back  to  the  original 
voluntary  evacuation  period,  when  about  8,000  Japanese  left. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Do  you  have'  figures  on  the  number  who  voluntarily 
moved  to  Colorado? 

Mr.  Rowalt.  A  good  part  of  them  went  to  Colorado;  that  was  the 
most  friendly  State. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  ask  any  of  those  who  are 
present  to  speak  on  the  question  of  the  international  commission,  if, 
as,  and  when  such  an  importation  of  Mexicans  is  satisfactory  to  the 
Mexican  Government? 

The  Chairman.  I  think  that  was  touched  upon  by  one  witness,  but 
if  any  other  member  of  the  panel  cares  to  talk  about  it,  we  would  be 
glad  to  hear  from  him. 

Mr.  D  evany.  I  might  say  that  as  far  as  the  Immigration  Service 
is  concerned,  at  the  present  time  we  are  in  this  position,  that  we  have 
this  certification  from  the  Employment  Service,  and  we  have  the 
sugar-beet  growers  demanding  that  they  get  this  labor.     Mr.  Neal 


Kelly,  secretary  of  the  United  States  Sugar  Beet  Association,  said 
yesterday  that  he  would  advise  whether  or  not  the  sugar-beet  growers 
would  agree  to  these  tentative  stipulations  which  were  given  to  him, 
but  to  date  we  have  heard  nothing  from  him.  If  the  sugar-beet 
growers  agree  to  certain  stipulations,  the  Immigration  Service  is 
going  to  be  faced  with  the  problem  of  passing  it  on  to  the  State  De- 
partment. We  have  to  give  some  answer  to  the  employers  because 
they  are  pleading  for  these  laborers.  Not  only  in  California  but  in 
Colorado,  Idaho,  Montana,  and  Texas,  all  asserting  that  the  labor  is 
not  available.  Apparently  from  what  was  said  here  this  morning  the 
Japanese  cannot  relieve  that  situation. 

The  only  other  alternative,  as  I  see  it,  is  for  the  Employment 
Service  to  take  another  shot  at  it,  but  apparently  they  can't  because 
they  don't  have  the  funds.  The  fact  remains  that  the  Immigration 
Service  is  holding  these  applications  at  the  present  time  with  the 
growers  demanding  some  action. 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  anything  else  on  which  any  member  of  the 
panel  would  care  to  make  a  statement? 

Dr.  Lamb.  Speaking  for  myself  alone,  I  would  like  to  say  that  the 
standards  as  set  down  by  the  group  at  the  meetings  held  under  the 
call  of  Governor  McNutt  seemed  to  me  to  be  unworkable  for  the 
reason  that  there  is  no  adequate  machinery  for  enforcing  them. 

administrative  methods  discussed 

I  understand  that  the  Department  of  Labor  has  certain  responsi- 
bilities, but  I  am  prepared  to  question  whether  the  Department  of 
Labor  would  be  in  position  to  police  the  other  agencies  involved,  as 
would  a  commission  in  which  was  directly  lodged  the  responsibility 
for  the  importation  of  these  people  and  the  guaranteeing  of  their  safe 
return  to  Mexico.  In  that  case,  the  policing  machinery,  which,  for 
example,  under  the  Tolan  bill,  would  be  in  the  Department  of  Labor, 
could  be  extended  to  this  operation  as  well  as  to  the  interstate  oper- 
ation, and  would  be  under  such  commission  rather  than  under  a 
separate  enforcement  interagency  which,  I  think,  would  be  very 
hard  to  operate,  whether  with  respect  to  the  Department  of  Labor's 
policing,  or  the  Employment  Service's  own  guaranties,  or  the  guaran- 
ties on  the  part  of  the  Department  of  Agriculture,  as,  for  example, 
the  investigation  of  the  adequacy  of  the  housing.  All  of  those  things 
seem  to  me  to  need  one  central  responsiblity  on  which  the  pressures 
can  beat. 

Mrs.  Beyer.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  speak  on  that  for  a  moment? 

There  is  always  a  tendency  in  this  country,  whenever  we  want  to 
do  something,  to  set  up  another  commission.  While  there  must  be 
complete  agreement  here  between  the  Mexican  Government  and 
the  United  States  Government,  to  separate  the  Mexicans  for 
administrative  purposes  from  our  domestic  labor  will  lead  to  all 
sorts  of  problems  and  jealousies  between  one  group  and  the  other. 
We  ought  to  see  that  the  regular  machinery  of  government  is  used  to 
give  the  Mexicans  the  same  protection  we  give  to  our  own  people. 

If  you  set  them  apart,  you  immediately  set  up  class  distinctions. 
The  Mexicans  will  get  something  that  the  other  people  will  not.  If 
you  have  a  separate  agency  saying,  "for  these  Mexican  workers  we  have 
to  have  this  type  of  housing;  for  the  domestic  labor  anything  will  do" 
you  will  lose  the  whole  benefit  of  having  standards  in  this  field. 

60396— 42— pt.  33 4 


All  of  the  agencies  here  represented,  I  feel  sure,  welcome  the  inaugu- 
ration of  standards  that  could  be  used  for  domestic  labor  as  well  as 
for  the  Mexican  group.  I  should  prefer  to  see  a  close  working  arrange- 
ment between  the  agencies  that  have  authority  in  the  field,  under 
treaty  arrangements  or  whatever  would  be  set  up,  rather  than  to 
duplicate  that  machinery  for  a  single  group.  I  think  the  Mexican 
workers  would  get  more  in  the  end  from  such  an  arrangement  than 
they  would  if  they  were  segregated  and  set  apart. 

There  is  another  point  to  be  considered.  I  am  an  old  Government 
worker,  I  nave  been  here  for  years,  and  I  know  that  if  you  set  up  a 
commission  and  they  get  a  vested  interest  in  bringing  in  Mexican 
labor,  they  will  continue  to  bring  in  Mexican  labor.  They  will  have 
a  big  staff  and  there  is  nothing  for  the  staff  to  do  except  to  see  that 
the  Mexican  labor  is  protected.  It  will  be  to  the  interest  of  the  staff 
to  see  that  Mexican  labor  continues  to  be  brought  in;  otherwise  they 
will  have  no  jobs.  That  is  just  an  old  phenomenon  in  Washington 
and  I  think  we  ought  to  bear  that  in  mind. 

The  Chairman.  If  I  were  a  judge,  sitting  on  this  case,  I  would  say 
that  the  plaintiff  hasn't  proved  his  need,  that  is  the  need  of  the 
importation  of  Mexicf  n  labor  at  this  time. 

Mrs.  Beyer.  I  think  we  should  see  what  we  can  do  here  before  we 
bring  in  the  Mexicans. 

Mr.  Galarza.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  comment  on  Mrs. 
Bever's  statement. 

On  the  matter  of  segregating  the  Mexicans  for  preferential  treat- 
ment, I  would  say  that  the  Mexican  Government  probably  would 
limit  its  interest  to  such  groups  as  would  be  brought  in  subseqnently, 
and  not  to  those  who  are  already  here,  who  have  definitely  passed 
out  of  their  control. 

I  defer  absolutely,  almost  abjectly,  to  Mrs.  Beyer's  experience  in 
Government  administration.  But  I  should  be  unhappy  to  dissent 
from  her  views  of  it.  But  I  should  think  that  the  actual  setting  up 
of  standards  that  are  operative,  and  behind  which  the  United  States 
Government  agencies  aie  really  pushing  for  one  group  of  farm  workers, 
would  tend  to  level  up  the  standards  for  all  agricultural  labor.  Those 
of  us  who  have  a  Mexican  background  could  see  no  happier  event 
than  the  use  of  Mexican  workers  as  an  instrument  for  the  improve- 
ment of  the  standard  of  living  of  all  agricultural  labor. 

On  the  second  point  I  would  sav  that  if  such  a  commission  were 
set  up,  the  tendency  from  the  Mexican  viewpoint,  would  be  to  restrict 
as  much  as  possible,  the  flow  of  labor  north  although  giving  consider- 
ation to  the  needs  of  the  United  States,  because  Mexico  is  entering 
a  period  in  which  the  use  of  manpower,  especially  in  the  northern 
tier  of  States,  is  a  very  serious  national  problem. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  think  we  may  be  talking  about  an  academic  matter 
because  it  is  quite  possible  that  the  Mexican  Government  will  say 
no,  and  that  will  end  the  thing  for  the  time  being.  It  will  end  the 
question  of  the  importation  of  Mexicans;  it  will  not  end  the  larger 
question  which  we  have  all  been  talking  about  or  talking  around; 
and  that  is,  how  to  improve  the  operations  of  the  Farm  Placement 
Service  and  the  related  agencies  such  as  the  Department  of  Agriculture 
and  the  Department  of  Labor,  so  as  to  get  out  the  agricultural  labor 


I  also  don't  enjoy  finding  myself  in  a  difference  of  opinion  with  Mrs. 
Beyer  on  the  question  of  standards. 

However,  I  think  that  some  safeguard  might  be  worked  out  with 
respect  to  the  proposed  commission,  to  operate  only  for  the  duration 
of  the  war,  or  give  it  some  such  emergency  character.  I  recognize  that 
when  the  emergency  is  over  there  is  going  to  be  an  effort  to  prove  that 
the  emergency  still  exists  in  a  new  form. 

As  far  as  the  operation  of  the  commission  itself  is  concerned,  I  have 
the  impression,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  there  are  at  the  present  time 
no  standards,  with  the  possible  exception  of  the  sugar-beet  arrange- 
ments of  the  Department  of  Agriculture,  that  any  standards  would  be 
an  improvement;  but  no  standards  would  be  real  unless  they  had  some 
enforcement  machinery.  I  doubt  whether  the  machinery  which  would 
be  established  would  be  effective  unless  it  had  some  over-all  imple- 
mentation. So  many  agencies  would  be  involved  that  it  would  be 
very  difficult  to  find  under  which  shell  the  pea  was  at  any  given  time. 
And  I  think  in  view  of  the  fact  that  many  outside  pressures  will  have 
a  very  distinct  interest  in  keeping  the  pea  rapidly  moving  from  shell 
to  shell,  thai  the  pressures  are  going  to  be  pretty  great  and  the  desire 
to  avoid  facing  up  to  the  maintenance  of  standards  is  going  to  be 
unusually  pressing. 

Mr.  Rogers.  I  would  like  to  make  just  this  one  observation  without 
going  into  some  of  the  other  details.  The  problem  seems  to  be  one 
which  goes  beyond  just  the  Placement  Service.  The  question  of 
transportation  and  the  question  of  housing  have  been  brought  up  here. 
So  in  any  plans  for  our  general  farm  labor  program,  over  and  beyond 
the  use  of  Mexicans  or  the  use  of  Japanese  or  any  other  group,  it  would 
seem  that  we  need  to  go  further  in  our  thinking  than  just  a  placement 


Mr.  Laves.  I  just  wanted  to  raise  one  question.  I  am  not  sure 
that  I  get  the  conclusion  of  your  remarks  so  far  as  this  international 
commission  is  concerned.  Do  you  think  we  should  not  be  moving 
in  the  direction  of  attempting  to  establish  an  international  commission, 
whether  temporary  or  long  range,  to  handle  this  problem,  which  is  a 
problem  in  United  States-Mexican  relations;  or  are  you  simply  saying 
that  if  there  is  to  be  such  a  commission  we  must  go  further  now  and 
establish  additional  machinery?  If  the  latter  is  what  you  want  I 
think  perhaps  we  should  give  some  attention  to  it. 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  think  that  for  this  particular  request,  the  question  of 
whether  or  not  you  have  a  commission  may  be  made  academic  by  the 
refusal  of  the  Mexican  Government  to  acquiesce  in  the  request.  So 
that  this  crisis  will  pass. 

Mr.  Laves.  That  is  for  the  immediate  6,000? 

Dr.  Lamb.  Yes;  and  probably  for  the  remainder  of  this  year.  If 
that  comes  to  pass,  then  the  question  of  a  commission  becomes  a 
longer  range  one  and  I  don't  think  it  is  a  question  which  should  be 
put  aside  necessarily.  In  fact,  if  there  is  any  expectation  that  during 
the  war  we  will  import  Mexicans,  the  question  of  a  commission  ought 
to  continue  to  be  considered.  It  is  much  more  likely  of  acceptance 
if  the  pressure  is  not  successful  immediately,  because  obviously  you 
can't  set  up  a  commission  before  you  can  bring  in  6,000  workers. 


So  that  I  would  advocate  a  commission  as  the  over-all  supervision 
for  long-range  plans  for  importation,  if  the  Mexican  Government  is 
willing  to  acquiesce  in  any  importation. 

The  Chairman.  Of  course,  the  panel  understands  that  Dr.  Lamb 
is  speaking  for  himself? 

Dr.  Lamb.  That  is  right;  I  prefaced  my  remarks  with  that. 

Mr.  Laves.  I  would  only  hope  that  we  would  not  find  ourselves  in 
this  same  position  when  the  next  request  comes  in.  Suppose  that 
your  expectation  turns  out  to  be  wrong,  and  that  once  we  pass  this 
immediate  crisis,  even  in  spite  of  the  fact  that  the  Mexican  Govern- 
ment should  say  no  and  we  are  unable  to  do  anything  about  the  imme- 
diate 6,000,  supposing  now  that  within  the  next  12-month  period  this 
problem  does  recur,  shouldn't  we  be  ready  to  meet  that  situation  and 
be  moving  along  in  the  direction  of  the  establishment  of  a  commission? 
Because  I  would  hate  to  see  us  meeting  in  6  months  and  saying,  "It 
is  too  late  again." 

Dr.  Lamb.  Speaking  for  myself  I  would  say  yes,  but  whether  the 
committee  would  support  that,  or  whether  the  group  here  would  be 
willing  to  concur  in  such  a  proposition 

The  Chairman  (interposing).  I  will  say,  Dr.  Lamb,  that  we  hold 
you  in  the  highest  respect  and  we  will  give  you  a  hearing  on  that. 

I  want  to  say,  folks,  that  we  are  deeply  grateful  to  you  for  coming 
up  here  and  giving  us  your  time  this  morning.  The  idea  is  simply 
this,  that  the  pressure  has  come  to  this  committee  from  Congressmen 
and' different  people,  and  we  just  held  this  round-table  discussion  to 
show  to  them  and  to  ourselves  that  it  is  a  big  problem,  that  it  isn't 
just  one  that  you  can  toss  off  and  say  to  California,  "We  will  give  you 
10,000  Mexicans,"  or  to  Texas,  "We  will  give  you  40,000"— that  isn't 
it, 'it  is  a  bigger  problem.  So  thinking  along  together  this  morning, 
speaking  for  myself,  at  least,  I  think  it  has  been  a  very  valuable 
contribution  to  us,  and  we  are  touching  it  lightly  at  this  time  because 
we  know  the  ramifications  from  the  international  situation. 

Thank  you  very  much  for  coming  here. 

The  committee  will  now  stand  adjourned. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:30  p.  m.,  the  committee  was  adjourned,  subject 
to  the  call  of  the  chairman.) 


Exhibit  1. — A  Symposium  on  the  Question  of  Need  for  Importa- 
tion of  Mexican  Labor 

The  following  questions  were  submitted  by  the  committee  to  a  number  of 
Federal  agencies.     Their  statements  follow  the  questions. 

Questions  on  the  Need  for  Importation  of  Mexican  Labor 

1.  Do  you  consider  it  necessary  that  the  labor  supply  in  the  United  States  be 
augmented  at  this  time  by  the  importation  of  Mexican  workers?  If  so,  how  many 
do  you  consider  necessary? 

2.  If  you  see  no  need  for  the  importation  of  Mexican  workers  at  this  time,  do 
you  think  we  will  need  them  in  the  future? 

3.  Do  you  consider  that  any  agency  or  agencies  in  the  United  States  now  have 
the  responsibility  for  assessing  and  certifying  the  demand  for  Mexican  labor? 

4.  Are  you  in  favor  of  or  opposed  to  the  recruiting  of  Mexican  workers  by  private 
individuals,  firms,  or  labor  contractors? 

5.  Do  you  think  that  any  arrangement  for  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor 
should  have  the  full  approval  of  the  Mexican  Government? 

6.  If  specific  requirements  under  which  Mexican  workers  are  to  be  employed 
in  the  United  States  are  stipulated  by  the  Mexican  Government,  should  the 
American  Government  permit  the  importation  of  such  workers  under  conditions 
which  do  not  meet  these  requirements? 

7.  Do  you  think  that  the  treatment  accorded  Mexican  workers  in  the  United 
States  has  alienated  any  of  them  from  our  form  of  government? 

8.  While  many  persons  have  said  Mexican  labor  is  vitally  needed  in  the  United 
States,  others  have  said  that  their  presence  has  been  detrimental  to  American 
wage  standards  and  welfare  programs.  Can  you  suggest  how  the  first  condition 
could  be  met  without  affecting  the  second? 

9.  In  the  event  Mexican  labor  is  brought  into  the  United  States,  do  you  think 
minimum  standards  of  wages,  housing,  and  other  working  conditions,  should  be 
laid  down?  If  so,  what  agency  or  agencies  should  prescribe  and  enforce  these 

10.  If  minimum  standards  of  wages  and  working  conditions  were  prescribed  and 
enforced  for  Mexican  workers  in  the  United  States,  do  you  think  the  setting  up  of 
such  standards  would  induce  sufficient  American  labor  to  migrate  to  areas  where 
shortages  are  claimed? 

11.  In  the  event  Mexican  labor  is  brought  into  the  United  Sttates,  do  you  think 
transportation  expenses  to  this  country  and  return  to  Mexico  should  be  paid  by 

12.  Many  persons  have  complained  in  the  past  that  Mexican  workers  brought 
into  certain  occupations  and  areas  fail  to  remain  in  these  occupations  and  areas. 
Do  you  think  Mexican  workers  should  be  compelled  to  so  remain?  If  so,  by  what 

13.  Do  you  approve  of  the  proposal  forthe  establishment  of  a  commission  com- 
posed of  representatives  of  the  United  States  and  Mexican  Governments  to  regu- 
late the  importation  and  employment  of  Mexican  labor  in  the  United  States? 

Exhibit  A. — Statement  by  Laurence  Dtjggan,  Adviser  on  Political 
Relations,  Department  of  State,  Washington,  D.  C. 

I  take  pleasure  in  transmitting  herewith  a  statement  which  has  been  prepared 
on  the  basis  of  the  questionnaire  which  you  enclosed  with  your  letter  of  May  13. 

I  note  that  the  committee  would  also  like  to  receive  a  statement  of  the  repre- 
sentations, if  any,  made  to  the  Department  during  the  past  year  by  individuals 



or  organizations  supporting  or  opposing  the  importation  of  Mexican  workers.  In 
this  connection  I  am  pleased  to  advise  you  that  no  specific  representations  have 
been  addressed  directly  to  this  Department  in  support  of  the  importation  of 
Mexican  workers  although  a  few  inquiries  have  been  received  as  to  their  avail- 
ability. Only  one  representation  has  been  received  in  opposition  to  such  a  move, 
and  a"  copy  thereof  was  transmitted  to  the  executive  secretary  of  your  committee 

1.  Do  you  consider  it  necessary  that  the  labor  supply  in  the  United  States  be 
augmented  at  this  time  by  the  importation  of  Mexican  workers?  If  so,  how  many 
do  you  consider  necessary? — A.  As  the  determination  of  the  existence  or  non- 
existence of  a  labor  supply  in  the  United  States  is  a  purely  domestic  matter,  this 
Department  is  not  qualified  to  express  an  opinion  on  this  question. 

2.  If  you  see  no  need  for  the  importation  of  Mexican  workers  at  this  time,  do 
you  think  we  will  need  them  in  the  future?— A.  In  the  opinion  of  this  Depart- 
ment, future  labor  needs,  like  the  present  labor  supply,  can  be  accurately  deter- 
mined only  by  careful  analysis  by  the  appropriate  governmental  agencies. 

3.  Do  you  consider  that  any  agency  or  agencies  in  the  United  States  now  have 
the  responsibility  for  assessing  and  certifying  the  demand  for  Mexican  labor? — 
A.  This  Department  understands  that  several  agencies  could  properly  survey  and 
certify  the  shortage  of  labor,  but  it  is  not  in  position  to  suggest  to  which  agency 
that  responsibility  should  be  delegated  in  the  present  emergency.  It  is  believed, 
however,  that  the  shortage  should  not  necessarily  be  considered  a  demand  for 
Mexican  labor,  but  for  labor  in  general. 

4  Are  you  in  favor  of  or  opposed  to  the  recruiting  of  Mexican  workers  by  pri- 
vate individuals,  firms,  or  labor  contractors?— A.  This  Department  is  strongly 
of  the  opinion  that  the  direct  recruiting  of  Mexican  workers  by  private  individ- 
uals, firms,  or  labor  contractors  would  be  most  undesirable.  In  this  connection 
I  refer  to  my  letter  of  May  11  in  which  are  pointed  out  the  inevitable  difficulties 
attendant  on  any  large  movement  of  Mexican  workers  to  this  country  as  an  emer- 
gency measure,  such  as  employment,  transportation  to  the  United  States  and  from 
place  to  p7ace  within  this  country,  housing  and  other  care,  and  return  to  Mexico 
upon  completion  of  the  work  for  which  they  were  needed.  The  Department  is 
of  the  opinion  that  these  difficulties  can  only  be  overcome  by  a  carefully  formu- 
lated plan  insuring  adequate  compensation  and  proper  treatment  of  these  workers 
and  it  doubts  that  the  desired  standards  can  be  met  by  private  enterprise. 

5.  Do  vou  think  that  anv  arrangement  for  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor 
should  have  the  full  approval  of  the  Mexican  Government? — A.  This  Department 
is  strongly  of  the  opinion  that  the  full  approval  and  cooperation  of  the  Mexican 
Government  to  any  arrangement  for  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor  should 
be  secured. 

6.  If  specific  requirements  under  which  Mexican  workers  are  to  be  employed  in 
the  Uuited  States  are  stipulated  by  the  Mexican  Government,  should  the  American 
Government  permit  the  importation  of  such  workers  under  conditions  which  do 
not  meet  these  requirements? — A.  The  answer  to  question  5  also  applies  to  this 
question.  It  would  be  considered  most  unwise  for  this  Government  to  permit  the 
entrance  of  Mexican  workers  into  the  United  States  under  conditions  which  do 
not  have  the  approval  of  the  Mexican  Government. 

7.  Do  vou  think  that  the  treatment  accorded  Mexican  workers  in  the  United 
States  has  alienated  any  of  them  from  our  form  of  government?— A.  It  is  not 
believed  that  any  dissatisfaction  among  Mexican  workers  in  the  United  States,  or 
among  those  who  have  returned  to  Mexico,  is  directed  against  our  form  of  govern- 
ment. Information  is  available,  however,  that  dissatisfaction  has  arisen  and 
has  found  expression  in  resentment  against  our  country.  This  resentment  has 
been  one  of  the  unfavorable  factors  in  the  further  improvement  of  relations  with 
Mexico,  and  it  affords  a  field  for  anti-American  propaganda  which  Axis  agents 
are  utilizing. 

8.  While  many  persons  have  said  Mexican  labor  is  vitally  needed  in  the  United 
States,  others  have  said  that  their  presence  has  been  detrimental  to  American 
wage  standards  and  welfare  programs.  Can  you  suggest  how  the  first  condition 
could  be  met  without  affecting  the  second?— A.  It  would  seem  that  the  com- 
plaints set  forth  by  those  who  say  that  the  presence  of  Mexican  workers  is  "detri- 
mental to  American  wage  standards  and  welfare  programs"  are  strong  indications 
that  the  securing  of  any  additional  workers  from  Mexico  should  certainly  include 
provisions  as  to  adequate  wage  scales  and  the  return  to  Mexico  of  all  laborers 
when  thev  have  completed  the  work  for  which  they  have  been  contracted. 

9.  In  the  event  Mexican  labor  is  brought  into  the  United  States,  do  you  think 
minimum  standards  of  wages,  housing,  and  other  working  conditions  should  be 


laid  down?  If  so,  what  agency  or  agencies  should  prescribe  and  enforce  these 
standards? — A.  As  indicated  above  and  in  my  previous  letter  this  Department  is 
strongly  of  the  opinion  that  any  bringing  in  of  Mexican  workers  should  be  con- 
ditioned upon  the  laying  down  of  adequate  wage  standards  and  be  accompanied 
by  the  other  guaranties  previously  mentioned.  It  appears,  however,  that  no 
existing  agencies  of  the  Government  are  specifically  authorized  to  prescribe  and 
enforce  these  standards.  It  is  therefore  deemed  desirable  that  a  special  agency 
be  created  for  that  purpose  if  it  is  not  found  practicable  to  assign  this  responsibility 
and  authority  to  an  existing  agency. 

10.  If  minimum  standards  of  wages  and  working  conditions  were  prescribed 
and  enforced  for  Mexican  workers  in  the  United  States,  do  you  think  the  setting 
up  of  such  standards  would  induce  sufficient  American  labor  to  migrate  to  areas 
where  shortages  are  claimed? — A.  As  the  determination  of  the  existence  or  non- 
existence of  a  labor  supply  in  the  United  States  is  a  purely  domestic  matter,  as 
set  forth  in  the  answer  to  the  first  question  above,  this  Department  is  not  qualified 
to  express  an  opinion  on  this  question. 

11.  In  the  event  Mexican  labor  is  brought  into  the  United  States,  do  you  think 
transportation  expenses  to  this  country  and  return  to  Mexico  should  be  paid  by 
employers?- — A.  As  indicated  under  No.  8  of  this  questionnaire,  it  is  believed 
that  provision  should  be  made  for  the  return  to  Mexico  of  all  laborers  brought  in, 
when  they  have  completed  the  work  for  which  they  have  been  contracted. 

12.  Many  persons  have  complained  in  the  past  that  Mexican  workers  brought 
into  certain  occupations  and  areas  fail  to  remain  in  these  occupations  and  areas. 
Do  you  think  Mexican  workers  should  be  compelled  to  so  remain?  If  so,  by  what 
machinery? — A.  This  Department  is  strongly  of  the  opinion  that  only  such 
Mexican  workers  as  are  actually  needed  should  be  brought  in,  and  that  they  should 
be  returned  to  Mexico  when  they  have  completed  the  work  for  which  they  were 

13.  Do  you  approve  of  the  proposal  for  the  establishment  of  a  commission 
composed  of  representatives  of  the  United  States  and  Mexican  Governments  to 
regulate  the  importation  and  employment  of  Mexican  labor  in  the  United  States? — 
A.  It  seems  of  doubtful  practicability  to  undertake  to  regulate  the  emergency 
importation  and  employment  of  Mexican  labor  in  the  United  States  by  the  for- 
mation of  a  joint  commission.  It  is,  however,  possible  that  if  a  proposal  is 
made  to  the  Mexican  Government,  that  Government  may  wish  to  participate  in 
some  manner  in  the  handling  of  the  movement  of  workers. 

Exhibit  B. — Statement  by  Lemuel  B.  Schofield,  Special  Assistant  to  the 
Attorney  General,  Department  of  Justice,  Immigration  and  Naturali- 
zation Service,  Washington,  May  20,  1942 

Responding  categorically  to  the  questions  contained  in  the  enclosure  accompany- 
ing your  letter,  you  are  advised  that  the  following  answers  express  the  views  of 
this  Service: 

1.  In  relation  to  the  question  of  the  need  for  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor, 
this  Service  is  relying  upon  a  certification  in  this  regard  submitted  by  the  United 
States  Employment  Service,  and  to  date  that  Service  has  certified  that  there  is  a 
need  for  the  importation  of  6,000  such  workers.  This  Service  is  also  relying  upon 
the  conclusion  of  the  other  interested  governmental  agencies  that  at  the  present 
time  Japanese  labor  in  this  country  cannot  be  utilized.  This  Service  does  not 
believe  it  is  impossible  to  utilize  Japanese  labor,  and  believes  that  further  con- 
sideration should  be  given  to  that  source  of  supply. 

2.  The  need  for  the  importation  of  additional  Mexican  workers  cannot  be  stated 
definitely  at  this  time,  but  indications  point  to  a  need  for  the  importation  of 
additional  labor  in  the  future.  This  conclusion  is  supported  by  the  fact  that  this 
Service  has  received  a  number  of  applications  for  Mexican  laborers  from  cotton 
growers,  vegetable  growers,  and  from  the  Southern  Pacific  Railroad  for  track 

3.  It  is  the  view  of  this  Service  that  it  is  the  province  and  responsibility  of  the 
United  States  Employment  Service  to  certify  the  need  of  the  importation  of 
Mexican  labor. 

4.  The  Immigration  and  Naturalization  Service  is  not  opposed  to  the  recruiting 
of  Mexican  laborers  provided  Japanese  labor  is  not  available,  but  such  recruiting 
should  not  take  place  until  the  Mexican  Government  has  indicated  its  approval 
to  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor  into  the  United  States  and  the  Attorney 
General  has  authorized  the  admission  of  such  laborers  for  a  temporary  period. 


5.  The  Immigration  and  Naturalization  Service  is  of  the  opinion  that  the 
importation  of  Mexican  labor  must  and  should  have  the  full  approval  of  the 
Mexican  Government. 

6.  No  attempts  should  be  made  to  import  Mexican  labor  except  where  such 
action  is  in  accordance  with  the  conditions  and  stipulations  required  by  the 
Mexican  Government. 

7.  There  is  no  definite  indication  that  Mexican  workers  have  been  alienated 
from  our  form  of  government  because  of  the  treatment  accorded  them  by  this 
Government,  but  it  is  possible  that  such  a  feeling  has  grown  up  in  the  cases  of 
some  individuals,  but  whether  this  is  attributable  to  the  treatment  accorded  them 
by  this  country  it  is  impossible  to  say  with  any  degree  of  certainty. 

8.  The  criticism  that  the  importation  of  Mexican  labor  has  been  detrimental 
to  American  wage  standards  and  welfare  programs  can  be  overcome  by  the 
adoption  of  necessary  safeguards  which  have  been  provided  and  tentatively 
approved  by  the  committee  consisting  of  representatives  of  the  various  interested 
Government  agencies,  including  representatives  of  your  committee,  considering 
the  matter  of  the  need  for  importation  of  Mexican  labor. 

9.  For  a  number  of  reasons  minimum  standards  of  wages,  housing,  and  other 
working  conditions  should  be  adopted  not  only  for  the  protection  of  the  worker, 
but  for  the  protection  of  this  Government  and  as  an  inducement  to  the  Govern- 
ment of  Mexico  to  permit  its  citizens  to  enter  this  country  to  engage  in  such  labor. 

10.  It  is  believed  that  the  minimum  standards  of  wages  and  working  conditions 
which  have  been  tentatively  agreed  upon  by  the  committee  composed  of  the 
various  interested  Government  agencies,  including  representatives  of  your  com- 
mittee, should  be  adopted,  but  it  might  be  observed  that  these  standards  will  not 
materially  affect  the  labor  supply  in  this  country.  However,  a  substantial  in- 
crease in  wages  in  certain  agricultural  fields  might  be  an  inducement  to  some  ad- 
ditional American  labor  to  accept  this  type  of  employment. 

11.  The  Immigration  and  Naturalization  Service  believes  that  the  transporta- 
tion expenses  of  the  individual  worker  from  Mexico  should  be  paid  from  the 
point  of  recruitment  to  the  point  of  employment  and  return  to  the  point  of  re- 

12.  If  Mexican  workers  are  permitted  to  enter  the  United  States  to  engage  in 
specific  employment,  they  should  be  required  to  continue  to  engage  in  such  em- 
ployment unless  a  change  is  authorized  by  this  Government,  and  if  there  is  a 
failure  to  do  so,  the  individual  should  be  required  to  return  to  Mexico.  Under 
the  conditions  of  admission  it  would  be  incumbent  upon  the  employer  to  keep  the 
Immigration  and  Naturalization  Service  informed  concerning  each  individual 
employed  by  him,  and  if  there  are  any  indications  to  the  employer  that  any  par- 
ticular  alien  intends  to  abscond  he  would  be  required  to  notify  the  Immigration 
and  Naturalization  Service  immediately  so  that  proper  steps  could  be  taken  to 
see  that  the  individual  is  returned  to  Mexico.  Where  such  an  alien  refuses  to 
either  engage  in  employment  or  return  to  Mexico  he  could  be  arrested  for  remain- 
ing in  the  United  States  in  violation  of  his  status  and  be  made  the  subject  of 
deportation  proceedings. 

13.  Relative  to  the  proposal  for  the  establishment  of  a  commission  composed 
of  representatives  of  the  United  States  and  Mexican  Governments  to  regulate  the 
importation  and  employment  of  Mexican  labor  in  the  United  States,  this  Service 
does  not  feel  justified  in  submitting  a  definite  answer  to  this  statement  in  view 
of  the  fact  that  the  full  proposal  is  not  available  to  the  Service,  but  it  is  the  view 
of  the  Service  at  this  time  that  the  matter  of  importing  Mexican  labor  can  be 
handled  effectively  by  the  various  interested  Government  agencies,  such  as  the 
United  States  Employment  Service,  the  State  Department,  and  the  Department 
of  Justice.  , 

Information  of  this  Service  is  that  approximately  120,000  Japanese  have  been 
evacuated  from  certain  areas  in  the  Western  Defense  Command  and  are  gathered 
in  various  places  in  large  numbers  where  they  are  idle.  Further  information  is 
to  the  effect  that  such  Japanese  would  volunteer  in  sufficient  numbers  to  perform 
the  necessary  blocking  and  thinning  in  the  beet-sugar  fields,  that  they  could  ade- 
quately be  guarded,  and  that  no  unsurmountable  difficulty  would  be  encountered 
or  no  adverse  public  opinion  which  could  not  be  overcome. 

It  is  therefore  recommended  that  the  immediate  use  of  Japanese  labor  be 
further  considered  before  a  decision  is  reached  to  import  labor  from  Mexico. 


Exhibit  C. — Statement  by  John  J.  Corson,  Director,  Bureau  of  Employ- 
ment Security,  Federal  Security  Agency,  Social  Security  Board,  Wash- 
ington, D.  C. 

The  United  States  Employment  Service  is  primarily  concerned  with  the  first  of 
the  series  of  questions  you  have  presented.  After  diligent  efforts  with  the  limited 
staff  and  inadequate  resources  currently  available  to  this  Service  to  recruit  all 
available  workers  qualified  for  labor  in  the  beet  sugar  fields  and  willing  to  accept 
such  employment,  we  have  had  to  certif3r  to  the  Immigration  and  Naturalization 
Service  of  the  Department  of  Justice  that  there  was  a  need  for  the  importation  of 
6,000  Mexican  workers.  This  number  of  workers  are  needed  at  the  present  time 
for  the  thinning  and  blocking  of  sugar  beets  in  California,  Idaho,  and  Montana. 

The  best  answers  I  can  suggest  to  the  other  questions  you  have  listed  are, 
I  believe,  found  in  the  statement  of  policy  and  standards  worked  out  by  the 
Interdepartmental  Committee  created  by  the  War  Manpower  Commission. 
Representatives  of  your  staff  participated  in  meetings  in  which  this  statement 
was  prepared.  The  statement  received  unanimous  approval  of  the  participants. 
I  believe  that  representatives  of  your  committee  have  copies  of  this  statement. 
After  it  has  been  approved  by  the  Commission,  it  will  be  transmitted  to  the 
State  Department  as  a  basis  for  negotiating  with  the  Mexican  Government. 

Exhibit  D. — Statement  by  Walter  H.  C.  Laves,  Director,  Division  of 
Inter-American  Activities  in  the  United  States,  Office  of  the  Coordi- 
nator cf  Inter-American  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C,  May  20,  1942 

The  Office  of  the  Coordinator  of  Inter-American  Affairs  is  interested  in  the 
question  of  bringing  Mexicans  to  this  country  for  farm  or  other  labor  because  of 
the  reports  we  have  had  that  the  experiences  of  this  type  of  worker  in  the  past  has 
reacted  unfavorably  upon  our  friendly  relations  with  Mexico.  The  situation  un- 
doubtedly militates  against  improving  and  maintaining  amicable  relations  be- 
tween our  Government  and  the  Mexican  Government  and  between  our  people  and 
the  Mexican  people. 

We,  therefore,  feel  that  if  it  is  necessary  to  bring  in  Mexican  nationals  to  do 
farm  and  other  labor,  it  should  be  carried  out  with  the  strictest  supervision  so  as 
to  safeguard  the  interests  of  these  workers  while  in  this  country  and  assure  their 
proper  repatriation  after  their  services  are  no  longer  needed. 

Answering  your  questions: 

1.  We  consider  it  advisable  and  essential  to  depend  upon  the  United  States 
Employment  Service  to  certify  to  the  United  States  Immigration  Service  its 
decision  whether  or  not  Mexican  workers  should  be  brought  in  at  the  present  time. 
If  the  answer  is  in  the  affirmative,  the  United  States  Employment  Service  should 
also  specify  the  number  needed. 

2.  The  answer  to  No.  1  also  answers  No.  2. 

3.  No,  we  do  not  believe  that  there  is  any  agency  in  the  United  States  which 
now  has  specifically  the  responsibility  for  assessing  and  certifying  the  demand  for 
Mexican  labor. 

4.  We  are  opposed  to  the  recruiting  of  Mexican  workers  by  private  individuals, 
firms,  or  labor  contractors  except — 

(a)  When  approved  by  the  proper  authority; 

(b)  When  the  need  therefor  has  been  determined  in  accordance  with  the  answer 
to  question  1  above; 

(c)  When  in  accordance  with  the  "Statement  of  Labor  Standards  for  the 
Recruitment  and  Employment  of  Mexican  Workers  in  the  United  States," 
prepared  May  19,  1942,  by  the  conference  called  by  Chairman  Paul  V.  McNutt 
of  the  War  Manpower  Commission; 

(d)  Upon  terms  agreed  to  by  the  Mexican  Government. 

5.  Yes. 

6.  It  would  be  inadvisable  for  the  Government  to  admit  Mexican  workers 
under  conditions  which  have  not  been  agreed  between  the  United  States  and  the 
Mexican  Governments. 

7.  From  reports  that  have  come  to  our  office,  there  seems  to  be  no  doubt  that 
many  Mexican  workers  have  been  antagonized  because  of  the  unfavorable  treat- 
ment they  received. 

8.  The  presence  of  Mexican  labor  in  the  United  States  would  not  be  detri- 
mental to  American  wage  standards  and  welfare  programs  if  the  Government 


put  into  effect  the  recommendations  in  the  "Statement  of  Labor  Standards  for  the 
Recruitment  and  Employment  of  Mexican  Workers  in  the  United  States," 
prepared  May  19,  1942,  by  the  conference  called  by  Chairman  Paul  V.  McNutt 
of  the  War  Manpower  Commission. 

9.  We  believe  that  the  machinery  indicated  in  the  above-mentioned  statement 
would  be  sufficient  to  enforce  the  standards.  However,  a  joint  international 
commission  to  coordinate  the  execution  of  the  responsibilities  entrusted  to  the 
different  agencies  enumerated  in  the  above-mentioned  statement  is  needed. 

10.  No  answer. 

11.  Transportation  expenses  to  this  country  and  the  return  to  Mexico  should 
be  paid  in  accordance  with  the  recommendations  contained  in  the  statement, 
heretofore  mentioned. 

12.  In  fairness  to  the  employers  who  are  to  be  bonded  and  made  responsible 
for  the  fulfillment  of  the  employment  conditions  as  well  as  the  repatriation  of 
Mexican  workers,  these  workers  will  remain  in  the  employ  of  the  bonded  employer, 
in  accordance  with  the  terms  of  the  employment  contract,  unless  the  latter  consents 
to  a  transfer.  The  above-mentioned  statement  contains  appropriate  provisions 
protecting  the  employer  and  employee  and  providing  for  all  contingencies  that 
may  arise. 

13.  A  commission  composed  of  one  representative  of  the  United  States  Govern- 
ment and  one  representative  of  the  Mexican  Government  should  be  established 
as  previously  indicated  to  regulate  recruitment  in  Mexico,  transportation,  and 
allocation  of  Mexican  labor  in  the  United  States,  as  well  as  repatriation. 

Exhibit  E. — Statement  by  W.  J.  Rogers,  Chief,  Division  of  Labor  and 
Rural  Industries,  Office  of  Agricultural  War  Relations,  United 
States  Department  of  Agriculture,  Washington,  D.  C. 

During  the  1941  crop  year  the  Department  received  representations  from 
persons  ostensibly  speaking  for  farmers  and  farmer  organizations  in  Texas, 
Arizona,  and  California,  urging  that  immigration  restrictions  be  relaxed.  These 
representations  were  primarily  in  the  interest  of  cotton  growers  and  were  princi- 
pally for  Mexican  labor.  Thus  far  in  1942  similar  representations  have  been 
received  from  cotton  and  rice  growers  in  the  Southwest  and  from  sugar-beet 
companies  and  growers  in  Idaho,  Montana,  Colorado,  Utah,  and  California. 

Opposition  to  the  importation  of  Mexicans  or  any  labor  from  without  the 
United  States  until  all  other  sources  of  agricultural  labor  have  been  exhausted  has 
been  voiced  by  the  Los  Angeles  Negro  Business  League,  the  National  Spanish 
Speaking  People's  Congress  at  Los  Agneles,  and  a  group  known  as  the  California 
Progressives  of  Los  Angeles. 

A  considerable  number  of  additional  man-hours  are  required  in  the  expanded 
production  program  of  agriculture.  It  is  estimated  that  the  increase  may  amount 
to  142,000,000  man-days.  While  a  part  of  this  increase  can  be  secured  through  a 
better  utilization  of  those  currently  engaged  in  agriculture,  practical  conditions 
indicate  that  additional  workers  will  be  needed. 

The  Department  of  Agriculture  has  been  cooperating  with  the  United  States 
Employment  Service,  the  official  labor  supply  agency,  to  secure  a  rational  distri- 
bution and  use  of  farm  workers.  We  have  consistently  suggested  that  farm 
employers  use  that  Service.  It  is  our  understanding  that  the  Employment 
Service  has  advised  the  Immigration  and  Naturalization  Service  that  6,000 
Mexican  workers  are  needed  for  orders  which  it  is  currently  unable  to  fill.  As 
this  agency  is  apparently  responsible  for  certifying  such  need,  we  would  rely  on 
their  estimate  of  the  situation  since  it  is  also  the  only  Federal  labor  recruiting 
agency  operating  in  the  farm  field.  It  should  be  noted,  however,  that  the  peak  of 
agricultural  employment  will  not  be  reached  until  July  or  later. 

We  had  assumed  that  any  recruiting  of  workers  in  Mexico  would  have  to  be 
satisfactory  to  that  Government  and  that  such  workers  would  be  permitted  to 
enter  this  country  only  when  the  requirements  of  the  Mexican  Government, 
as  well  as  our  own  Government,  were  met. 

While  we  would  not  feel  qualified  to  judge  the  effect  that  bringing  in  Mexicans 
would  have  on  all  welfare  programs,  we  do  feel  that  they  could  be  brought  in 
without  being  detrimental  to  our  wage  standards  if  they  were  limited  to  areas  of 
certified  scarcities  in  this  country  and  limited  as  to  numbers  and  length  of  stay, 
and  if  provisions  were  made  to  pay  them  wages  not  less  than  prevailing  for  our 
own  workers  at  the  time  the  need  was  certified.  Further  assurance  could  prob- 
ably be  derived  from  the  requirements  of  the   Mexcian  Government  and  the 


establishment  of  standards  of  wages,  and  other  working  conditions.  Such 
standards  would  probably  now  be  enforced  by  the  Immigration  and  Naturaliza- 
tion Service,  the  Department  of  Agriculture,  and  the  Department  of  Labor. 
However,  while  we  have  considered  no  mature  plan  as  yet,  it  is  felt  that  a  single 
agency  could  best  administer  this  and  similar  agricultural  labor  operations. 

The  character  of  minimum  standards  which  might  be  set  up  for  the  use  of 
Mexican  workers  would  probably  determine  whether  or  not  United  States  workers 
would  be  induced  to  migrate  to  areas  where  shortages  might  exist. 

It  is  our  understanding  that  the  Mexican  Government  would  probalby  require 
the  payment  of  round-trip  transportation  for  workers  recruited  there.  Due  to  the 
nature  of  this  recruitment  it  would  seem  reasonable  for  he  employer  to  pay  this 
transportation  as  a  part  of  the  agreement. 

At  the  present  time,  regulations  of  the  Immigration  and  Naturalization  Service 
require  a  worker  to  remain  in  the  same  type  of  employment  for  the  same  em- 
ployer unless  there  is  a  certified  need  for  the  worker  with  another  employer  or  in 
another  area.  Due  to  the  nature  of  agricultural  production,  it  would  appear 
that  it  would  be  mutually  advantageous  to  all  parties  concerned  if  workers  were 
allowed  to  move  from  employer  to  employer  and  area  to  area  under  the  control 
and  direction  of  a  proper  governmental  authority.  Under  present  conditions, 
this  would  probably  have  to  be  done  by  a  cooperative  program  of  the  Immi- 
gration and  Naturalization  Service,  the  United  States  Employment  Service,  and 
the  Department  of  Agriculture.  It  probably  could  best  be  handled  through  a 
single  responsible  agency. 

We  are  not  yet  prepared  to  take  a  final  position  on  the  exact  character  of  an  agency 
which  should  be  established  to  supervise  the  recruiting  and  use  of  workers  from 
Mexico.  This  is  only  a  small  phase  of  the  farm  labor  problem.  Other  factors, 
relatively  more  important,  need  the  direction  of  a  single  responsible  agency. 
Machinery  to  handle  the  Mexican  workers  should  be  integrated  with  this  wider 

Exhibit  F. — Statement  by  D.   W.   Tracy,   Assistant  Secretary,   Depart- 
ment of  Labor,  Washington,  D.  C. 

In  the  light  of  the  agreement  which  has  just  been  reached  by  the  various 
agencies  of  the  Government,  including  members  of  your  staff  who  have  been 
studying  this  problem,  I  do  not  believe  it  is  necessary  to  comment  in  detail  on 
the  questions  you  have  raised.     These  are  all  covered  in  the  agreement. 

We  are  in  full  accord  with  the  proposed  standards  of  the  interdepartmental 
committee  and  with  the  procedure  whereby  the  need  for  a  certain  number  of 
laborers  to  be  imported  should  be  certified  by  the  United  States  Employment 
Service  according  to  the  formula  agreed  upon  for  determining  that  a  local  labor 
shortage  exists  which  cannot  be  met  by  bringing  in  nonlocal  domestic  labor. 

Exhibit  2 

Labor  Subcommittee, 
Tehama  County  Land-Use  Committee, 

P.  O.  Box  391, 
Red  Bluff,  Calif.,  June  4,  1942. 
Congressman  John  H.  Tolan, 

Oakland,  Calif. 
Dear  Sir:  The  fruit  harvest  labor  situation  in  this  county  is  desperate  as  it 
must  be  elsewhere  in  California. 

The  Labor  Subcommittee  of  the  Tehama  County  Land-Use  Planning  Com- 
mittee has  been  meeting  every  week  or  two  since  January  in  an  attempt  to  solve 
our  labor  problem.  This  committee  has  made  an  accurate  survey  of  the  total 
needs  by  seasons  and  has  compiled  a  chart  showing  tonnages  to  be  harvested  per 
day,  the  necessary  men  and  women  to  harvest  these  crops,  using  the  minimum 
number  of  men.  A  brief  summary  of  that  chart  is  attached  along  with  estimates 
of  the  supply  of  labor  available.     This  chart  shows  a  shortage  of  400  men. 

This  shortage  of  400  men  means  that  half  of  our  fruit  will  therefore  fall  on  the 
ground  and  go  to  waste  during  the  peak  harvest  periods  unless  labor  is  secured 
from  somewhere  else.  The  only  source  of  additional  labor  that  we  can  see  avail- 
able at  this  time  would  be  Mexicans.     The  committee  investigated  the  possibili- 



ties  of  using  Axis  aliens  but  find  that  since  most  of  our  fruit  area  is  in  zone  1  that 
they  cannot  be  used. 

We  therefore  appeal  to  you  to  do  everything  possible  to  save  this  food  and  to 
prevent  these  fruit  growers  from  going  bankrupt. 

Your  speedy  help  is  urgent  to  get  the  consent  and  action  of  necessary  Federal 
agencies  to  get  this  Mexican  help  here  by  August  1.  We  will  need  it  until  No- 
vember 10.     We  know  this  same  condition  exists  in  other  counties. 

We  want  to  point  out  that  it  is  doubly  important  that  Tehama  County  get 
these  Mexicans  because  we  cannot  use  Axis  aliens.  We  suggest  that  these  aliens 
be  used  outside  of  military  zone  1  and  that  those  farmers  in  zone  1  make  use  of 
the  Mexicans. 

Yours  very  truly, 

Leo  A.  McCoy,  Chairman. 

Exhibit  3. — Cotton  and  Sugar-beet  Prices  and  Wage  Rates 

By  William  J.  Rogers,  Chief,  Division  of  Labor  and  Rural  Industries, 
Office  of  Agricultural  War  Relations,  United  States  Department 
of  Agriculture,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Cotton  prices  per  pound  in  cents 




May  15,  1941 




May  15,  1942 


Cotton-chopping  wages 

(per  acre) 

(per  acre) 

(per  day) 

May  15,  1941 



$1.  00-1.  50 

May  15,  1942 

1. 15-2.  50 

In  view  of  the  fact  that  figures  on  cotton-chopping  wages  were  not  accumulated 
in  an  official  survey  in  1941,  the  wages  for  that  activity  in  1941  are  approximate. 



prices  per 






i  $6.  25 





United  States: 


i  6.  25 





We  are  informed  that  the  marketing  season  for  sugar  beets  extends  for  a  12-month 
period  from  October  to  October.  Accordingly,  the  above  1940  figures  represent 
the  average  price  of  sugar  beets  during  the  12-month  period  from  October  1940  to 
October  1941.  The  above  1941  figures  represent  the  best  available  estimate  of  the 
average  sugar-beet  prices  for  the  marketing  season  extending  from  October 
1941  to  October  1942. 



Sugar-beet  icages 

[ Comparison  of  contract  labor  wage  per  acre  for  1941  and  1942,  based 


on  1932-36  average  yield 

per  acre,  by 



yield  per 


Contract  labor  wage 
per  acre 

Percent  in- 
crease 1942 



over  1941 


7!  03 

2  $23. 47 

2  22.  38 

3  20.  32 

3 18.  73 
2  23. 18 
2  22.  24 

2  $30. 79 

2  27. 76 

3  25. 46 

3  23. 17 
2  28. 84 
2  28. 05 






















1  Preliminary  estimates,  not  for  publication. 

2  Wage  includes  loading  of  beets. 

3  "Old-method"  field. 

We  were  glad  to  have  the  opportunity  of  appearing  before  your  committee  and 
will  be  glad  "to  furnish  you  with  further  information  you  may  desire. 


THURSDAY,  JUNE   11,    1942 

morning  session 

Select  Committee  Investigating 

National  Defense  Migration, 

House  of  Representatives, 

Washington,  D.  C. 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  notice,  at  10  a.  m.,  in  room  313, 
Old  House  Office  Building,  Hon.  John  H.  Tolan,  chairman,  presiding. 

Present:  Representatives  John  H.  Tolan  of  California,  chairman; 
Laurence  F.  Arnold  of  Illinois;  John  J.  Sparkman  of  Alabama;  and 
George  H.  Bender  of  Ohio. 

Also  present:  Dr.  Robert  K.  Lamb,  staff  director  of  the  committee. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

The  first  witness  this  morning  is  Mr.  C.  B.  Baldwin,  Farm  Security 


Mr.  Baldwin,  we  have  asked  you  to  come  here  this  morning  to 
give  the  committee  some  idea  of  the  extent  of  the  problem  of  securing 
transportation  facilities  for  migrant  workers  engaged  in  war  produc- 
tion. In  the  case  of  your  agency,  the  committee  is  particularly 
interested  in  determining  how  large  a  job  it  will  be  to  get  the  migrant 
agricultural  labor  to  areas  where  it  is  needed  to  harvest  the  crops 
required  in  our  war  program. 

We  have  a  few  questions  to  ask  you. 

The  committee  understands  that  the  seventh  directive  of  the  War 
Manpower  Commission  instructs  the  Farm  Security  Administration 
to  improve  its  camp  facilities.  Have  any  steps  been  taken  along  the 
lines  indicated  in  this  proposed  directive? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  a  prepared  statement,  directed 
particularly  to  the  transportation  angle  of  this  problem.  I  would  be 
glad  to  suit  the  convenience  of  the  committee  as  to  whether  or  not 
I  should  read  this  statement,  or  whether  I  should  merely  attempt  as 
best  I  can  to  answer  your  questions. 

The  Chairman.  We  have  found,  in  our  travels  throughout  the 
country,  that  if  we  start  off  anyway  by  asking  questions,  you  can 
then  check  on  your  statement  to  see  if  there  is  anything  in  addition 
that  you  desire  to  bring  out,  Mr.  Baldwin. 

Mr.  Baldwin.  All  right;  then  I  may  submit  the  statement  for  the 
record  at  the  end  of  my  testimony.1 

•  See  p.  12473,  this  volume. 



The  Chairman.  We  handle  these  hearings  in  an  informal  way  and 
sort  of  talk  the  matter  over. 

Mr.  Baldwin.  I  think  your  first  question,  Mr.  Chairman,  related 
to  the  recent  directive  issued  by  the  Manpower  Commission. 

We  have  worked  very  closely  with  representatives  of  the  Man- 
power Commission  since  it  was  created,  in  an  effort  to  assist  in  every 
possible  way  in  obtaining  the  fullest  possible  utilization  of  our  avail- 
able manpower  on  farms.  As  you  gentlemen  know,  we  have  been 
operating  a  migratory  labor  program  for  some  years.  That  migratory 
labor  program  has  three  major  features. 


The  first  is  the  provision  of  camp  facilities  and  somewhat  adequate 
sanitary  facilities  for  migratory  workers  in  those  areas  where  specialty 
crops  are  grown,  and  where  the  need  for  that  type  of  labor  is  greatest. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  migratory  camps  have  you  in  the 

Mr.  Baldwin.  At  the  present  time  we  have  approximately  90 
camps  in  operation.  We  have  in  operation  46  standard  camps 
which  are  more  or  less  permanently  located,  and  43  mobile  camps. 
Six  additional  mobile  camps  will  be  ready  for  occupancy  before' the 
close  of  this  crop  year. 

In  addition  to  the  camps,  we  have  been  in  position  to  make  sub- 
sistence grants  and,  in  some  cases,  limited  grants  for  transportation 
for  individual  workers.  However,  the  transportation  grants  have 
been  very  few  in  number  and  have  been  largely  made  to  enable  fam- 
ilies who  have  no  hope  of  work  to  get  back  to  the  place  from  which 
they  started. 

The  Chairman.  Are  all  these  camps  occupied  at  the  present  time, 
Mr.  Baldwin? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  No,  sir;  they  are  never  all  occupied.  I  do  not 
have  the  figures  on  camp  occupancy  at  the  present  time.  Of  course, 
almost  all  camps  are,  to  a  degree,  seasonal.  We  try  to  provide 
permanent  camps  in  areas  where  work  will  be  available  for  at  least 
6  months  in  the  year,  that  is  generally  the  dividing  line.  We  try 
to  provide  mobile  camps  where  the  working  period  will  be  much 
shorter — 3  weeks,  6  weeks,  or  in  some  cases  2  or  3  months. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  the  occupancy  of  these  camps  has  decreased, 
hasn't  it? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  I  expect  our  total  occupancy  this  year  is  greater 
than  it  has  been  before,  but  that  is  largely  because  we  have  a  larger 
number  of  camps.  In  some  areas  the  occupancy  is  decidedly  down 
because  the  workers  have  been  attracted  to  industry  through  the 
incentive  of  higher  wages  and  for  other  reasons. 

I  mentioned  two  of  our  activities  in  connection  with  migrant 
labor.  The  third,  and  a  very  important  one,  has  been  the  provision 
in  most  areas  of  medical  care  for  migrant  families  through  the  coop- 
eration of  the  State  and  local  medical  associations.  We  generally 
have  had  excellent  cooperation  from  the  medical  profession.  Provid- 
ing medical  care  has  not  only  served  to  alleviate  the  health  difficulties 
of  the  workers,  but  also,  I  think,  has  been  of  value  to  employers  be- 
cause it  has  assured  them  of  more  healthful  workers — people  who  were 
better  able  to  do  a  successful  job. 


The  Chairman.  What  about  migration  in  general,  that  is,  say,  from 
Oklahoma,  Texas,  and  the  Great  Plains  States?  Has  it  increased  or 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Migration,  of  course,  has  decreased.  In  our  judg- 
ment it  will  decrease  much  more  because  of  transportation  difficulties. 
It  has  already  decreased  because  of  transportation  difficulties.  As  a 
result  of  the  rubber  situation  throughout  the  country  and  the  gasoline 
situation  on  the  east  coast  many  workers  who  are  otherwise  available 
will  be  stranded  in  areas  where  there  is  little  or  no  work.  In  other 
areas  workers  will  be  badly  needed  but  will  not  be  available  to  make 
and  harvest  the  crops. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  to  what  extent  and  in  what  areas  will  it  be 
necessary  to  expand  the  camp  facilities  of  the  Farm  Security  Ad- 
ministration to  carry  out  the  instructions  indicated  in  the  proposed 
directive?     There  will  be  considerable  expansion,  will  there  not? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  There  should  be. 

The  Chairman.  Are  you  still  looking  for  the  money? 


Mr.  Baldwin.  We  are  in  the  rather  embarrassing  situation  of 
having  the  Manpower  Commission  directing  us  to  do  something  which 
we  are  without  funds  to  do.  For  the  past  several  years  Congress  has 
allowed  the  Farm  Security  Administration  about  $5,000,000  for  the 
operation  of  existing  camps  and  for  the  construction  of  additional 
camps.  This  year's  estimate  was  considered  by  the  Budget  Bureau 
prior  to  the  outbreak  of  war,  and  was  reduced  to  $3,500,000.  That 
was  submitted  with  the  President's  Budget  message  in  January. 

When  the  agricultural  appropriations  bill  was  under  consideration 
in  the  House,  the  authority  to  operate  camps  was  stricken  from  the 
bill  by  House  action.  It  was  restored  by  the  Senate  Appropriations 
Committee  but  a  limitation  was  placed  on  us  by  which,  if  the  bill 
passes  in  its  present  form,  we  will  not  be  authorized  to  build  additional 
camps,  and  we  will  be  limited  to  $1,400,000  for  the  operation  and 
maintenance  of  the  present  camp  facilities. 

If  something  isn't  done  to  remedy  that  situation,  not  only  will  we 
not  be  able  to  take  care  of  the  additional  camps  which  are  badly 
needed,  but  we  will  have  to  close  approximately  half  the  present 
migratory  camps. 

The  Chairman.  Does  that  include  the  mobile  camps? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  That  will  include  both  the  mobile  and  the  fixed 

Now,  the  Department  took  cognizance  of  this  problem  months  ago 
and  made  a  request  for  an  additional*  appropriation.  The  Bureau  of 
the  Budget  and  the  President  acted  on  that  request  6  weeks  ago,  and 
a  Presidential  Budget  message  was  sent  to  the  Senate  with  the  request 
that  approximately  $8,000,000  be  provided  in  the  agricultural  bill. 

That  request  was  not  favorably  acted  upon  by  the  Senate,  so  we 
find  ourselves  in  a  situation  where  we  have  a  directive  from  the 
Manpower  Commission  and  we  are  unable  to  act  because  of  insufficient 

The  Chairman.  Well,  your  financial  status  at  this  time,  regarding 
migratory  camps,  is  that  unless  you  get  additional  appropriations, 
half  of  them  will  have  to  be  closed? 

60396— 42— pt.  33 5 


Mr.  Baldwin.  That  is  correct. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  while  the  Manpower  Board  has  issued  this 
directive  to  you,  have  they  got  any  funds  of  their  own  to  give  to  you? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  As  far  as  I  know,  they  have  no  funds  for  such 
purpose.  I  assume  that  they  only  have  funds  from  the  President's 
emergency  fund,  for  their  purely  administrative  operations.  They 
have  no  funds,  as  I  understand  it,  for  this  purpose. 


Mr.  Bender.  The  committee  understands  that  the  seventh  direc- 
tive will  instruct  the  Farm  Security  Administration  to  work  more 
closely  with  the  United  States  Employment  Service  in  the  location  of 
additional  camp  facilities.  Does  that  mean  that  the  responsibility  for 
the  selection  of  these  additional  camps,  selecting  their  location,  will  be 
transferred  to  the  Employment  Service? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  No,  sir;  I  don't  think  that  was  the  intention.  We 
have  worked  very  closely  with  the  Employment  Service.  The 
working  relationship  has  been  better  in  some  States  than  it  has  been 
in  others.  In  many  States  we  have  consulted  with  them  about  the 
location  of  our  camps  and  I  think  it  is  the  intention  of  this  directive 
that  this  should  be  done  generally. 

We  have  recently  entered  into  an  arrangement  with  the  Employ- 
ment Service  by  which  they  will  have  representatives  in  all  of  our 
camps.  That  grows  out  of  our  experience  in  the  Northwest,  par- 
ticularly in  the  State  of  Oregon,  where  we  have  had  such  an  arrange- 
ment for  the  last  2  years. 

Mr.  Bender.  In  what  way  does  the  camp  program  of  the  Farm 
Security  Administration  effect  a  fuller  utilization  of  farm  labor? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Last  year  in  the  State  of  Oregon  about  85  percent  of 
all  referrals  of  farm  labor  were  made  from  the  camps.  A  camp  pro- 
vides a  central  location  to  which  all  people  needing  labor  can  come  for 
their  labor  supply.     That  is  one  very  important  consideration. 

Also,  the  camps  are  placed  in  areas  where  the  need  for  labor  is  the 
greatest.  That  results  in  a  concentration  of  labor  in  the  section  where 
the  need  is  greatest.  A  much  fuller  utilization  of  the  available  labor 
can  be  obtained  than  if  the  labor  is  scattered  around  on  ditch  banks  in 
a  much  wider  area. 

Mr.  Bender.  What  demands  has  the  Farm  Security  Administra- 
tion had  from  farmers  for  the  establishment  of  additional  migrant 
facilities  in  various  regions? 

300  additional  localities  requesting  camps 

Mr.  Baldwin.  We  have  received  requests  and  have  confirmed  the 
need  for  camps  in  150  localities  which  are  not  now  served.  This  is  in 
addition  to  the  approximately  100  camps  which  we  will  have,  at  the 
end  of  this  year.  Surveys  have  already  been  made  and  we  are  con- 
fident that  camps  should  be  provided  in  those  localities.  In  addition 
we  have  had  requests  from  150  other  localities  which  we  are  still 
checking.  We  are  perhaps  a  little  optimistic  in  continuing  to  cheek 
in  view  of  the  financial  situation  in  which  we  find  ourselves.  In  all, 
there  are  300  additional  localities  that  are  not  now  being  served  that 
we  have  checked  on  or  that  we  have  had  requests  to  provide  facilities 


for.  Now  that  wouldn't  mean,  of  course,  300  additional  camps, 
because  the  mobile  camps  would  be  moved  to  follow  the  crops. 

Mr.  Bender.  I  am  interested  in  something  that  has  come  to  my 
attention  during  the  last  couple  of  weeks.  In  many  of  the  cities 
school  children,  that  is  junior  high  school  and  high  school  children, 
are  asking  for  opportunities  to  work  on  the  farms,  or  arc  being  asked 
to  work  on  the  farms.  Have  you  any  information  as  to  how  extensive 
that  is? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  I  think  it  has  been  fairly  extensive.  I  expect 
someone  else,  some  of  the  other  witnesses  that  you  will  have  appearing 
before  your  committee,  can  speak  with  greater  competence  on  that 
matter  than  I  can,  since  our  work  has  been  largely  with  the  stream  of 
migrant  workers.  In  some  cases,  I  know  high  school  boys  have  been 
mobilized  for  an  anticipated  need  for  labor,  but  the  need  has  not 
materialized  and,  therefore,  they  have  not  been  used.  That  has  been 
fairly  widespread  in  many  areas.  In  any  event  I  do  not  believe  that 
that  is  the  best  approach  to  the  problem  because  there  are  still 
thousands  and  thousands  of  migratory  agricultural  workers  who  are 
available  if  we  can  get  them  to  the  right  spots. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Baldwin,  is  there  an  inclination  on  the  part  of 
those  wanting  camps  to  desire  that  the  labor  be  there  available  when 
they  want  it,  I  mean  to  a  larger  extent  than  they  might  need  it?  In 
other  words,  do  they  want  a  reservoir  of  labor  to  draw  from  larger 
than  they  might  require? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Mr.  Arnold,  I  think  that  you  generally  find  such  a 
tendency  because  no  person,  whether  he  is  operating  a  factory  or 
operating  a  farm,  wants  to  be  without  labor.  There  is  a  general 
tendency  to  overstate  the  need  for  farm  labor.  That  has  been  our 
experience.  However,  I  would  not  in  any  sense  want  to  indicate  to 
this  committee  that  we  do  not  expect  very  acute  labor  shortages  unless 
something  is  done  to  better  utilize  our  available  supply  of  labor. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Do  any  of  your  mobile  camps  serve  any  of  the 
strawberry  areas? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Yes,  sir.  We  have  some  camps  along  the  eastern 
seaboard  this  year  for  the  first  time,  and  they  have  served  some  of 
the  strawrberry  areas.  Just  how  many  workers  have  been  accommo- 
dated, I  am  not  sure.  I  possibly  could  get  that  information  for  you 
for  the  record. 

Mr.  Arnold.  None  in  the  Middle  West? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Not  as  far  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Arnold.  I  had  a  rather  sad  experience  in  my  district.  The 
W.  P.  A.  apparently  didn't  sense  the  situation  early  enough  to  lay 
off  the  workers  from  projects,  and  they  didn't  respond  to  the  desires 
of  the  strawberry  growers  to  go  to  the  fields  and  pick  berries,  and  as 
a  result  we  had  quite  a  loss  in  the  Centralia,  111.,  area. 

Mr.  Baldwin.  I  don't  think  we  have  operated  any  camps  in  that 

Mr.  Arnold.  Has  any  agreement  been  reached  with  the  Office  of 
Price  Administration  as  regards  the  rationing  of  gasoline  and  tires 
to  insure  adequate  transportation  facilities  for  agricultural  workers? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  I  am  not  sure  that  there  has  been,  although  I  did 
see  a  dispatch  a  day  or  two  ago  to  the  effect  that  O.  P.  A.  had  been 
approached  and  that  something  was  being  done  about  the  problem. 


I  think  there  was  a  release  by  one  of  the  Senators  from  Maryland, 
but  I  am  not  sure  just  what  has  been  done  along  that  line. 


Mr.  Arnold.  The  committee  understands  that  the  proposed 
Eighth  Directive  of  the  War  Manpower  Commission  will  instruct 
the  Farm  Security  Administration,  in  cooperation  with  the  Office  of 
Defense  Transportation,  to  improve  the  facilities  for  the  transporta- 
tion of  migrant  agricultural  workers.  What  do  you  consider  to  be 
the  respective  responsibilities  of  the  two  agencies  in  this  regard? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  The  Farm  Security  Administration  and 

Mr.  Arnold  (interposing).  The  Office  of  Defense  Transportation. 
What  do  you  consider  to  be  the  respective  responsibilities  of  the 
Farm  Security  Administration  and  the  Office  of  Defense  Transporta- 
tion to  improve  the  facilities  for  the  transportation  of  migrant  agri- 
cultural workers? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Of  course,  most  of  the  transportation  has  been  taken 
care  of  by  automobile  and  truck  transportation.  Truck  transporta- 
tion is  a  very  miserable  way  to  move  people,  especially  with  their 
families,  but  a  good  deal  of  it  has  been  done.  The  assumption  is 
that  common  carrier  transportation  Will  have  to  be  used  to  a  much 
greater  extent,  in  particular  rail  transportation,  for  the  long  hauls. 
I  think  the  Farm  Security  Administration,  working  with  the  Farm 
Placement  Service,  would  have  to  determine  the  general  needs  for 
transportation,  and  the  equipment  which  might  be  needed  to  trans- 
port workers  by  rail  or  by  bus.  I  assume  that  it  would  be  our  respon- 
sibility, if  we  had  the  funds  to  do  it,  to  provide  the  financing  by  some 
means,  and  that  it  would  be  the  function  of  the  Office  of  Defense 
Transportation  to  see  that  the  equipment  was  available. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  If  I  may  ask,  what  arrangements  are  being  made 
to  carry  out  the  instructions  of  this  eighth  directive? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Mr.  Sparkman,  are  you  referring  to  the  first  direc- 
tive, now? 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  one  that  Mr.  Arnold  has  just  asked  you  about. 

Dr.  Lamb.  May  I  interrupt  to  say  that  the  War  Manpower  Com- 
mission, as  you  remember,  issued  a  series  of  directives,  of  which  the 
seventh  and  eighth  referred  to  the  Farm  Security  Administration,  and 
this  question  has  reference  to  the  eighth  directive  that  the  Commis- 
sion will  instruct  the  Farm  Security  Administration,  in  cooperation 
with  the  Office  of  Defense  Transportation,  to  improve  the  facilities 
for  the  transportation  of  migrant  agricultural  workers. 

Mr.  Baldwin.  There  have  been  several  meetings  with  Mr.  Alt- 
meyer  at  which  representatives  of  the  Office  of  Defense  Transportation 
were  present.  It  was  clearly  indicated  at  those  meetings  that  the 
Office  of  Defense  Transportation  felt  that  its  responsibility  was  to 
see  that  the  equipment  was  available  and  that  it  would,  of  course, 
look  to  us  on  the  financing  end. 

At  the  present  time  we  have  under  consideration  in  the  Department 
of  Agriculture  an  additional  request  for  funds  for  this  purpose.  If 
that  request  is  acted  upon  favorably,  we  hope  that  it  will  be  sub- 
mitted to  the  Congress  very  shortly.  Of  course,  it  will  be  submitted 
first  to  the  Bureau  of  the  Budget.  It  is  our  intention  to  include  in 
such  a  request  not  only  funds  for  additional  labor  camps,  but  funds 


for  transportation,  and  a  request  also  for  additional  authority  to 
properly  deal  with  this  situation.  We  are  working  very  closely  with 
the  other  agencies  on  such  a  proposal. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  would  be  the  function  of  the  Employment 
Service  in  this  work,  in  connection  with  the  transportation  of  agricul- 
tural workers? 


Mr.  Baldwin.  Insofar  as  our  agency  is  concerned,  we  would  have  to 
rely  almost  entirely  on  the  Farm  Placement  Service  of  the  United 
States  Employment  Service  to  advise  us  of  the  need  for  workers  in  any 
area,  and  also  to  inform  us,  so  that  we  could  advise  the  workers,  as  to 
some  of  the  conditions  of  employment,  such  as  how  long  the  work 
might  last,  what  housing  facilities  were  available,  and  so  forth. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  we  to  understand  that  the  Farm  Placement 
Service  would  establish  a  placement  officer  in  each  one  of  these 

Mr.  Baldwin.  It  is  our  understanding  that  they  would  be  willing 
to  do  that.  I  understand  that  they  have  some  financial  difficulties  in 
that  regard. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  would  be  your  plan  for  working  it  outr 

Mr.  Baldwin.  It  would  be  our  plan  that  the  Farm  Placement 
Service  would  have  an  office  in  each  of  these  camps.  As  I  have 
previously  indicated,  that  has  worked  every  satisfactorily  in  some  of 
the  northwest  areas.  Indications  have  been  that  we  could  get  any- 
where from  25  to  50  percent  fuller  utilization  of  available  labor  by 
the  combination  of  having  proper  camp  facilities  available  and  having 
the  representative  of  the  Employment  Service  available  to  serve  both 
the  farmers  and  the  workers. 


Mr.  Bender.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Baldwin  if 
there  is  any  evidence  that  the  gasoline  and  rubber  shortages  are 
interfering  in  any  way  with  the  "food  for  victory"  program? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  To  just  what  extent  I  am  not  sure.  It  is,  however, 
a  matter  of  very  grave  concern.  One  of  our  representatives  just  came 
back  from  the  trucking  sections  of  North  Carolina  and  Virginia,  and 
he  reported  that  there  was  a  tendency  now  to  reduce  the  acreages  of 
crops  that  are  considered  by  the  Department  to  be  very  essential  to  the 
war  effort.  I  think,  if  we  don't  take  immediate  steps  to  rationalize  this 
labor  situation,  that  that  condition  is  going  fco  become  somewhat  gen- 
eral and  we  will  suffer  rather  drastic  reductions  in  the  production  of 
essential  commodities.  It  is  already  beginning  to  be  felt  and  I  think 
that  it  will  be  felt  to  a  much  greater  extent  as  time  goes  on,  unless 
some  of  these  steps  are  taken. 

Mr.  Bender.  I  would  like  to  ask  you,  incidentally,  what  the  situa- 
tion is  in  connection  with  sugar  rationing.  Has  that  had  any  telling 
effect  on  the  production  of  foods — that  is,  for  canning  purposes,  for 
example;  or  would  that  come  to  your  attention  in  any  way? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Only  indirectly;  but  of  course  there  have  been  special 
rations  allowed  for  canning  purposes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  They  have  been  wholly  inadequate,  have  they  not? 


Mr.  Baldwin.  Yes,  I  understand  they  have  been  almost  wholly- 
inadequate,  and  they  have  only  provided  allowances  for  certain  types 
of  canning.  Of  course,  that  is  related  to  the  whole  sugar-supply 
situation.  As  we  all  know,  the  production  of  both  beet  and  cane 
sugar  requires  a  great  deal  of  migrant  labor;  so  the  labor  problem  is 
going  to  be  a  major  factor  in  determining  our  total  supply  of  sugar. 

Mr.  Bender.  Mr.  Baldwin,  do  you  consider  that  present  methods 
of  recruiting  and  employing  farm  labor  are  wasteful  of  our  human 
resources  and  detrimental  to  the  war  effort? 


Mr.  Baldwin.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  they  have  been  very  haphazard, 
very  incomplete.  I  also  think  we  have  greater  wasted  manpower 
on  small  farms  in  this  country,  due  to  lack  of  financing  and  lack  of 

Next  to  that  I  think  that  our  greatest  source  of  wasted  manpower  is 
with  our  farm  laborers.  I  think  it  is  a  very  great  source  of  wasted 
energy  at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Bender.  This  committee  has  had  men  report  to  it  regarding 
the  difficulties  of  holding  labor  on  farms  because  of  the  opportunity 
for  employment  and  higher  earnings  in  industry,  and  there  have  been 
reports  in  the  press  that  farm  workers  may  be  frozen  in  their  jobs. 
Do  you  think  that  tins  step  is  feasible  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Well,  I  think  this  is  getting  a  little  bit  beyond  my 
competence  as  a  witness.  I  think  it  would  present  very  great  diffi- 
culties. I  would  be  inclined  to  say,  on  the  basis  of  our  experience, 
that  it  would  be  practically  unworkable.  I  also  think  at  this  time  that 
it  would  be  very  unfair  to  the  workers  concerned. 

Mr.  Bender.  Has  ample  consideration  been  given,  by  the  draft 
boards,  for  example,  to  farm  managers,  or  has  there  been  some  abuse 
of  that?  That  is,  say  the  farmer  himself  is  a  young  man — has  he 
been  given  any  extra  consideration  by  virtue  of  his  being  on  that  farm 
and  having  charge  of  that  farm? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Well,  of  course,  the  selective  service  system  is  oper- 
ated on  a  highly  decentralized  basis,  as  I  understand  it,  under  general 
policies  that  emanate  from  Washington.  I  know  that  the  national 
office  has  stated  from  time  to  time  that  special  consideration  should  be 
given  to  farm  labor  and  farm  production,  and  I  think  that  it  has  been 
given,  but  I  think  it  is  inevitable  that  a  great  deal  of  the  youth  will  be 
drained  from  the  farms  for  active  participation  in  the  military  effort. 
I  have  heard  complaints  that  come  from  some  localities — I  am  not  sure 
that  those  complaints  are  general— but  the  complaints  are  about  lack 
of  consideration. 

After  all,  the  draft  boards  have  quotas  that  they  have  to  meet 
and  they  have  to  interpret  these  policies  somewhat  in  terms  of  the 
manpower  that  they  are  expected  to  supply. 

Mr.  Bender.  In  my  part  of  the  country  there  seems  to  be  a  greater 
abundance  of  fruit  this  year  than  there  has  been  in  the  last  4  or  5 
years.  It  is  a  real  problem  that  the  farmer  faces  as  to  the  gathering  of 
that  crop  and  giving  the  fruit  trees  the  proper  care.  I  am  wondering 
if  you  are  conversant  with  that  situation  and  are  taking  some  steps 
towards  handling  it  promptly? 


Mr.  Baldwin.  Our  work  has  been  largely  devoted  to  trying  to 
provide  camp  facilities  in  the  areas  of  greatest  need.  As  you  all  know, 
the  camps  started  on  the  west  coast,  and  we  have  gradually  spread 
them  to  other  areas.  It  is  only  recently  that  the  problem  has  be- 
come so  acute  in  your  section  of  the  country  that  we  have  begun  to 
take  steps  to  meet  it.  I  don't  think  that  a  great  deal  has  been  done 
yet,  but  I  am  sure  that  a  great  deal  can  be  done  tlnough  the  further 
expansion  of  the  camp  program. 

The  Chairman.  I  understand  that  your  problem,  Mr.  Baldwin,  is 
a  financial  one  at  the  present  time,  regarding  the  maintenance  of  these 
migratory  camps? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  your  problem  at  the  present  time,  isn't 
it,  to  get  them  going  and  get  money  enough  to  keep  them  going? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Hasn't  there  been  an  estimate  presented  to  the 
Bureau  of  the  Budget  asking  for  additional  sums? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  There  was  an  estimate  presented  several  months 
ago  which  was  sent  to  the  Senate,  but  as  I  have  indicated,  the  Senate 
has  not  acted  favorably  on  that.  Now  another  estimate  is  under 
consideration  and  I  hope  that  this  will  get  a  better  reception  if  it  is 
submitted  to  the  Congress. 


The  Chairman.  What  other  means  are  there  for  housing  these 
migrant  workers  in  these  agricultural  districts,  other  than  the  migra- 
tory camps?  The  farmers  haven't  any  means,  have  they,  for  housing 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Some  farmers  have  had  some  facilities  although 
generally  they  have  been  very  poor.  The  small  farmer  who  is  raising 
specialty  crops,  or  raising  sugar  beets,  for  example,  has  a  terrific 
problem.  He  has  not  been  able  to  provide  the  needed  facilities;  in 
many  cases  he  has  not  been  able  to  provide  any  facilities.  I  think 
that  there  is  another  thing  that  this  committee  and  the  Congress 
should  bear  in  mind  on  this  whole  problem,  the  fact  that  if  something 
isn't  done  about  tins  it  is  going  to  result  in  a  greater  concentration  of 
farming  operations.  The  larger  operator  is  always  at  an  advantage 
in  dealing  with  situations  like  this  because  his  financial  condition 
generally  is  better  and  he  deals  with  larger  groups  of  workers. 

The  facilities  that  are  available  for  handling  the  migratory  worker 
are  not  adequate  in  any  section  of  the  country  that  I  know  of.  I 
might  add  that  the  facilities  which  are  provided  in  these  mobile  camps 
are  not  very  good;  they  certainly  aren't  very  good  for  family  living. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  is  going  to  happen  to  all  these  people  that 
are  being  thrown  off  their  land  by  the  building  of  war  plants  if  you 
are  no  longer  able  to  relocate  them?  They  can't  find  land  for  them- 
selves; they  can't  very  well  take  to  the  road  because  of  transportation 
shortages.     What  is  your  answer  with  reference  to  them? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Well,  I  am  afraid  that  we  have  no  answer  at  the 
present  time.  As  you  know,  the  Agricultural  appropriations  bill 
which  is  now  in  conference  has  a  provision  which  would  prevent  our 
making  any  loans  or  acquiring  any  land  for  this  purpose  from  funds 


appropriated  in  that  bill,  and  we  are  entirely  dependent  upon  that 
appropriation  for  meeting  such  a  problem.  It  is  quite  a  serious  situ- 
ation and  it  is  growing  more  serious  every  day.  We  have  also  tried 
to  take  care  of  the  situation  insofar  as  possible,  with  loans  and  some 
grants — we  have  tried  to  assist  these  dispossessed  farmers  without 
having  to  make  loans  to  buy  new  farms.  However,  a  very  high  per- 
centage, the  vast  majority,  of  the  farmers  who  are  having  to  leave 
the  land  because  of  expansion  of  war  activities  are  tenants  who  have 
no  equity,  and  most  of  them  will  leave  their  places  penniless.  We 
are  without  proper  resources  to  deal  with  that  situation. 

Mr.  Arnold.  I  have  a  question  I  was  going  to  ask  Mr.  Corson 
when  he  came  to  the  stand,  but  I  thought  perhaps  we  might  have 
your  reaction,  too. 


Will  you  describe  more  fully  the  relation  of  the  Employment  Serv- 
ice to  the  work  of  the  O.  P.  A.  and  the  local  rationing  boards?  The 
other  day  it  was  called  to  our  attention  that  a  State  rationing  adminis- 
tration in  one  State  had  instructed  a  county  administrator  to  prevent 
the  migration  of  labor  away  from  the  area  by  the  rationing  of  gasoline. 
Growers  in  the  area  were  demanding  this  labor,  and  growers  in  other 
areas  were  trying  to  get  hold  of  it.  Is  this  a  problem  for  the  Farm 
Security  Administration  or  the  Employment  Service,  or  for  the  gaso- 
line rationing  boards?  If  the  gasoline  rationing  boards  have  complete 
jurisdiction,  they  can  control  the  movement  and  allocation  of  labor. 

Mr.  Baldwin.  I  don't  see  how  we  can  more  fully  realize  our  labor 
supply,  as  we  are  all  trying  to  do  through  the  rationing  of  gasoline. 
I  hope  that  was  an  isolated  instance.  This  is  the  first  time  that 
anything  of  that  sort  has  been  called  to  my  attention.  Of  course  the 
agricultural  war  boards,  operating  in  the  counties,  have  tried  to  do 
what  they  could  to  help  get  a  better  utilization  of  available  labor, 
but  I  haven't  heard  of  this  approach  before.  I  think  it  would  be  an 
extremely  bad  approach,  Mr.  Arnold. 

Mr.  Arnold.  The  committee  had  word  of  one  such  case  in  a  certain 

Now  you  said,  in  reply  to  a  former  question,  that  undoubtedly 
transportation  of  migrants  would  have  to  be  more  largely  by  railroad. 
How  will  you  get  them  from  your  camps  to  the  fields;  is  there  going  to 
be  a  difficulty  along  that  line? 


Mr.  Baldwin.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  will  be  some  difficulty  hi  some 
areas.  I  do  not  believe,  Mr.  Arnold,  that  the  Federal  Government 
can  take  complete  responsibility  for  providing  all  transportation  for 
migrant  workers.  I  am  quite  sure  the  job  is  too  big  and  I  think  it 
would  be  too  costly  and  perhaps  it  would  be  less  efficiently  handled 
if  we  or  any  other  Federal  agency  attempted  to  do  the  whole  job. 

Mr.  Arnold.  The  farmers  will  have  to  assume  that,  won't  they? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  I  think  the  farmers  themselves,  through  cooperative 
action  and  through  the  efforts  of  the  local  war  boards,  will  have  to 
assume  that  responsibility.  I  would  dislike  very  much  to  see  any 
Federal  agency  asked  to  assume  that  particular  responsibility. 


Mr.  Arnold.  That  is  all  I  have. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  other  day  I  was  down  in  Alabama  and  one 
of  the  Employment  Service  people  told  me  that  they  were  trying  to 
supply  some  labor  for  Connecticut.  Now  that  is  a  pretty  big  jump 
from  Alabama  to  Connecticut,  and  pretty  expensive.  Who  bears  the 
expense  of  that  transportation,  the  worker,  the  employer,  the  Govern- 
ment, or  a  combination  of  those? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  Well,  except  in  a  few  isolated  cases — and  I  don't 
know  of  any  in  the  East — the  Government  has  not  borne  it.  Some- 
times those  arrangements  have  been  made  by  private  labor  contractors. 
Frequently  agreements  were  made  that  the  workers,  when  they  ar- 
rived in  Connecticut,  or  wherever  else  they  were  to  work,  would  pay 
for  transportation  out  of  their  weekly  wages,  or  daily  wages;  it  would 
be  a  set-off  arrangement.  There  have  been  some  cases  in  which  the 
employers  have  provided  transportation,  but  I  think  their  wage  scale 
has  generally  been  adjusted  accordingly. 

So  I  expect  in  most  instances,  in  one  way  or  another,  the  laborer 
had  paid  for  transportation  through  lowering  his  wages  or  through 
an  agreement  that  it  would  be  set  off  against  his  wages  once  he  got 
to  his  new  destination.  That  method  of  handling  is  of  course  ex- 
tremely haphazard,  and  I  think  extremely  costly  to  everyone 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Of  course  you  would  have  no  supervision  over  the 
contract  existing  between  the  employer  and  the  employee? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  would  be  the  Farm  Placement  Service  rather 
than  the  Farm  Security  Administration? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  We  would  have  no  jurisdiction  over  that. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Are  labor  recruiters  as  active  this  year  as  usual,  or 
has  the  rationing  of  gasoline  and  tires  affected  them? 

Mr.  Baldwin.  I  don't  know  that  it  has  affected  them  particularly. 
In  some  areas  they  have  been  very  active.  Now  sugar  production  is 
much  more  concentrated  than  many  other  crops  and  the  sugar  com- 
panies in  some  sections  have  sponsored  recruiting  activities  on  a 
wider  scale  than  ever  before.  I  don't  know  that  labor  recruiting 
has  been  affected  very  much  one  way  or  the  other.  I  don't  think  the 
efforts  in  this  direction  have  met  with  quite  the  success  that  they 
have  in  some  other  years. 

(The  chairman  having  left  the  room,  Mr.  Sparkman  assumed  the 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Baldwin. 

(The  following  statement  was  ordered  printed  in  the  record:) 


Submitted  By  C.  B.  Baldwin,  Administrator,  Farm  Security  Administra- 
tion, United  States  Department  of  Agriculture,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Long  before  the  outbreak  of  war,  which  brought  with  it  a  shortage  of  rubber  for 
civilian  use,  transportation  of  seasonal  farm  labor  in  the  United  States  was  most 

The  methods  employed  had  little  regard  for  the  welfare  and  safety  of  the 
migrants  themselves.  Most  of  them  rattled  periously  over  the  highways  of  the 
Nation  in  their  "jallopies."  Others  were  crowded,  as  cattle  are  seldom  crowded, 
atop  the  uncovered  flatbed  trucks  of  farmers  and  contractors  over  long  hauls 


with  only  one  or  two  stops  en  route.  Some  "hitched"  their  way  from  point  to 
point  dependent  on  passing  motorists'  responses  or  on  the  willingness  of  railway 
guards  to  look  the  other  way  at  harvest  time. 

Transportation  of  seasonal  farm  labor  was  also  unsatisfactory  from  the  stand- 
point of  efficiency.  It  was  shockingly  wasteful.  Probably  none  could  estimate 
accurately  the  gallons  of  gasoline,  the  quarts  of  oil,  and  the  pounds  of  rubber 
that  were  consumed  in  useless  driving  back  and  forth  by  migrants  in  search  of 
rumored  jobs  that  failed  to  materialize.  Formerly,  a  few  gallons  and  a  few  blow- 
outs meant  little  in  terms  of  the  national  economy,  though  the  added  cost  often 
meant  increased  material  deprivations  for  the  disadvantaged  migratory  workers. 

Farm  labor  transportation  was  unsatisfactory  even  from  the  standpoint  of 
many  farm  employers.  It  was  characterized  by  dislocations,  unbalance,  inequal- 
ities. It  was  crude,  chaotic,  costly.  Too  many  workers  assembled  in  areas  in 
response  to  mere  rumors  of  jobs.  Often  they  were  stranded,  lacking  the  few  cents 
to  buy  gasoline  or  a  second-hand  tire  to  carry  them  farther.  In  areas  not  very  far 
away' in  terms  of  auto  travel,  jobs  might  be  going  begging  for  workers.  Thus, 
even  in  the  heyday  of  unrestricted  motor  travel,  migrants  could  not  and  did  not 
distribute  themselves  to  the  best  advantage  of  the  Nation's  agricultural  labor 

Earlier  hearings  of  this  committee,  to  which  the  Farm  Security  Administration 
has  been  privileged  to  contribute,  have  amply  documented  the  fact  that  migrant 
farm  labor  transportation  in  this  country  even  prior  to  December  7,  1941,  left 
much  to  be  desired.  However,  it  worked  somehow  and  many  farm  employers 
secured  itinerant  laborers  who  moved  to  them  mostly  on  their  own  wheels  and  at 
their  own  expense.  As  these  wheels  ceased  to  roll  for  lack  of  tires  or  gasoline, 
it  was  inevitable  that  labor  shortages  would  threaten  many  farms  that  depend  on 
migrant  farm  workers. 

The  seriousness  of  this  situation  may  be  fully  appreciated  when  it  is  recalled 
that  in  such  States  as  California  and  Arizona  more  than  one-half  of  all  farm 
workers  do  not  live  on  the  farms  and  require  daily  transportation  to  and  from 
work.  From  two-thirds  to  three-fourths  of  the  farm  workers  in  these  States  used 
their  own  automobiles  for  transportation  not  only  to  and  from  daily  work  but  also 
from  area  to  area,  from  job  to  job.  The  need  for  farm  labor  transportation  is 
more  or  less  the  same  in  the  Pacific  Northwest,  along  the  Atlantic  seaboard,  in  the 
Mississippi  Valley,  Texas,  and  other  parts  of  the  country  which  employ  a  large 
volume  of  nonlocal  farm  labor. 

The  Farm  Security  Administration  is  administering  its  rural  rehabilitat'on  loan 
funds  so  as  to  enable  hundreds  of  thousands  of  small  farmers  all  over  the 
country  to  increase  their  production.  This  would  enale  them  to  take  to  market 
as  they  never  could  before,  the  foods  and  fibers  needed  by  our  armed  forces  and  by 
the  civilian  population  behind  them  in  the  factories,  mills,  and  mines. 

But  these  small,  low-income  farmers,  whose  economic  security  it  has  been  the 
particular  task  of  Farm  Security  Administration  to  protect  and  improve,  are,  in 
the  main,  not  employers  of  wage  labor.  In  the  past  and  even  today  with  the 
production  increases  Farm  Security  Administration  has  helped  them  to  attain, 
they  and  their  family  members  do  virtually  all  the  work  performed  on  their  farms. 
The  need  to  replace  speedily  the  scores  of  thousands  of  obsolete  private  automobile 
conveyances  which  formerly  provided  the  means  of  transportation  for  a  considera- 
ble number  of  our  seasonal  agricultural  workers  is  not  primarily  a  need  felt  by 
these  small,  low-income  farmers.  It  is  one  which  is  felt  on  the  commercially 
operated  farms  whose  labor  needs  are  supplied  by  hired  workers.  It  is  a  matter 
of  getting  workers  who  want  jobs  to  these  farms  and  of  moving  them  along  to  other 
areas  as  crops  mature  in  seasonal  sequences. 

Farm  Security  Administration  is  no  stranger  to  hundreds  of  thousands  of  migrant 
farm  workers  who  have  followed  the  crops.  During  the  6  years  in  which  Farm 
Security  Administration  has  pioneered  in  decent,  healthful  housing  for  migrant 
farm  workers,  it  has  acquired  a  wealth  of  experience.  This  experience  will  prove 
invaluable  not  only  to  the  Farm  Security  Administration  but  also  to  the  other 
agencies,  the  Farm  Placement  Service  in  the  United  States  Employment  Service, 
the  Office  of  Defense  Transportation,  and  the  Office  of  Price  Administration,  on 
whose  cooperation  we  must  rely  to  provide  a  system  of  farm  labor  transportation 
which  will  do  the  job  during  the  present  war  emergency. 

The  communities  in  which  Farm  Security  Administration  migrant  labor  camps 
have  been  established  have  exhibited,  particularly  during  the  past  year,  an 
overwhelming  approval  of  the  camp  program.  The  existing  camp  program  is 
the  very  foundation  on  which  we  will  have  to  build  an  emergency  system  of  farm 
labor  transportation.     Housing  and  transportation  are  inseparable;  without  one 


the  other  loses  much  of  its  effectiveness.  The  best  system  of  transportation  of 
farm  workers  will  fall  down  deplorably  if  we  lack  sufficient  well-situated,  clean, 
livable  shelters. 

We  have  in  operation  today  46  standard  permanent  camps  and  43  mobile 
camps.  Six  additional  mobile  camps  will  be  ready  for  occupancy  before  the 
close  of  this  crop  year.  For  their  operation  alone  during  the  1943  fiscal  year  we 
shall  need  much  more  funds  than  are  provided  in  the  agriculture  appropriation 
bill  now  in  conference.  In  addition,  we  have  received  requests  for  other  camps 
and  have  confirmed  that  such  need  does  exist  in  about  150  localities  not  now 
served.  An  additional  150  localities  have  submitted  their  bids  for  camps  and 
we  are  now  checking  this  list  to  determine  their  actual  needs. 

Early  examination  of  the  ways  in  which  agricultural  groups  in  various  localities 
of  the  country  have  approached  the  problem  of  farm  labor  transportation  under 
present  difficulties  leads  to  the  conclusion  that  these  problems  can  be  met  effec- 
tively only  by  a  federally  directed  and  financed  program.  There  is  no  substantial 
evidence  that  farmer-employers  are  successfully  meeting  the  labor  transportation 
problem  which  faces  them  now  and  will  trouble  them  increasingly  in  the  future. 
In  fact  the  evidence  is  in  the  opposite  direction.  Effective  group  cooperation 
among  farmers  in  this  connection  has  not  been  demonstrated  save  in  shining,  but  all 
too  isolated,  special  instances.  Where  such  efforts  have  been  attempted,  many 
difficulties  have  arisen  affecting  not  only  farm  laborers  but  also  farm  operators. 

In  some  cases,  for  example,  farmers  were  found  not  to  have  received  the  full 
use  of  the  workers  for  whom  transportation  costs  had  been  paid.  Extreme 
competition  for  labor  has  led  to  "pirating"  of  workers  at  the  point  of  arrival  or 
even  en  route.  Workers  have  been  frequently  required  to  pay  the  costs  of  their 
transportation  in  violation  of  verbal  agreements.  Smaller  operators  have  been 
disadvantaged  in  securing  nonlocal  labor  because  of  their  inability  to  recruit  and 
pav  transportation  costs. 

Farmers  have  expressed  a  need  for  a  Government  agency  to  assume  the  over-all 
responsibility  for  farm  labor  transportation.  Requests  of  this  nature  have  come 
to  us  from  farmers  and  farm  groups  all  over  the  Nation.  Farm  employers  have 
asked  us  to  take  camp  funds  to  pay  for  transportation,  to  take  rural  rehabilita- 
tion loan  funds  to  pay  for  transportation,  to  make  grants  to  employers  or  to 
workers  to  pay  for  transportation.  Sufficient  funds  are  not  available  for  these 

With  the  cooperation  of  other  interested  agencies  and  to  the  extent  that  funds 
can  be  made  available,  the  Farm  Security  Administration  is  ready  to  execute  the 
directive  of  the  War  Manpower  Commission  "to  assure  adequate  transportation 
facilities  to  move  migrant  agricultural  workers."  We  believe  that  the  operation 
of  any  svstem  of  transportation  established  for  farm  workers  in  the  interest  of 
the  agricultural  war  effort  would  have  to  be  shaped  by  the  following  objectives 
and  policies  and  problems. 

First,  two  broad  objectives  should  be  made  clear: 

1.  Insure  necessary  production. — Transportation  should  be  made  available  to 
qualified  farm  labor  when  and  where  necessary  to  provide  labor  for  the  maximum 
possible  harvest  of  food  for  freedom  crops.  Such  transportation  not  only  should 
facilitate  the  harvesting  of  the  already  planted  crops  but  also  should  act  as  a 
stimulus  for  increasing  production  next  year  by  giving  farmers  assurance  that 
whatever  is  planted  on  their  farms  can  be  cultivated  and  harvested  without  the 
loss  of  a  pound  or  a  bushel  because  labor  is  lacking; 

2.  Maximize  use  of  available  labor. — A  transportation  system  should  aim  toward 
the  maximum  utilization  of  available  labor  supply  with  the  minimum  use  of  our 
vital  transportation  facilities.  Obviously,  its  successful  operation  would  neces- 
sitate a  greater  use  of  the  facilities  of  the  Farm  Placement  Service  of  the  United 
States  Emplovment  Service  by  both  employers  and  workers.  Similanly,  its 
efficient  operation  will  require  accurate  current  reporting  of  labor  supply  prob- 
lems and  anticipated  needs  for  nonlocal  labor.  Now,  turning  to  policies  to  be 
applied  in  meeting  specific  problems: 

1.  Determination  of  labor  needs  and  labor  transportation. — The  agency  in  charge 
of  transportation  should  conduct  its  operations  in  close  cooperation  with  the  Farm 
Placement  Service.  Certification  of  labor  shortages  and  requests  for  transporta- 
tion of  workers  to  reduce  or  overcome  such  stringencies,  for  example,  should  be 
made  to  this  agency  by  the  Farm  Placement  Service.  It  would  be  highly  advis- 
able, also,  for  both  the  Farm  Placement  Service  and  the  Farm  Security  Adminis- 
tration to  consult  and  cooperate  with  the  County  and  State  USD  A  war  boards 
before  undertaking  transportation  from  and  into  affected  areas. 


2.  Recruitment  of  ivorkers. — The  agency  responsible  for  farm  labor  transportation 
would  depend  on  the  Farm  Placement  Service  for  information  as  to  workers  avail- 
able who  are  (a)  qualified  to  do  the  kind  of  work  in  question ;  (6)  ready  to  accept 
work  because  their  previous  employment  has  come  to  an  end;  (c)  willing  to  work 
in  a  new  area  for  the  length  of  time,  at  the  wage  rates  and  condition  of  work 
offered  by  the  employers  in  that  area;  and  (d)  who  will  not  be  needed  in  the  area 
from  which  they  are  being  recruited  before  the  completion  of  their  work  in  the 
area  of  destination. 

3.  Worker  safeguards. — Workers  solicited  for  employment  in  areas  to  which 
they  will  be  transported  by  the  farm  labor  transportation  system  should  be  well 
informed  on  wages  and  conditions  of  employment.  No  workers  should  be  trans- 
ported to  any  area  without  first  knowing  (a)  where  he  is  bound  for,  how  he  will 
travel,  and  what  will  be  the  conditions  en  route;  (b)  the  kind  of  crop  operations 
to  be  performed,  tools  to  be  used,  special  local  conditions,  etc. ;  (c)  the  minimum 
and  approximate  duration  of  work;  (d)  what  wage  rates  will  be  paid;  (e)  what 
housing  and  other  living  conditions  will  be  available  on  the  job;  and  (/)  what 
transportation  arrangements  will  be  made  and  what  the  governing  conditions  will 
be  for  return  to  place  of  origin. 

4.  Farm  Security  Administration  camps. — Wherever  possible,  workers  to  be 
transported  should  be  assembled  and  housed  in  Farm  Security  Administration 
camps  both  prior  to  and  following  the  journey. 

5.  Cases  of  acute  need.- — The  agency  responsible  for  the  established  system  of 
transportation  will  be  obliged  to  meet  emergencies  resulting  from  destitution  of 
workers  transported  to  areas  of  destination.  Even  with  appropriate  safeguards 
•concerning  reasonably  full  employment  and  fair  wages,  it  is  conceivable  that  some 
workers  may  lose  their  jobs  or  fail  to  obtain  adequate  employment  in  these  areas. 
While  the  Farm  Security  Administration  has  met  this  situation  in  previous  years 
with  outright  grants  of  money  and  commodities,  it  is  one  which  must  be  definitely 
anticipated  and  for  which  proper  provisions  must  be  made. 

6.  Economies.- — The  cooperation  of  the  Office  of  Defense  Transportation  will 
probably  be  needed  in  obtaining  the  best  possible  routes  and  the  lowest  rates 
for  the  movement  of  workers.  Efforts  should  be  made  to  obtain  benefits  of  large 
scale  economies  through  transportation  of  substantial  numbers  of  workers  at 
any  one  time.  On  long  journeys  transportation  by  rail  should  probably  be 

7.  Transportation  of  families  and  effects. — Rules  and  regulations  will  have  to 
be  established  with  regard  to  payment  of  transportation  for  nonworking  members 
of  families  and  limits  set  to  the  amount  of  household  and  personal  belongings 
which  family  units  will  be  permitted  to  carry  with  them. 

8.  Financing. — The  problem  of  who  should  pay  the  cost  of  transportation  is 
difficult.  It  could  conceivably  be  borne  by  the  employer,  the  employees,  or  by 
the  Government.  We  are  now  confident  that,  in  view  of  the  low  earnings  of 
agricultural  workers,  it  would  be  difficult,  if  not  impossible,  to  solve  this  problem 
were  the  cost  assessed  completely  against  the  workers.  It  might  be  possible 
to  work  out  arrangements  in  some  instances  where  the  employers  would  pay  all 
or  a  part  of  the  transportation  costs.  However,  any  arbitrary  requirement  of 
this  sort  might  act  as  a  barrier  to  the  smaller  farmers  in  getting  sufficient  labor 
for  their  needs  since,  in  most  instances,  they  would  not  be  able  to  meet  such  a 
condition.  As  for  the  workers  themselves,  their  wages  are  still  generally  much 
lower  than  those  of  industrial  workers  and  their  assurance  of  any  continuity  of 
employment  is  so  lacking  that  it  is  felt  that  the  imposition  of  such  an  obligation 
would  discourage  workers  from  accepting  employment  outside  their  immediate 

Certainly,  it  would  not  be  possible  for  the  Government  to  assume  full  responsi- 
bility for  transportation  or  its  cost  for  all  migratory  workers.  The  problem  must 
be  approached  in  a  flexible  manner  and  handled  in  such  a  way  as  to  provide 
sufficient  labor  at  the  points  where  it  is  needed  actually  to  do  the  job. 

However  financed,  it  is  estimated  that  the  amount  of  funds  which  will  be  re- 
quired to  provide  for  assisting  in  the  transportation  of  farm  labor,  including 
medical  care,  health  protection,  subsistence  needs,  administrative  and  supervisory 
expenses  directly  relating  to  this  program,  is  $6,000,000.  This  assumes  a  move- 
ment of  about  150,000  persons,  approximately  110,000  of  whom  would  be  workers, 
each  traveling  an  average  distance  of  1,200  miles  per  year  at  the  rate  of  1.5  cents 
per  mile.  The  total  amount  would  also  provide  for  an  average  grant  of  slightly 
over  $20  during  the  year  for  subsistence  and  other  needs  of  the  workers  transported 
under  such  a  program. 


We  have  watched  closely  the  farm  labor  transportation  situation  ever  since  the 
present  emergency  threatened.  Our  people  in  the  field  are  currently  studying  the 
situation  and  sending  us  much  valuable  information  on  this  emerging  problem. 
As  I  have  stated,  housing  and  transportation  of  migrant  labor  go  together.  For 
this  reason,  we  have  been  in  the  "transportation  picture"  as  well  as  in  the  migrant 
housing  program. 

In  concluding  this  brief  statement,  may  I  state  that  whatever  final  disposition 
is  made  of  the  responsibility  for  planning  and  administering  a  program  of  farm 
labor  transportation,  the  Farm  Security  Administration  will  cooperate  fully  in 
this  enterprise.  We  are  ready  to  place  our  shoulders  to  this  task  in  order  to 
utilize  fully  the  farm  labor  forces  of  this  country  to  assure  ample  production  of 
food  and  fiber  for  the  war  effort. 


Mr.  Sparkman.  Mr.  Corson. 

I  believe  you  have  been  before  us  on  previous  occasions,  and  we 
welcome  you  back  again.1 

We  want  to  ask  you  some  questions  pertaining  to  this  problem  of 
employment,  particularly  with  reference  to  the  transportation  of 
workers.  What  agencies,  Mr.  Corson,  are  responsible  for  insuring 
the  adequate  transportation  of  workers,  both  agricultural  and 

Mr.  Corson.  I  doubt  if  there  are  any  agencies  that  can  be  said  to 
be  responsible  now  for  the  actual  transportation  of  workers.  The 
Office  of  Defense  Transportation  has  been  very  helpful  in  endeavor- 
ing to  work  out  transportation  arrangements  which  facilitate  the 
movement  of  workers,  but  it  does  not  have  any  responsibility,  nor,  I 
believe,  does  any  other  agency  have  the  responsibility  for  the  actual 
transportation  of  workers. 

Now  in  the  supplying  of  labor  for  a  good  many  projects,  workers 
have  been  transported  at  Government  expense,  and  very  helpfully 
so,  in  most  instances  by  the  National  Youth  Administration  and  to 
a  lesser  degree  and  in  a  fewer  instances  by  the  Work  Projects  Ad- 

Mr.  Sparkman.  But  there  is  no  such  thing  as  having  control  by 
these  agencies,  they  function  more  in  a  supervisory  or  advisory 
position,  do  they  not? 

Mr.  Corson.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  there  been  conferences  concerning  an  orderly 
arrangement  for  the  transportation  of  such  workers? 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes;  there  have  been  a  variety  of  conferences,  par- 
ticularly in  relation  to  the  labor  supply  needs  in  particular  areas.  For 
example,  the  one  in  which  we  have  been  particularly  concerned  during 
recent  weeks  is  the  movement  of  migratory  farm  workers  along  the 
eastern  coast.  We  have  been  in  conference  there  with  the  Farm 
Security  Administration  and  the  Office  of  the  Coordinator  of  Defense 
Transportation,  endeavoring  to  work  out  ways  and  means  of  insuring; 
that  migratory  workers  move  as  in  previous  years,  and  thus  provides  a 
supply  of  labor  as  it  has  in  previous  years. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  these  individual  workers  informed  as  to  the. 
arrangements  that  are  made,  or  is  it  more  or  less  of  a  hit-and-miss 
affair  with  them? 

'  Pt.  27,  p.  10286. 


Mr.  Corson.  Well,  we  are  endeavoring  to  inform  them.  The  usual 
facilities  for  transportation,  gasoline  and  rubber,  going  into  the 
customary  means  of  travel  by  automobile,  have  been  so  limited  that 
the  usual  means  of  transportation  are  not  available  as  they  have  been 
in  the  past.  We  have  been  endeavoring  to  work  out,  with  the  assist- 
ance of  the  Office  of  the  Coordinator  of  Defense  Transportation,  special 
railroad  rates  that  would  facilitate  the  movement.  That  isn't  a 
wholly  satisfactory  substitute,  because  there  is  still  the  movement 
from  the  railroad  station  to  the  farm  location,  wherever  that  may  be. 
We  haven't  yet  been  able  to  obtain  such  preferential  rates. 

We  have  moved  relatively  few  workers  by  railroad.  The  bulk  of 
them  have  so  far  moved  by  their  previous  means  of  transportation. 
The  total  number,  as  a  consequence,  however,  has  been  reduced  over 
previous  years. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  A  minute  ago  you  said  N.  Y.  A.,  and  to  a  limited 
extent  the  W.  P.  A.,  have  transported  workers  at  Government  expense. 
Is  that  transportation  charge  recovered  in  any  way,  or  it  it  an  outright 

Mr.  Corson.  I  believe  it  is  an  outright  expenditure,  and  it  is  pri- 
marily related  to  the  movement  of  trainees  to  the  resident  centers 
maintained  by  the  National  Youth  Administration. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  And  the  W.  P.  A.  would  be  something  similar,  I 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes;  and,  as  I  have  said,  much  less. 

(At  this  point  Congressman  Tolan  resumed  the  chair.) 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Have  any  plans  been  arrived  at  dividing  the 
authority,  or  the  field,  in  which  these  various  agencies  would  function 
with  reference  to  trying  to  arrange  an  orderly  transportation  pro- 

possibility  of  movement  of  workers  at  government  expense 

Mr.  Corson.  No;  there  has  not  been,  but  I  think  it  should  be 
borne  in  mind,  as  the  previous  witness  testified,  that  a  large  part  of 
the  transportation  will,  and  I  think  should  be,  borne  continuously  by 
the  employer.  Some,  in  certain  areas  of  the  labor  market,  I  think, 
can  and  should  be  borne  by  the  worker  himself.  There  is  another 
area  that  perhaps  in  the  future  will  have  to  be  borne  by  the  Govern- 
ment. There  are  certain  types  of  labor  that  will  not  be  moved  unless 
the  Government  subsidizes  their  actual  movement. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  wonder  if  you  might  give  us  some  idea  as  to 
what  type  that  is? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  am  inclined  to  think  that  it  is  a  substantial  part  of 
the  migratory  farm  labor  that  will  not  be  moved  in  the  future  because 
farmers  do  not  feel,  rightly  or  wrongly,  that  they  are  able  to  pay 
transportation,  and  the  worker  cannot  pay;  and  if  we  are  to  provide 
the  requisite  food  crops,  I  believe  we  are  going  to  have  to  move 
workers  at  Government  expense  to  where  they  are  needed. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Particularly  would  that  be  true  with  seasonal 
workers,  I  presume? 

Mr.  Corson.  It  would.  Now  it  is  a  very  difficult  task  to  under- 
take, it  requires  a  number  of  safeguards  that  are  not  readily  avail- 
able— the  assurance  that  when  the  worker  is  moved  he  actually  works 
at    the    place    to    which    you    are    moving    him.     And    in    many 


instances  it  necessitates  some  provision  for  his  return  as  well.  We 
move  agricultural  workers  up  the  east  coast  from  Florida  all  the  way 
to  Connecticut,  and  it  is  essential  that  they  go  back  to  Florida  if  they 
are  to  meet  the  need  for  an  agricultural  labor  supply  the  following 
spring  in  Florida. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Would  you  be  willing  to  say  that  if  the  time 
comes  when  it  is  necessary  to  control  our  labor  supply  completely, 
that  then  the  Government  will  have  to  assume  the  transportation 

Mr.  Corson.  If  that  time  comes;  sir,  yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Would  you  venture  a  prediction  as  to  whether  or 
not  such  a  time  is  likely  to  come? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  wouldn't  be  so  bold  as  to  venture  that  prediction. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  It  is  a  possibility? 

Mr.  Corson.  It  is  a  possibility,  although  to  insure  that  I  am  cor- 
rectly understood,  I  hope  that  we  can  devise  ways  and  means  of  so 
managing  our  labor  resources  as  to  permit  their  voluntary  choice  of  a 
job  and  their  voluntary  movement  for  a  long  time,  or  for  the  duration 
of  the  war. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Are  you  pleased  with  the  progress  that  has  been 
made  so  far  in  recruiting  labor  where  it  is  needed  on  a  voluntary 

Mr.  Corson.  Well,  there  are  elements  in  the  picture  at  the  moment 
which  lead  to  some  discouragement.  In  the  industrial  area,  the  factor 
that  is  particularly  discouraging,  that  raises  the  question  as  to  whether 
new  methods  will  not  have  to  be  accepted,  is  the  pirating  of  workers 
from  one  employment  to  another,  and  the  consequent  needless  move- 
ment of  workers  backward  and  forward.  Now  the  worker  actually 
makes  the  choice  when  the  economic  alternatives  are  so  much  greater 
if  he  moves.  And  yet  that  is  coming  to  be  a  considerable  handicap 
to  war  production  in  some  areas,  Detroit  specifically.  That  is  one 
factor  that  may  necessitate  a  type  of  control  over  workers'  movements 
that  is  not  now  existent. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  What  do  you  consider  to  be  the  function  of  the 
United  States  Employment  Service  in  the  transportation  of  war 


Mr.  Corson.  Well,  first  I  would  say  that  it  is  the  responsibility  of 
the  United  States  Employment  Service,  to  a  greater  degree  than  the 
Employment  Service  has  ever  had  to  assume  that  responsibility  in  the 
past,  to  seek  out  orders  from  employers  for  the  workers  they  need; 
then,  to  obtain  from  the  employers  specifications  as  to  the  type  of 
workers  required,  including  whether  or  not  they  are  willing  and  able 
to  pay  transportation  of  workers  to  be  brought  in  from  other  areas. 

Our  second  responsibility  would  be  to  communicate  to  available 
workers,  in  other  areas  usually,  the  opportunities  that  are  existent. 
I  think  that  much  migration  and  much  movement  can  be  eliminated 
if  we  can  communicate  more  effectively  to  workers  than  we  have  in 
the  past,  the  opportunities  that  do  exist,  along  with  the  conditions  of 
employment,  including  particularly  when  transportation  costs  are  to 
be  met  by  the  employer. 


In  addition,  I  think  the  Employment  Service  has  a  third  responsi- 
bility in  collaboration  with  the  other  agencies  that  are  more  directly 
related  to  the  transportation  field,  of  trying  to  work  out  ways  and 
means  of  getting  special  consideration  for  the  movement  of  workers, 
particularly  where  there  is  a  large  group  of  workers  to  be  moved,  like 
the  migratory  agricultural  workers. 

We  have  already  taken  some  steps  to  endeavor  to  get  other  agencies 
to  facilitate  that  movement— to  obtain  preferential  railroad  rates 
through  the  Office  of  the  Coordinator  of  Defense  Transportation;  and 
to  have  the  Farm  Security  Administration  relate  their  mobile  labor 
camps  to  the  movement  of  these  workers;  and  the  use  of  railroads,  if 
they  are  to  be  used,  rather  than  automobiles. 

I  don't  think  the  United  States  Employment  Service  has  a  responsi- 
bility for  the  actual  payment  of  transportation  costs  itself.  It  seems 
to  me  of  first  importance  that  the  employer  should  pay  these  costs,  if 
it  is  possible;  and  that,  secondarily,  the  other  agencies  of  the  Govern- 
ment that  are  more  familiar  with  the  movement  of  workers  in  the 
transportation  area  should  assume  the  responsibility  for  the  actual 
shipping  of  workers.  .  . 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Do  you  exercise  any  control  or  supervision  over  the 
contracts  that  are  entered  into  between  the  employer  and  the  em- 
ployee with  reference  either  to  wages  or  to  transportation  charges? 

Mr.  Corson.  No,  we  cannot  determine  the  conditions  of  employ- 
ment. Manifestly,  when  an  employment  office  has  orders  from  two 
employers,  one  employer  offering,  let  us  say  for  the  sake  of  illustration, 
reasonable  standards  of  employment  in  terms  of  hours  of  work,  wages 
and  living  conditions;  and  another  offering  substandard,  or  at  least, 
less  desirable  standards  of  employment,  manifestly  it  is  much  easier 
to  obtain  workers  to  accept  the  first  opportunity,  and  those  are  the 
ones  on  which  efforts  are  devoted.  We  can  refuse  to  fill  or  to  assist 
an  employer  in  filling  jobs  at  substandard  conditions,  and  that  we  do. 
We  cannot  choose  between  those  that  are  above  a  level  of  what  might 
be  described  as  substandard  conditions  within  the  area. 


Mr.  Sparkman.  We  learned  some  time  back,  in  the  early  part  of 
our  hearings,  that  the  eastern  seaboard  drew  a  great  part  of  its  agri- 
cultural workers  for  its  seasonal  crops,  from  the  Southeastern  States. 
Now  we  understand  that  those  workers  are  pretty  well  immobilized 
this  year  because  of  lack  of  transportation  facilities,  and  at  the  same 
time  reports  come  to  us  of  crop  losses  to  a  severe  degree  in  the  Atlantic 
seaboard  area  because  of  a  shortage  of  seasonal  agricultural  workeis. 
Has  the  Employment  Service  made  any  effort  to  remedy  that  situation 

Mr.  Corson.  Well,  the  Employment  Service  has  been  continually 
working  on  that  problem  for  the  last  3  or  4  months.  There  are  several 
points  that  you  have  made  that  I  would  like  to  comment  on. 

In  the  first  place,  it  is  true  that  the  customary  supply  of  labor  that 
moves  along  the  east  coast  from  Florida,  through  South  Carolina, 
North  Carolina,  Virginia  and  on  up  to  meet  the  agricultural  labor 
needs,  is  immobilized,  to  a  degree,  in  comparison  with  previous  years. 
There  is  still  a  material  movement  of  workers  along  the  east  coast  by 
their  customary  means  of  travel.  That  is,  to  me,  somewhat  surprising, 
and  yet  there  has  been,  insofar  as  the  agricultural  labor  needs  in  South 


Carolina  and  North  Carolina  arc  concerned  so  far,  some  movement 
from  Florida  on  up  through  those  States. 

In  addition,  to  supplement  our  Farm  Placement  Service,  we  have 
placed  in  Florida  three  additional  men  whose  whole  job  it  is  to  contact 
those  workers  that  customarily  move  out  from  where  they  are  working 
now  in  the  northern  areas  of  Florida,  and  to  make  available  to  them 
the  job  opportunities  that  the  Employment  Service  has  been  able  to 
locate,  and  to  facilitate  their  movement  along  the  coast.  We  con- 
template that  those  men  will  stay  with  that  group  of  workers  for  the 
whole  season  until  it  has  traversed  the  whole  area  through  which  it 
customarily  travels. 

We  have  as  well,  as  I  have  referred  to  before,  endeavored  to  obtain, 
with  the  cooperation  of  the  Office  of  the  Coordinator  of  Defense 
Transportation,  special  railroad  rates  to  move  them.  It  hasn't  been 
accomplished  as  yet,  but  we  still  hope  that  we  can,  with  preferential 
railroad  rates,  facilitate  their  movement  along  the  east  coast.  We  are 
even  now  bringing  together  our  Farm  Placement  people  from  those 
States  with  a  view  to  insuring  that  we  mobilize  a  diminished  labor 
supply  so  far  as  we  can.  That  it  is  a  substantially  diminished  labor 
supply  is  a  factor  that  should  not  be  overlooked.  We  are  making 
those  workers  that  do  exist  available  where  they  are  needed. 


Now  in  Florida  and  in  other  States  along  the  east  coast,  much  of 
the  migrant  labor  supply  that  is  usually  counted  upon  has  been  drawn 
off  into  the  construction  of  cantonments  and  other  war  projects  that 
did  not  exist  in  previous  years.  As  a  consequence,  there  aren't  as 
large  a  number  to  shepherd  along  the  east  coast  as  there  have  been  in 
previous  years.  That  makes,  it  seems  to  me,  all  the  more  important 
the  intensive  use  of  the  local  labor  supplies.  Recruiting  around 
Norfolk,  for  instance,  all  of  the  people  that  can  possibly  be  found 
around  Norfolk  that  can  be  used  on  the  farm  for  the  season  there; 
school  children  to  the  degree  that  they  can  work  on  farms;  women 
who  have  not  customarily  been  employed  in  the  past  on  farms. 
Those  supplies  perhaps  haven't  been  customary  ones,  but  this  year 
they  will  have  to  be  used  if  we  are  to  meet  the  aggregate  need  for 
farm  workers. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Wouldn't  you  say  that  these  two  problems,  the  problem 
of  distinguishing  the  available  supply  and  the  problem  of  transporta- 
tion, are  so  interconnected  that  it  is  a  little  difficult  to  tell  where  the 
one  begins  and  the  other  leaves  off?  If  you  have  ready  transporta- 
tion and  a  surplus  such  as  we  have  had  in  past  years,  the  problem  of 
discovering  where  these  workers  are  is  hardly  any  problem  at  all,  as 
far  as  your  office  is  concerned.  The  bulk  of  the  orders  for  these  work- 
ers doesn't  come  through  the  office  in  peace  times,  in  normal  times. 
They  are  a  matter  of  arrangement  between  a  boss  or  a  contractor  and 
the  individual  employer,  or  a  group  in  some  places,  and  consequently 
a  whole  new  burden  has  fallen  on  your  organization — first  to  deter- 
mine exactly  where  these  supplies  are.  and  whether  they  are  immobil- 
ized; and  then  to  collaborate  with  other  agencies  to  mobilize  them  by 

Mr.  Corson.  Well,  may  I  comment  on  two  points  there.  There 
is  still  another  factor.     I  heartily  agree  with  you,  the  two  problems 

60396— 42— pt.  33 6 


are  inseparable.  But  there  is  a  third  that  is  likewise  a  part  of  the 
picture,  and  that  is  the  problem  of  discrimination  against  certain  types 
of  workers  and  discrimination  on  the  part  of  workers  against  certain 
types  of  work. 

For  instance,  there  are  available  supplies  of  labor  in  the  far  West 
and  in  the  Southwest,  but  there  are  many  individuals  among  them 
who  will  not  take  jobs  in  beet  sugar  and  stoop  labor.  That  is  a  part 
of  the  problem. 

The  other  is  that  it  is  true  that  there  is  a  burden  thrown  on  the 
Employment  Service  this  year  that  it  never  assumed  in  the  past, 
because  in  the  past  there  were  labor  contractors  who  facilitated  the 
movement  and  the  recruiting  of  these  workers  on  a  commercial  basis 
for  farmers.  Those  individuals  are,  to  some  extent,  reduced  in  number 
by  the  lack  of  transportation  facilities.  In  other  areas,  however,  they 
are  even  more  active  than  in  the  past,  and  that  makes  it  difficult  for 
the  Employment  Service  to  know  what  supplies  of  labor  there  are, 
because  the  labor  agent  has  come  in  and  drained  off  a  supply  of 
labor,  and  the  employment  office  is  unable  to  ascertain  how  many 
are  left,  now  knowing  how  many  the  labor  agent  has  taken  out.  That 
adds  to  the  complexity  of  the  problem  as  well. 

Dr.  Lamb.  What  this  means,  in  effect,  is  that  you  people  have  to 
invent  and  pioneer  new  methods  of  determining  the  available  labor 
supplies,  methods  which  are  much  more  intensive  than  you  have 
previously  had  to  use? 


Mr.  Corson.  That  is  correct,  and  as  well  to  invent  new  means  of 
obtaining  indication,  in  advance,  of  the  labor  demand.  The  employer 
has  in  the  past  had  a  surplus  of  labor,  and  as  a  consequence  there  was 
no  necessity  for  him  to  worry  about  the  Employment  Service,  he  could 
go  to  the  village  store  or  to  his  front  gate  and  there  were  plenty  of 
workers  there  to  be  had.  Now  that  isn't  the  case.  Hence,  he  turns 
to  the  Employment  Service,  or  some  other  means.  All  too  frequently 
he  waits  until  the  last  moment  and  turns  to  the  Employment  Service 
and  says,  "Because  you  aren't  supplying  labor,  our  crops  are  going 
to  rot  in  the  fields." 

Dr.  Lamb.  In  fact,  he  has  to  be  taught  to  turn  to  the  Employment 
Service,  and  turn  to  it  early? 

Mr.  Corson.  Well,  I  would  add  that  the  Employment  Service  has 
to  accept  the  responsibility  to  a  greater  degree  than  before  of  bringing 
its  services  to  the  employer,  since  he  hasn't  been  familiar  with  its 
work;  and,  as  I  said  before,  seeking  out  orders  in  advance  of  the 

Dr.  Lamb.  There  is  one  more  question  I  have  in  this  connection. 
That  is  whether — because  of  the  fortunate  situation  in  which  these 
employers  found  themselves  in  the  past  with  a  labor  surplus  and  the 
ready  transportation  provided  by  labor  contractors  or  by  the  workers 
themselves — the  usual  wage  rates  and  the  conditions  of  employment 
have  lacked  pulling  power  this  year  and  during  these  war  years? 

Mr.  Corson.  Even  though  farm  rates  this  year  to  some  extent  have 
increased  over  previous  years,  in  contrast  with  wage  rates  on  construc- 
tion projects  and  other  war  production  work,  they  represent  an  un- 
favorable contrast  and  they  do  not  have  the  pulling  power  that  would 


bring  workers  into  agriculture.  That  is  true  even  in  an  area  like  Los 
Angeles,  where  you  have  still,  despite  the  large  employment  there, 
some  unemployment,  unemployment  which  can't  be  drained  off  to 
farms  because  of  the  differential  in  wage  rates. 


The  Chairman.  Mr.  Corson,  the  transportation  by  private  con- 
tractors of  migrant  workers  from  Texas  into  Michigan,  and  the  North 
Central  States,  was  done  by  automobile.  Do  you  think  that  these 
private  contractors,  on  account  of  the  shortage  of  rubber,  will  be  able 
to  continue  to  transport  the  migrant  worker  from  the  South? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  am  not  sure  that  I  am  using  the  term  "private 
contractors"  in  exactly  the  same  way  you  are,  but  to  the  extent  that 
private  contractors  have  relied  upon  truck  transportation  in  the  past, 
their  activities  will  be  curtailed.  However,  some  private  contractors, 
in  a  sense  the  agents  for  some  companies — particularly  the  beet-sugar 
companies — who  have  relied  more  on  railroads  in  the  past,  have  in- 
tensified their  activities  this  year  by  reason  of  the  apparent  shortage 
of  workers  in  relation  to  the  demand.  The  demand  for  workers  in 
beet-sugar  fields  is  much  greater  this  year  than  in  previous  years. 
Hence,  their  activities,  in  contrast,  have  been  far  greater  this  year 
than  in  previous  years.  They  haven't  been  handicapped  by  a  lack 
of  rubber,  because  they  have  customarily  used  railroads,  and  special 
rates  on  railroads,  to  move  workers. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  think  the  private  contractors  should  be 

Mr.  Corson.  Their  elimination  would  certainly  make  for  a  more 
orderly  management  of  what  labor  resources  we  have.  It  has  been 
particularly  difficult  this  year  for  the  Employment  Service  to  mobilize 
what  labor  there  is  and  facilitate  its  movement  to  where  it  was  needed, 
because  of  the  competitive  situation  we  were  in.  At  the  same  time 
we  were  seeking  labor,  we  had  the  labor  agent  of  the  beet-sugar 
companies,  particularly,  working  in  the  same  area,  offering  induce- 
ments with  respect  to  transportation  that  smaller  farmers,  perhaps  in 
other  crops,  couldn't  offer.  And  as  a  consequence  it  created  a  rather 
chaotic  condition  in  the  States  of  Texas  and  New  Mexico,  with  respect 
to  the  movement  of  migratory  labor  out  of  those  States. 


The  Chairman.  Do  you  think  the  railroads  will  be  able  to  take 
over  this  additional  load? 

Mr.  Corson.  Well,  from  what  I  .have  been  able  to  learn  in  our 
contacts  with  the  railroads  and  with  the  Coordinator  of  Defense 
Transportation,  who  has  been  very  helpful  in  trying  to  work  out  ways 
and  means  of  insuring  movement  of  this  labor,  the  railroads  would 
have  no  difficulty  in  assuming  this  burden.  It  isn't  large  in  aggre- 
gate, there  may  be  perhaps  50,000  workers  that,  if  moved,  would 
meet  the  demands,  if  you  effectively  utilize  as  well  your  local  labor 
supply.  It  is  surprising  when  you  think  that  whereas  actually  there 
may  be  30,000  workers  needed  in  New  Jersey,  there  may  not  be  the 
necessity  of  moving  more  than  5,000  to  10,000,  at  the  most,  from 
Florida.  If  you  utilize  the  local  labor  supply  first,  the  supplement  that 
you  need  is  relatively  small. 


The  Chairman.  Has  the  Employment  Service  made  any  contact 
with  the  railroad  companies  regarding  rates  for  these  migrant  workers? 

Mr.  Corson.  Well,  the  answer  to  that  question  is  "no,"  but  it  is 
not  a  fair  answer  to  the  Employment  Service  because  Mr.  Otto  Beyer, 
who  is  in  charge  of  the  Division  of  Transport  Personnel  in  the  Office 
of  the  Coordinator  of  Defense  Transportation,  has  been  in  contact 
with  the  railroads  daily  for  the  last  2  weeks,  at  our  request,  and 
presenting  this  picture  to  them. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Do  you  find  any  State  laws  interfering  with  arrange- 
ments by  the  Government  for  the  transportation  of  war  workers? 

Mr.  Corson.  No;  I  have  not.  There  may  be  some,  but  I  am  not 
familiar  with  them  at  the  moment. 


Mr.  Arnold.  Do  you  find  that  the  competition  among  Stetes  or 
regions  for  the  available  supply  of  agricultural  workers  is  interfering 
with  the  interstate  clearance  by  the  Employment  Service? 

Mr.  Corson.  It  has  to  some  extent.  That  has  been  particularly 
true  in  Texas,  and  it  is  a  very  natural  situation.  Employers  who 
have  been  accustomed  to  relying  upon  an  available  supply  of  labor 
are  very  loathe  to  see  it  drained  off  into  other  areas,  even  though,  by 
the  more  effective  utilization  of  the  remainder  m  that  State,  their 
needs  may  be  met.  It  is  a  very  human  and  natural  situation,  and  it 
is  one  that  has  to  be  faced. 

Mr.  Arnold.  The  committee  has  heard  that  the  farmers  in  New 
Jersey  were  compelled  to  recruit  some  laborers  from  south  Florida 
by  their  own  arrangements  because  the  clearance  and  referral  pro- 
cedure of  the  Employment  Service  was  too  slow  to  meet  their  needs. 
Have  you  eny  comments  to  make  on  that,  sir? 

Mr.' Corson.  I  think  that  the  situation  could  be  described  more 
accurately  by  stating  that  the  farmers  in  New  Jersey  used  the  Employ- 
ment Service  to  a  minimum  degree.  They  went  to  Florida  to 
obtain  workers  without  regard  to  the  existence  of  an  Employment 
Service.  I  doubt  whether  they  gave  the  clearance  system  of  the 
Employment  Service  a  sufficient  trial  to  justify  the  statement  that 
it  was  too  slow  or  cumbersome.  Actually,  the  Employment  Service 
did  bring  into  New  Jersey  a  considerable  number  of  workers,  approxi- 
mately 200  workers,  from  New  York  City,  and  that  represented,  I 
think  it  can  be  said,  the  difference  between  substantial  failures  in  the 
asparagus  crop  and  a  harvesting  of  the  bulk  of  the  crop. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Then  they  probably  weren't  familiar  enough  with 
your  service  to  properly  utilize  it? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  think  that  is  true,  and  I  think  the  obligation  for 
insuring  that  they  are  familiar  with  it  is  on  both  sides.  It  is  in  part 
that  the  employer  should  make  use  of  the  service,  but  in  part  the 
Employment  Service  has  got  to  make  known  its  existence  to  the 

Mr.  Arnold.  Now  the  Texas  Emplo3Tment  Service  is  under  your 
jurisdiction,  is  it? 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Arnold.  The  committee  has  been  given  to  understand  that 
that  employment  service  has  never  referred  any  workers  to  other 
States.     Would  you  sav  that  that  is  substantially  correct? 


Mr.  Corson.  I  think  it  is  substantially  correct.  It  has  referred 
some  workers,  and  it  has  referred  some  workers  because  we  have 
simply  insisted  that  workers  be  moved  out  of  there  when  there  seemed 
to  be'  an  apparent  surplus.  But  there  are  two  other  factors  that 
should  be  considered.  In  the  first  place,  Texas  was  the  particular, 
perhaps,  if  I  may  say  so,  happy  hunting;  ground  for  the  recruiting 
agents  of  the  beet  sugar  companies,  and  they  went  in  there  and 
took  out  a  great  number  of  workers.  As  a  consequence,  not  only 
the  Employment  Service  in  Texas,  but  the  farmers  in  Texas  and  the 
Texas  State  government,  were  very  much  alarmed  that  so  many 
workers  had  been  moved  out  of  the  State  that  there  would  not  be 
an  adequate  supply  of  workers  for  the  needs  of  Texas  farms.  I 
think  the  fact  that  there  was  some  substance  for  their  fears  is  testified 
to  now  by  the  fact  that  there  is  at  least  a  very  narrow  margin  in  the 
available  supply  of  labor  for  the  cotton  crop  in  the  southern  and 
western  areas  of  Texas;  hence  another  demand  for  the  importation 
of  Mexican  workers. 


Mr.  Sparkman.  Has  the  federalization  of  the  Employment  Service 
served  to  reduce  to  any  appreciable  degree  the  need  of  private  re- 
cruiting arrangements  by  these  employers? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  think  the  national  operation  of  the  Employment 
Service  has  facilitated  the  movement  of  workers  from  one  area  to 
another,  and  that  is  one  thing  that  the  United  States  Employment 
Service  can  do  that  few  private  employment  recruiting  agencies  can 
do.  They  aren't  Nationwide  in  scope,  and  they  can't  move  workers 
from  one  area  to  another.  The  Employment  Service  has  moved  a 
very  considerable  number  of  workers,  from  one  section  to  another 
as  the  needs  dictated. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  You  still  have  the  problem,  though,  of  getting  the 
employers  into  the  habit  of  using  the  Employment  Service? 

Mr.  Corson.  That  is  correct,  and  I  think  there  are  bases  for  that. 
The  Employment  Service  in  some  States  in  the  past  was  not  the  type 
of  an  institution  that  attracted  employers  to  use  it,  and  you  can't 
change  48  different  State  employment  services  in  a  few  months  to 
an  altogether  efficient  national  institution.  There  is  not  only  the 
necessity  of  raising  the  caliber  of  operations  in  those  sections  and  in 
those  States  where  they  were  below  the  level  in  other  States,  but 
as  well  the  changing  of  the  attitudes  of  people  who  have  been 
accustomed  to  working  within  their  areas  and  subject  to  State  super- 
vision and  subject  to  the  State  jealousies  and  State  prides  that  dic- 
tated that  labor  should  be  used  in  this  State  without  regard  to  the 
needs  of  another  State.  It  is  an  attitude  of  mind  that  has  prevailed 
as  well  as  a  method  of  operation.     It  takes  time  to  combat  that. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  I  suppose  as  labor  conditions  become  tighter,  the 
employers  turn  more  and  more  to  the  Employment  Service? 

Mr.  Corson.  That  is  correct.  As  soon  as  it  gets  tough  to  find 
workers,  then  it  is  up  to  the  Employment  Service  to  find  them. 



Mr.  Sparkman.  We  understand  that  the  Employment  Service  has 
certified  the  need  for  the  importation  of  a  certain  number  of  workers 
from  Mexico  because  it  does  not  have  the  facilities  for  recruiting 
these  workers  within  the  United  States.     Is  this  correct? 

Mr.  Corson.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  a  relatively  small  number  so  far,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes;  I  think  the  total  is  6,000. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  is  for  seasonal  crops  in  California? 

Mr.  Corson.  Particularly  for  beet  sugar. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Beet  sugar? 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes;  and  saying  that  it  is  for  beet  sugar  gives  some 
explanation  for  the  necessity  of  importation  there.  Beet  sugar,  the 
blocking  and  thinning  of  beet  sugar,  described  as  stoop  labor,  is  a 
type  of  labor  which  has  been  accompanied  by  a  type  of  living  con- 
ditions on  farms  which  has  been  such  that  it  does  not  attract  many 
American  workers. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Well,  that  is  the  type  of  work  that  the  Governor  of 
Idaho  and  his  staff  are  doing  out  there.  How  are  they  doing  stoop 

Mr.  Corson.  I  don't  think  the  Governor  and  his  staff  are  going 
to  do  it  for  long,  if  they  are  doing  it. 

The  Chairman.  When  you  certified  the  need  for  the  importation 
of  Mexican  workers,  did  they  actually  come  into  this  country? 

Mr.  Corson.  They  have  not  yet. 

The  Chairman.  To  whom  did  you  certify  that? 

Mr.  Corson.  To  the  Immigration  Division  of  the  Department  of 
Justice.  The  Immigration  Division  must  actually  arrange  for 
bringing  the  workers  in  from  Mexico.  I  am  advised  that  the  State 
Department  has  instructed  the  Ambassador  in  Mexico  City  to 
negotiate  with  the  Mexican  Government  for  the  movement,  and  the 
standards  under  which  they  will  be  moved.  That  step  was  taken, 
I  believe,  about  10  days  ago.  The  negotiations  between  the  Ambas- 
sador in  Mexico  and  the  Mexican  Government  have  not  been  reported 
back  as  yet. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  the  reason  why  no  action  was  taken,  be- 
cause the  nations  being  at  war,  there  was  really  a  higher  question  than 
the  demand,  say,  for  10,000  Mexican  workers  in  California  and  in 
Texas,  there  was  a  higher  question  there. 

This  committee  already  has  taken  it  up  with  representatives  of  the 
State  Department  and  the  Mexican  Government,  and  I  think  you 
stated  very,  very  well  the  status  of  it.  That  is  the  status  of  it  right 
now.  In  other  words,  there  will  have  to  be  a  clearance  through  the 
State  Department  of  this  country  with  the  Mexican  Government 
before  anything  is  done? 

Mr.  Corson.  That  is  correct. 

The  Chairman.  To  state  how  many  come  in  and  under  what  terms 
and  under  what  regulations  they  come  into  this  country.  Is  that 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  If  a  Government  agency  undertakes  to  transport 
war  workers,  what  changes  will  be  necessary  in  the  operation  of  the 
Employment  Service,   if  any? 


Mr.  Corson.  Very  minor,  if  any.  If  a  Government  agency  under- 
takes to  transport  war  workers,  it  would  seem  to  me  that  it  would 
facilitate  our  recruitment  to  the  extent  that  in  offering  workers  jobs, 
we  would  have  that  much  greater  likelihood  of  their  acceptance  of  jobs, 

The  Employment  Service  might  be  responsible,  as  well,  for  actually 
placing  in  their  hands  the  Government  transportation  request,  and 
to  the  extent  that  we  had  to  set  up  the  machinery  for  bonding  our 
own  employees  for  the  issuance  of  Government  transportation  requests 
and  actually  seeing  that  the  transportation  request  was  issued  to  the 
worker,  that  would  represent  some  minor  modification  in  our  processes 
and  in  our  organization,  but  it  wouldn't  seem  to  be  a  great  one. 


Mr.  Sparkman.  In  some  of  our  hearings,  our  attention  has  been 
called  to  the  fact  that  a  great  deal  of  this  so-called  farm-labor  shortage 
was  the  result  of  the  failure  to  utilize  to  its  fullest  capacity  the  available 
farm  labor.  Now  what  has  the  Farm  Placement  Service  done  toward 
bring  about  a  full  utilization  of  the  farm  labor  already  available? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  don't  believe  that  I  know  of  illustrations  in  which 
the  farm-labor  shortage  has  been  due  to  a  failure  to  use  the  available 
farm  labor  supply.  I  think  there  is  perhaps  one  illustration  that 
comes  to  mind  in  which  it  was  a  question  of  the  willingness  of  the  farm 
employers  to  pay  what  was  a  quite  low  wage  rate,  but  one  that  the 
farm  workers  insisted  upon.  That  was  around  El  Paso,  in  the  cotton 
chopping.  On  the  other  hand,  I  think  in  most  areas  there  has  been 
pretty  effective  utilization  of  what  labor  supply  there  was  available, 
but  the  customary  labor  supply  has  been  depleted  by  draining  off 
into  war  industry,  and  secondly  by  Selective  Service.  Now  the 
Farm  Placement  Service  of  the  United  States  Employment  Service 
has  been  substantially  expanded  over  previous  years.  We  have,  in 
every  State,  individuals  responsible  for  the  farm  placement  job,  and 
that  job  alone,  and  we  have  endeavored  through  their  efforts  to  have 
each  of  our  local  offices  concentrate  on  the  determination  of  what  farm 
labor  was  needed,  and  the  recruitment  of  that  arm  labor  and  its 
direction  to  the  employers,  which  frequently  means  the  movement  of 
workers  from  one  office  area  to  another. 

I  think  to  the  extent — and  this  is  not  a  satisfying  answer — but  to 
the  extent  that  the  employers  have  placed  orders  with  the  Employ- 
ment Service,  we  have  been  able  to  fill  the  very  large  bulk  of  them. 
It  has  been  the  failure  of  the  employers  to  make  use  of  the  Employ- 
ment Service  that  has  resulted  in  these  shortages  that  actually  has 
caused  trouble. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Is  every  effort  made  to  insure  the  full  utilization 
of  local  labor  supplies  before  outside  labor  will  be  imported? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  think  that  can  be  said,  surely,  to  be  the  case. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  That  certainly  would  be  your  purpose? 

Mr.  Corson.  That  certainly  would  be  our  purpose. 

Mr.  Arnold.  The  committee  has  heard  much  about  the  difficulties 
of  holding  labor  on  farms  because  of  the  opportunities  of  earnings  in 
industry.  There  have  been  reports  in  the  press  that  farm  workers 
may  be  frozen  in  their  jobs.  Do  you  think  that  this  step  is  feasible 
at  the  present  time? 


Mr.  Corson.  I  doubt  if  it  is  feasible  at  the  present  time,  and  I 
doubt  if  it  is  feasible  because  of  the  factor  you  have  mentioned,  the 
differential  in  wages.  It  is  a  step  that  has  been  taken  in  each  other 
country  as  the  labor  supply  problem  has  matured  as  it  has  here. 


Mr.  Arnold.  Do  you  consider  that  the  present  methods  of  em- 
ploying seasonal  labor  on  farms  are  causing  a  waste  of  human  resources 
that  is  detrimental  to  the  war  effort? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  think  that  would  have  to  be  answered  in  the  affirm- 
ative, although  I  am  not  sure  how  the  seasonal  and  peak  uses  of  farm 
labor  are  to  be  smoothed  out.  We  don't  match  up  well  the  relative 
demands  for  farm  labor  and  insure  relative  full  employment  for  the 
individual  and  full  utilization  of  our  labor  resources.  The  Texas  Em- 
ployment Service  that  has  been  referred  to  in  the  past,  has  probably 
done  a  better  job  within  that  area  than  we  have  done  anywhere  else 
in  the  country  in  the  past,  in  actually  planning  in  advance  as  the 
season  moves  from  the  southern  areas  of  Texas  up  to  the  north  where 
labor  is  going  to  be  needed,  and  then  transferring  workers  in  an 
orderly  fashion  as  they  finish  up  the  harvesting  on  one  farm,  to  the 
requirements  on  the  next  farm  farther  along. 

Mr.  Arnold.  The  fact  of  the  matter  is,  you  will  know  a  lot  more 
about  farm  labor  and  the  needs  for  farm  labor  before  the  war  is  over 
than  you  have  had  occasion  to  know  in  the  past? 

Mr.  Corson.  Particularly  the  needs  for  farm  labor. 

Mr.  Arnold.  In  view  of  conflicting  reports  as  to  the  need  for  farm 
labor  in  certain  areas,  what  measure  of  need  will  the  Employment 
Service  adopt  as  the  basis  for  arranging  the  transportation  of  workers? 


Mr.  Corson.  We  have  developed  a  reporting  system  from  each  of 
our  local  offices,  which  is  designed  to  provide,  on  a  weekly  and  bi- 
weekly basis,  data  from  each  of  the  principal  crop  areas  as  to  the  labor 
needed  and  the  available  supply.  We  hope  that  through  this  report- 
ing system  we  can  keep  abreast  of  where  the  available  supply  of  labor 
is,  when  it  will  be  released  by  the  completion  of  the  farm  job  in  a  par- 
ticular area,  and  how  it  can  be  moved  on  to  the  next  area  where  the 
need  is  arising. 

Now  this  is  a  step  that  it  might  have  been  hoped  that  the  Employ- 
ment Service  had  developed  a  decade  ago  if  we  were  to  effectively 
utilize  our  human  resources.  It  wasn't  developed  a  decade  ago, 
primarily  because  we  were  operating  within  State  compartments  that 
weren't  concerned  with  the  labor  needs  of  other  States,  and  as  a  con- 
sequence we  never  had  the  impetus  for  the  management  of  our  human 
resources  in  the  manner  that  we  are  trying  to  do  now  when  the  supply 
is  very  scarce  in  relation  to  the  demand. 

Mr.  Arnold.  You  might  have  heard  me  ask  Mr.  Baldwin  this 
question.  I  wish  you  would  describe  more  fully  the  relation  of  the 
Employment  Service  to  the  work  of  the  O.  P.  A.  and  the  local  rationing 
boards.  It  was  called  to  the  attention  of  the  committee  the  other 
day  that  a  State  rationing  administration  in  a  certain  State  had 
instructed  a  county  administrator  to  prevent  the  migration  of  labor 


away  from  the  area  by  the  rationing  of  gasoline.  Growers  in  the  area 
were  demanding  the  labor,  and  growers  in  the  other  areas  were  trying 
to  get  hold  of  it.  Is  this  a  problem  for  the  Employment  Service  or  for 
the  gasoline  rationing  boards? 

Mr.  Corson.  The  Employment  Service  has  never  considered  that 
it  could  use  the  rationing  machinery  as  a  means  of  controlling  and 
restricting  the  movement  of  labor.  That  is  the  first  time  I  have 
learned  of  the  fact  that  maybe  one  local  employment  office  manager 
has  sought  to  use  that  device.  I  question  whether  we  should  use  that 
device,  and  we  have  not  as  yet  done  so. 


Mr.  Arnold.  Now  I  know  the  Employment  Service  has  been  short 
of  funds  to  carry  them  up  to  June  30.  Has  the  appropriation  for  the 
next  year  passed,  and  is  it  sufficient 

Mr.  Corson  (interposing).  The  appropriation  for  the  next  year  has 
not  passed,  and  the  amount  contained  in  the  present  bill  now  pending 
before  the  Senate  Appropriations  Committee  provides  for  no  expan- 
sion of  the  Employment  Service  over  its  present  curtailed  level  of 
operations.  We  have,  as  a  consequence,  presented  to  the  Bureau  of 
the  Budget  a  request  for  a  supplemental  appropriation  to  be  available 
during  the  full  year  1943  in  order  that  we  can  meet  the  demands  on 
the  Employment  Service.  It  was  pointed  out  to  the  House  Appro- 
priations Committee  that  the  appropriation  which  was  passed  by 
the  House  the  other  day  would  not  be  adequate  to  provide  for  the 
Employment  Service,  primarily  because  the  appropriation  request 
was  formulated  and  presented  back  in  the  latter  part  of  last  summer, 
before  the  declaration  of  war,  and  before  the  national  operation  of  the 
Employment  Service,  and  before  the  demands  on  the  Employment 
Service  had  matured  to  anything  like  their  present  character. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Then  you  anticipate  the  appropriation  will  be  raised 
by  the  Senate  committee,  or  that  another  supplemental  bill  will  have 
to  be  passed? 

Mr.  Corson.  We  anticipate  the  latter. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Otherwise,  you  will  be  very  short  in  the  extension  of 
your  activities  to  meet  the  unusual  conditions? 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes.  May  I  point  out  that  during  the  last  60  days 
the  Employment  Service  has  had  to  curtail  its  operations  very  sub- 
stantially. We  have  on  our  staff  now  1,000  less  people  than  we  had 
at  the  end  of  January ;  we  have  had  to  close  up  approximately  63  offices 
throughout  the  country;  and  we  have  had  to  allow  a  good  many  posi- 
tions, which  were  originally  provided  for  in  our  budget,  to  remain 
vacant  for  the  balance  of  the  fiscal  year.  The  funds  available  for 
next  year  will  permit  us,  perhaps  to  fill  the  vacant  positions,  but 
nothing  more;  and  that  in  the  face  of  a  pretty  substantially  expanded 
responsibility  since  January  1 . 

Dr.  Lamb.  I  don't  know  whether  you  answered  this,  Mr.  Corson, 
but  I  would  like  to  ask  it  and  get  your  answer  again  if  you  have  already 


Do  you  think  that  transportation  expenses  for  agricultural  workers 
should  be  borne  by  the  Government,  the  employer,  the  worker,  or 
any  combination  of  those? 


Mr.  Corson.  I  think  that  to  the  extent  they  can  be  borne  by  the 
employer,  they  should  be  first  borne  by  the  employer.  I  am  not  con- 
vinced that  they  can  be  borne  by  all  farm  employers.  Perhaps  it 
should  be  a  division  of  farm  employers  by  crops,  rather  than  by  size. 
But  the  margins  within  certain  crop  productions  I  think  are  such  that 
you  won't  get  farm  employers  to  bear  transportation  expenses. 
Rather  they  will  reduce  production,  and  that  we  cannot  stand  at  this 
time.  Hence  I  come  to  the  conclusion  that  it  will  be  necessary  before 
this  war  is  over  for  the  Government  to  provide  means  of  transportation 
for  agricultural  workers. 

Dr.  Lamb.  The  problem  of  determining  just  what  size  employer 
should  be  assisted,  or  what  crop  should  be  assisted  is  probably  going 
to  be  a  troublesome  one. 

Mr.  Corson.  Certainly  as  to  what  crops  should  be  assisted,  and 
I  should  think  the  Department  of  Agriculture,  with  its  knowledge  of 
the  profit  margins  in  the  varying  crops,  and  the  essentialness  of  the 
crop  to  war  production,  could  make  some  determinations. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Before  you  leave  that  line,  do  you  think  it  might  be 
worked  out  so  that  instead  of  the  Government  assuming  any  trans- 
portation charge  or  responsibility,  letting  the  Department  of  Agricul- 
ture decide  what  crops  should  be  subsidized.  In  other  words  if,  in  this 
food-for-victory  program,  people  are  going  to  be  called  upon  to  grow 
unprofitable  crops  in  order  to  meet  the  requirements  of  the  Govern- 
ment hi  its  commitments  to  our  Allies,  as  well  as  our  own  needs,  would 
it  be  well  in  such  cases  for  the  Government  to  subsidize  the  growing 
of  those  crops? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  think  that  is  essentially  what  is  going  to  be 
done,  although  I  don't  feel  competent  to  pass  judgment  as  to  whether 
that  is  the  desirable  thing  to  do.  I  don't  know  enough  about  the 
relative  costs  of  production  and  the  price  available  for  the  crops  to 
know  whether  subsidization  is  essential  or  whether  one  might  expect 
the  production  without  further  subsidization. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  Well,  of  course,  I  assume  that  the  Department  of 
Agriculture  would  have  those  facts  at  hand. 

Mr.  Corson.  I  would  assume  so. 

Mr.  Sparkman.  The  point  I  am  trying  to  make  is  that  after  all  in 
connection  with  some  of  the  crops  the  cost  of  transporting  the  workers 
might  be  only  one  item  of  the  cost  in  an  unprofitable  venture. 

Mr.  Corson.  That  is  correct. 

Dr.  Lamb.  You  mentioned  earlier  that  one  of  your  principal  diffi- 
culties was  the  failure  of  employers  to  use  the  Farm  Placement  Service. 
Recently  there  are  indications  that  as  far  as  industrial  employment 
for  war  production  is  concerned  the  employer  will  be  required,  for  at 
least  certain  types  of  production,  to  use  the  Employment  Service. 

Mr.  Corson.  For  certain  occupations,  I  would  say. 

Dr.  Lamb.  If  not  for  the  whole  operation,  certainly  for  certain 
skilled  trades  or  scarce  trades  of  one  kind  or  another. 

Mr.  Corson.  That  has  been  suggested  and  discussed  with  the  War 
Manpower  Commission,  but  actually  has  not  yet  been  directed. 


Dr.  Lamb.  I  understand.  But  what  I  am  getting  at  is  there  would 
seem  to  be  a  similar  relationship  inherent  in  the  demands  made  by 
the  Department  of  Agriculture  on  the  grower  to  expand  his  production 


and  the  question  is  whether  this  expanded  output  will  carry  with  it 
any  responsibility  for  turning  to  the  Employment  Service  lor  getting 
out  the  crop,  and  what  the  responsibility  of  the  Government  is  with 
respect  to  these  demands  for  expanded  output,  whether  the  Govern- 
ment has  a  responsibility  on  the  one  hand  to  require  the  employer  to 
hire  through  the  Farm  Placement  Service,  and  on  the  other  hand  to 
give  him  a  kind  of  service  which  it  has  not  been  accustomed  to  give 
in  the  past  because  the  end  goal  in  sight  is  the  expanded  food-pro- 
duction program,  and  if  we  are  serious  about  our  desire  to  get  that  out, 
then  other  considerations  tend  to  become  secondary. 

Mr.  Corson.  I  think  it  can  be  said  that  that  is  inherent  in  the 
Government's  demand  for  certain  crops.  Take  for  example  the 
long-staple  cotton  crop  in  southern  Arizona,  New  Mexico,  and  around 
El  Paso.  The  whole  crop,  I  believe,  has  been  contracted  for  by  the 
Government.  If  it  is  essential  to  the  prosecution  of  this  war  cer- 
tainly that  crop  will  not  be  as  large  a  crop  unless  there  is  assurance 
given  to  those  growers  that  there  is  going  to  be  an  adequate  supply 
of  labor.  The  Government  then  has  to  assume  some  further  respon- 
sibility and  that  is  with  respect  to  the  level  of  compensation  that 
workers  are  expected  to  work  for  on  such  crops  where  the  grower  is 
to  be  provided  with  the  service  of  moving  workers  to  him. 

Dr.  Lamb.  In  other  words,  once  you  are  in  the  position  of  requiring 
the  use  of  that  service  because  the  needs  of  the  Nation  at  war  require 
the  output,  you  are  automatically  in  the  framework  of  requiring  cer- 
tain other  things  also,  such  as  the  wage  to  be  paid  and  the  conditions 
of  transportation,  and  whether  the  Government  will  pay  those  costs 
or  the  employer? 

Mr.  Corson.  That  is  correct. 


Dr.  Lamb.  You  go  from  this  voluntary  procedure  which  the 
Employment  Service  has  used  in  peacetime  of  being  a  referral  agency— 
that  is  largely  what  the  Farm  Placement  Service  particularly  has 
been — to  being  an  agency  for  actual  recruiting  and  placement  of 
workers  under  fairly  rigid  conditions. 

Mr.  Corson.  There  is  another  situation  inherent  in  the  farm  labor 
problem  that  may  dictate  the  same  end  that  you  described,  and  that 
is  the  movement  of  agricultural  workers.  In  industry  the  necessity 
of  compelling  employers  to  use  the  Employment  Service  arises  out  of 
the  waste  of  labor,  the  waste  of  precious  man-hours  of  labor,  when  one 
employer,  without  using  the  Employment  Service,  steals  or  pirates 
workers  away  from  another  employer.  The  movement  back  and 
forth  from  one  employer  to  another  represents  a  rather  costly  waste 
of  manpower.  We  have  a  rather  comparable  situation,  it  seems  to 
me,  in  the  agricultural  labor  areas,  to  the  extent  that  we  have  a  waste  of 
workers  who  are  moving  from  one  area  to  another  in  a  rather  hap- 
hazard movement,  without  plan,  without  knowledge  of  employment 
opportimities,  without  any  assurance  that  if  they  go  into  a  particular 
area,  that  they  will  finish  all  of  the  work  in  the  area  for  a  variety  and 
number  of  farmers,  before  they  leave  the  area,  when  others  may  be 
brought  in  later  from  another  section  to  serve  the  needs  of  other 


Dr.  Lamb.  In  other  words,  you  have  a  responsibility  for  the  total 
labor  supply  being  adequately  used  and  the  maximum  of  production 
achieved  with  that  labor  supply  in  an  area,  if  this  point  of  view  is 
pursued  to  its  logical  conclusion? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  think  the  Nation,  irrespective  of  the  Employment 
Service,  has  an  obligation  of  insuring  that  if  we  are  really  to  utilize 
our  manpower  in  war  production  it  requires  more  than  just  providing 
a  large  number  of  jobs;  it  requires  the  utilization  of  each  individual 
for  his  full  time  to  the  maximum  degree  possible. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Now  in  that  connection  could  you  tell  the  committee  in 
what  areas  the  Employment  Service  has  made  positive  efforts  to 
mobilize  agricultural  labor  which,  for  example,  is  stranded  after  a 
crop  season?  Do  you  do  this  also  only  in  response  to  requests  for 
clearance  from  other  areas,  or  would  you  mobilize  that  supply  and 
announce  its  availability  to  your  other  offices  in  some  definite  way? 

Mr.  Corson.  Well,  in  Texas,  which  is  the  best  illustration  of  the 
fact  of  how  it  has  been  done  in  previous  years,  there  has  been  for  the 
last  several  years  an  effort  to  locate  the  available  labor  resources  on 
farms,  find  out  when  that  labor  would  no  longer  be  needed  on  that 
farm,  and  then  make  advance  provision  for  its  referral  up  to  the  next 
sector  of  the  farm  area,  to  insure  that  it  is  available  there  when  the 
crops  are  ready  to  be  harvested  there. 

Now  we  are  at  the  moment  trying  to  do  the  same  thing  along  the 
whole  eastern  coast  with  respect  to  the  migratory  group  that  comes 
up  from  Florida,  to  take  that  group  as  it  finishes  its  work  in  Florida 
and  to  insure  that  it  moves  along  into  first  South  Carolina,  then  into 
North  Carolina,  then  into  the  Norfolk,  Va.,  truck  crop  area,  and  on 
up  the  east  coast. 

Dr.  Lamb.  In  Texas  this  has  depended  to  a  considerable  extent  on 
the  existence  and  the  knowledge  of  the  labor  contractor,  has  it  not? 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes. 

Dr.  Lamb.  And  that  is  not  as  well  developed  on  the  east  coast,  and 
consequently  would  require  time? 

Mr.  Corson.  It  would  require  more  effort  on  the  part  of  the 
Employment  Service. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Would  you  say  that  dealing  with  the  labor  contractor 
in  Texas  has  been  a  thoroughly  satisfactory  experience  to  the  Texas 
State  Employment  Service? 

Mr.  Corson.  It  is  not  thoroughly  satisfactory.  I  think  there  have 
been  substantial  questions  raised  as  to  the  conditions  of  employment, 
and  the  conditions  of  transportation  under  which  they  were  moved. 
It  is  a  practice  and  a  pattern  by.  which  workers  have  been  recruited  in 
Texas  long  before  the  Employment  Service  had  any  substantial  part 
in  it. 


Dr.  Lamb.  Employers  frequently  complain  that  the  contractor 
switches  labor  after  a  limited  period  of  work,  and  that  they  can't 
get  the  full  use  out  of  it. 

Mr.  Corson.  They  complain  of  the  same  thing  of  the  Employment 
Service  in  other  areas.  Whenever  the  Employment  Service  attempts 
to  actually  insure  the  full  employment  of  workers  and  their  maximum 
employment — as  in  New  Jersey,  for  example,  we  assigned  a  group  of 
100  workers  to  a  particular  area — and  we  try  to  keep  contact  with  them 
to  find  out  when  they  will  be  through  so  that  we  can  move  them  on  to 


the  next  area  and  make  use  of  those  people  and  provide  for  their 
employment.  The  farmer  who  is  loath  to  see  them  leave  until  he 
has  everything  completed,  perhaps  lets  them  wait  around  for  a  couple 
of  days  when  he  has  no  work  for  them  on  that  particular  farm,  and  he 
is  loath  to  have  the  Employment  Service  come  in  there  and  take  them 
to  another  locality. 

Dr.  Lamb.  It  is  a  question  of  splicing  the  ends. 

Mr.  Corson.  Yes. 


Dr.  Lamb.  One  other  question.  With  respect  to  the  proposed 
utilization  of  high-school  boys  and  so  on,  in  your  estimation  how  can 
this  be  worked  out  so  that  it  will  not  be  detrimental  either  to  the 
employment  of  the  regular  farm  labor,  or  to  the  wages  received  by  this 
farm  labor? 

Mr.  Corson.  Of  course  we  would  expect  that  this  group  would  be 
employed  at  the  prevailing  wage  standards,  and  we  would  endeavor 
to  insure  that  that  was  the  case.  I  think  there  is  some  assurance  that 
that  will  be  the  case  in  the  fact  that  there  is  such  a  scarcity  of  available 
labor.  I  am  not  sure  that  we  can  do  much  more  than  endeavor  to 
maintain,  in  our  contacts  with  the  farmers,  the  wage  standards  and  the 
living  standards  under  which  these  people  will  be  employed. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Have  you  been  able  to  make  any  arrangements,  for  ex- 
ample, with  the  State  or  local  civilian  defense  agencies  which  in  some 
places  have  been  active  in  mobilizing  these  groups,  that  all  referrals 
and  placements  shall  take  place  through  the  Employment  Service,  so 
that  conditions  which  are  laid  down,  for  example  by  the  Children's 
Bureau,  shall  be  met? 

Mr.  Corson.  That  has  been  done,  particularly  in  Connecticut. 
There  we  have  a  very  effective  working  relationship  with  the  State 
defense  council  organization.  It  is  not  only  true  in  Connecticut  al- 
though that  perhaps  is  the  outstanding  example,  but  there  are  a  num- 
ber of  States  in  which  the  State  defense  councils  have  collaborated  with 
us  and  have  very  effectively  helped  us  to  obtain  the  registration  of  in- 
dividuals who  were  willing  to  work  on  farms,  and  in  that  way  to  insure 
their  placement  on  farms  under  satisfactory  conditions. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Do  you  think  that  a  directive  from  the  Manpower  Com- 
mission, worked  out  in  collaboration  with  Mr.  Landis  and  the  Office 
of  Civilian  Defense,  would  be  of  assistance  in  that  regard,  on  a  Nation- 
wide basis? 

Mr.  Corson.  I  think  it  might.  We  have  been  considering  that  and 
plan  to  discuss  it  further  with  the  Office  of  Civilian  Defense.  I  think 
it  probably  would  be. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Corson,  we  appreciate 
your  coming  here  very  much. 

(The  following  letter  and  statement  were  ordered  printed  in  the 

Federal  Security  Agency,  Social  Security  Board, 

United  States  Employment  Service, 

Washington,  June  26,  1942. 
Hon.  John  H.  Tolan, 

House  of  Representatives, 

Washington,  D.  C. 

Dear  Mr.  Tolan:  This  is  with  reference  to  your  letter  dated  June  15,  in  which 
you  request  a  supplemental  statement  to  my  remarks  on  reduced  railroad  rates 
for  agricultural  labor  made  before  vour  committee. 


A  supplement  to  such  remarks  was  included  in  my  written  testimony  on  Trans- 
portation of  Workers  in  Agriculture  and  Industry  submitted  to  Dr.  Lamb's 
office  June  18.  Negotiations  have  been  under  way  for  several  weeks  with  the 
Office   of   Defense   Transportation  for  reduced   rates  for  agricultural  workers. 

Informal  discussions  lead  us  to  believe  that  the  lowest  rates  we  may  expect  will 
be  1.6  and  2.2  cents  per  mile  for  the  southern  and  northern  territories,  respec- 
tively. We  are  now  awaiting  some  disposition  of  the  matter  from  G.  Floyd  Wil- 
son, Director,  Division  of  Rates,  and  we  will  be  glad  to  inform  you  as  to  decisions 

We  regret  that  we  are  unable  to  comply  with  your  request  for  interagency  corre- 
spondence on  this  matter  since  it  has  been  handled  entirely  on  a  discussion  basis. 

Your  interest  in  this  phase  of  the  farm-placement  problem  is  appreciated. 
Very  sincerely  yours, 

(Signed)  John  J.  Corson 

John  J.  Corson,  Director. 


Transportation  of  Workers  in  Agriculture  and  Industry 

The  problem  of  labor  shortages  in  the  United  States  (with  the  exception  of  the 
shortages  of  highly  skilled  industrial  workers)  arises  not  from  a  shortage  of  man- 
power as  such,  but  from  maldistribution  of  the  available  labor  supply  relative  to 
the  areas  and  sources  of  demand.  There  are  in  the  United  States  today  at  least 
several  millions  of  workers  employable,  unemployed,  and  seeking  employment. 
There  are,  in  addition,  many  more  millions  of  workers  who  can  and  will  be  avail- 
able when  there  are  needs  for  them.  At  the  same  time  there  are  a  number  of  areas, 
both  agricultural  and  industrial,  in  which  the  demand  for  labor,  either  year-round 
or  seasonal,  exceeds  the  supply  immediately  available  to  meet  it. 

In  such  areas  transportation  is  frequently  the  key  to  the  solution  of  the  recruit- 
ment and  placement  problems.  Where  the  shortages  within  an  area  are  such 
that  the  most  efficient  mobilization  of  all  available  labor  reserves  will  still  leave  a 
portion  of  the  demand  unmet,  the  problem  can  be  solved  only  by  the  in-migration 
of  workers  from  outside  the  area.  This  is  equally  true  of  agriculture  and  industrial 
areas.  On  the  other  hand,  where  sufficient  reserves  of  labor  can  be  mobilized 
within  the  community  or  within  reasonable  commuting  distance,  it  is  necessary 
to  provide  facilities  to  transport  workers  between  their  homes  and  the  places  of 
employment.  This  is  particularly  true  where  attempts  are  made  to  mobilize  the 
labor  resources  of  rural  communities  by  the  recruitment  of  workers  who  must 
then  be  transported  from  towns  and  villages  or  from  neighboring  farms  to  the 
places  of  employment;  but  it  is  also  true  where  industrial  workers  live  at  some  dis- 
tance from  the  job  site  and  must  commute  daily. 

In  the  variety  of  transportation  problems  which  arise,  in  connection  both  with 
agricultural  and  with  industrial  employment,  two  general  types  may  be  distin- 

(1)  The  problem  of  transporting  workers  over  relatively  long  distances  between 
points  served  by  common  carriers.  This  is  primarily  a  financial  problem;  that 
is,  workers  and  employers  are  either  unable  or  unwilliing  to  pay  the  transportation 

(2)  The  problem  of  intra-area  transportation  between  points  not  served 
adequately,  if  at  all,  by  common  carriers.  This  is  primarily  a  problem  of  facili- 
ties; that  is,  while  the  transportation  per  se  is  not  very  expensive,  the  absence  of 
common  carriers  and  the  shortages  of  tires  and  gasoline  impede  the  intra-area 
mobility.  This  is  true  both  of  commuting  of  industrial  workers  and  of  the 
circulation  of  agricultural  workers  from  village  to  farm  or  from  farm  to  farm 
within  an  agricultural  area. 

The  problems  of  transportation  for  war  workers,  both  agricultural  and  indus- 
trial, have  been  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  War  Manpower  Commission. 
The  Manpower  Commission  and  the  United  States  Employment  Service  are 
now  working  with  the  Office  of  Defense  Transportation  and  the  Department  of 
Agriculture  on  a  number  of  proposed  measures  to  meet  these  problems.  It  is 
expected  that  specific  plans  will  be  proposed  shortly. 



In  many  areas  agriculture  is  dependent  on  large  supplies  of  seasonal  labor  for 
relatively  short  periods  of  time.  These  areas  are  for  the  most  part  those  special- 
izing in  production  of  vegetables,  fruits,  cotton,  and  specialty  crops  such  as  hops, 
sugar  beets,  and  tobacco,  which  require  a  great  deal  of  hand  labor  for  planting, 
cultivation,  or  harvesting.  In  many  instances  the  areas  in  which  such  crops 
are  grown  are  sparsely  settled  or,  if  adjacent  to  urban  centers,  have  lost  much 
of  their  labor  through  migration  of  farm  workers  to  more  attractive  job  oppor- 
tunities in  urban  employment.  In  the  past,  because  of  the  presence  of  large 
reserves  of  unemployed  labor,  farmers  have  been  able  to  meet  their  seasonal 
demands  for  the  most  part  without  difficulty.  More  recently,  however,  the 
increasing  drain  of  rural  population  to  take  employment  in  war  industries, 
coupled  with  the  induction  of  young  men  into  military  service,  has  made  it 
necessary  to  mobilize  and  utilize  more  efficiently  the  labor  that  is  or  can  be 
made  available  to  perform  seasonal  agricultural  work. 

This  can  be  done  in  two  ways:  First,  it  is  frequently  possible  to  meet  the 
needs  of  agricultural  employers  for  short  seasonal  periods  by  mobilizing  effi- 
ciently the  labor  within  the  area  itself.  This  means  pooling  and  exchanging 
labor  among  farms,  as  well  as  enlisting  school  children,  housewives,  and  some- 
times workers  regularly  employed  in  nonagricultural  employment,  in  order  to  use 
the  entire  labor  resources  of  the  area.  Customarily  these  workers  would  be 
transported  from  their  homes  in  the  villages  or  on  the  farms  to  the  farms  where 
they  are  to  work  by  privately  owned  automobiles  or  by  trucks  supplied  by  the 
farmers.  The  shortages  of  tires  and  gasoline,  however,  have  greatly  curtained 
the  use  of  automobiles  and  farmers  are  more  and  more  reluctant  to  use  their 
tires  to  transport  workers  in  trucks.  Nevertheless  the  growing  shortages  of 
workers  available  for  agricultural  employment  makes  it  imperative  that  some 
means  be  found  for  mobilizing  workers  within  an  area  to  meet  these  short  sea- 
sonal peaks  of  employment. 

In  certain  areas,  however,  even  the  most  efficient  use  of  local  labor  will  not 
suffice  to  meet  the  peak  needs.  Many  such  areas  have  traditionally  depended 
on  an  annual  influx  of  migratory  workers.  Such  workers  sometimes  migrate 
directly  from  their  homes  to  an  area  in  which  it  is  known  that  work  opportunities 
will  exist;  and  sometimes  migrate  over  long  distances  following  the  peak  seasonal 
demands  enroute.  The  pattern  of  migration  on  the  eastern  seaboard  is  typical 
of  the  problems  of  migratory  farm  labor.  The  migration  of  farm  workers  on  the 
east  coast  begins  in  Florida.  Large  numbers  of  workers  migrate  to  the  southern 
tip  of  that  State  to  harvest  winter  and  early  spring  truck  crops.  It  has  been 
estimated  that  in  normal  years  some  18,000  migrant  workers  are  employed  in  the 
two  southeasternmost  counties  of  Florida,  about  one-fourth  of  them  coming 
short  distances  from  within  the  area  and  the  other  three-fourths  from  Georgia 
and  other  nearby  States.  As  the  season  tapers  off  in  these  counties,  some  of 
these  workers  return  to  their  homes,  but  large  numbers  move  northward  through 
other  Florida  counties  and  Georgia  and  later  farther  north  through  the  Carolinas 
and  Virginia  to  the  Del-Mar-Va  Peninsula,  and  finally  to  the  truck  and  fruit 
farming  areas  of  southern  New  Jersey.  At  various  stages  in  this  migration 
workers  leave  the  migratory  movement  to  return  to  their  homes,  but  many  of 
them  complete  the  journey  to  New  Jersey  after  which  they  return  to  their  homes 
or  to  the  south  of  Florida  to  start  work  on  fall  and  early  winter  vegetables. 

Such  a  migratory  movement  involves  travel  of  thousands  of  workers  over 
hundreds  of  miles.  The  farm  areas  along  the  route  depend,  to  a  very  large 
extent,  on  having  these  migrant  workers  available  in  the  needed  numbers  and  at 
the  right  time.  If  the  migratory  movement  fails,  serious  crop  losses  may  result. 
Similar  migratory  movements  occur  in  the  Southwest,  the  Rocky  Mountain 
regions,  and  the  Pacific  coast,  in  addition  to  smaller  movements  of  workers  over 
shorter  distances  in  other  parts  of  the  country. 

This  year,  it  would  appear  that  because  of  the  expanding  employment  oppor- 
tunities in  nonagricultural  war  production  and  because  of  the  induction  of  agri- 
cultural workers  into  military  service,  both  the  local  supphes  and  the  migrant 
supplies  of  agricultural  labor  will  be  greatly  curtailed.  Tnis,  coupled  witn  the 
expansion  of  agricultural  production  in  many  of  the  crops  dependent  or  seasonal 
labor,  will  require  a  more  efficient  and  effective  use  of  the  available  agricultural 
labor  than  in  the  past.  It  is  necessary,  therefore,  to  see  that  labor  does  not  lose 
time  wandering  about  in  search  of  work  and  that  workers  are  promptly  trans- 
ported from  farm  to  farm  within  areas  and  from  one  area  tot  demand  to  another 
m  order  to  avoid  loss  of  precious  working  time.     This  in  turn  requires  that  the 


farm  placement  facilities  of  the  United  States  Employment  Service  provide  infor- 
mation on  the  areas  and  periods  of  seasonal  demand  and  take  the  steps  necessary 
to  mobilize  local  labor  and  route  migrant  labor  accordingly.  In  order  that  this 
may  be  done,  adequate  transportation  facilities,  both  within  areas  and  between 
areas,  must  be  provided  to  replace  the  privately  owned  automobiles  in  which  such 
workers  formerly  traveled. 

A  number  of  illustrations  of  specific  transportation  problems  drawn  from  recent 
reports  of  the  United  States  Employment  Service,  are  included  in  appendix  A. 

In  order  to  direct  and,  to  some  extent,  to  control  the  movement  of  farm  workers 
over  long  distances  (whether  in  one  long  trip  or  in  small  stages)  the  Government 
might  arrange  with  the  common  carriers  to  reduce  their  rates  for  migrant  workers 
when  the  need  for  such  workers  was  certified  by  the  Employment  Service  or  some 
other  public  agency.  Alternatively,  the  Government  might  subsidize  in  whole  or 
in  part  travel  that  was  considered  necessary  or  might  itself  provide  the  means  of 
transportation  in  Government-owned  vehicles. 

The  transportation  of  farm  workers  among  the  farms  within  an  area  is  also 
becoming  a  problem  of  increasing  concern.  Farmers  are  apparently  using  their 
trucks  as  little  as  possible  for  this  purpose.  It  is  reported  that  some  workers  who 
might  ordinarily  stay  in  the  Farm  Security  Administration  camps  are  now  being 
induced  to  live  on  the  farms  in  order  to  avoid  the  daily  movement.  Frequently 
this  results  in  inefficient  use  of  labor  since  farmers  prefer  to  keep  workers  on  the 
farms  for  the  duration  of  the  crop  activity  even  though  the  workers  may  not  be 
fully  occupied  throughout  the  period.  This  requires  more  workers  within  the 
area  than  would  be  necessary  if  each  one  were  fully  occupied.  It  has  been  sug- 
gested that  this  problem  might  be  met  by  the  pooling  of  trucks  or  of  funds  for  bus 
or  truck  hire  by  the  farmers  within  the  area.  The  increasing  difficulty  of  obtain- 
ing tires  is  an  obstacle  to  either  one.  The  use  of  school  busses  or  other  public 
vehicles  has  also  been  suggested,  but  here  again  the  shortage  of  rubber  makes 
public  authorities  reluctant  to  permit  the  use  of  their  vehicles  for  otner  purposes 
than  those  for  which  they  are  primarily  intended.  The  use  of  school  busses  to 
transport  workers  from  farm  to  farm  might  later  on  make  ttieir  use  to  transport 
school  children  impossible.  In  this  case  as  in  the  case  ot  long-distance  transporta- 
tion, the  Government  itself  may  be  forced  to  supply  facilities  to  serve  areas  beyond 
the  routes  of  common  carriers.  In  this  case,  however,  it  is  not  the  cost  of  trans- 
portation so  much  as  the  shortage  of  transportation  facilities  that  creates  the 


The  problems  of  transporting  workers  to  meet  the  labor  demands  of  war  in- 
dustries, like  the  problems  in  agriculture,  involve  both  long-distance  and  short- 
distance  movement.  The  enormous  demands  in  some  urban  centers  of  war 
production  will  require  large-scale  in-migration.  The  most  mobile  segments  of 
the  population  in  the  areas  of  labor  supply  have  already  moved  in  response  to 
employment  opportunities  in  the  cities.  To  an  increasing  extent  it  is  necessary 
to  recruit  labor  farther  and  farther  from  the  source  of  demand.  This  means,  of 
course,  increased  cost  of  transportation.  In  the  early  days  of  the  war-production 
program  trainees  and  other  workers  migrated  to  the  cities  from  nearby  towns  and 
rural  areas.  Now  it  is  becoming  increasingly  difficult  to  recruit  trainees  because 
they  come  from  longer  distances.  It  may,  therefore,  be  necessary  for  the  Govern- 
ment to  provide  some  inducement,  whether  by  loan  or  subsidy,  or  by  the  payment 
of  transportation  costs  entirely,  to  encourage  and  direct  the  necessary  migration. 

In  many  cities  also  the  war  industries  are  manned  or  will  be  manned  by  workers 
already  resident  in  or  near  the  community.  Where  there  is  transportation  by 
common  carrier  between  the  principal  are" "  of  residence  and  the  war  production 
plants,  the  problem  is  to  arrange  for  the  n.  efficient  use  of  these  facilities  or  if 
necessary  to  expand  them.  This  will  become  creasingly  important  as  the  use 
of  privately  owned  automobiles  is  curtailed  by  ;hortage  of  rubber  or  gasoline. 

In  addition  to  this  general  problem  there  are  a  num  of  special  types  of  intra-area 
transportation  difficulties  that  have  emerged  :  i  the  staffing  of  war  production 
plants.     Some  of  the  more  common  situations  are  lis!   d  below: 

1.  Metropolitan  areas  in  which  traffic  congestion  is  bt  'ng  aggravated  to  a  serious 
extent  by  large  increases  in  employment  at  war  plain  throughout  the  city  as 
normal  private  transportation  is  curtailed.  Chicago  and  Los  Angeles  typify 
this  problem. 

2.  Localities  where  a  major  war  project  is  located  some  distance  from  the  large 
city  which  is  its  source  of  labor,  necessitating  mass  public  transportation  from  the 


supply  area  to  the  factory.     Baltimore,  Kansas  City,  and  Detroit  illustrate  this 

3.  A  variation  of  the  above  problem  found  in  shipbuilding  centers  where  bridges 
and  ferries  are  required  to  transport  workers  to  their  jobs  and  where  employment 
has  expanded  far  more  rapidly  than  transportation  facilities.  Seattle,  Portland, 
and  San  Francisco  are  examples  of  this  situation. 

4.  Areas  whose  labor  supply  is  inadequate  to  meet  the  needs  of  war  firms  but 
which  can  draw  on  a  relatively  centralized  labor  supply  within  commuting  dis- 
tance, if  suitable  transportation  between  the  two  cities  is  provided.  Central 
Long  Island,  N.  Y.,  and  Eudora,  Kans.,  are  appropriate  illustrations. 

5.  Localities  whose  inadequate  labor  supply  and  whose  geographic  position 
compel  new  or  expanding  war  industries  to  draw  on  a  decentralized  labor  supply 
in  the  surrounding  territory.  In  this  type  of  area  one  frequently  faces  the  alterna- 
tive of  providing  satisfactory  transportation  over  a  wide  area  or  of  constructing 
additional  housing  and  community  facilities  to  care  for  excessive  in-migration. 
Mobile,  Ala.;  Parsons,  Kans.;  Ravenna- Warren-Niles,  Ohio;  Alton,  111.;  and 
Willimantic,  Conn.,  serve  to  exemplify  this  point. 

6.  Areas  in  which  transportation  difficulties  due  to  various  causes  are  being 
aggravated  by  such  artificial  barriers  as  excessive  tolls  and  ferry  fees,  or  by  wasteful 
cross-commuting.  The  Hampton  Roads  area  in  Virginia  is  an  outstanding  ex- 
ample of  all  three  of  these  factors. 

The  transportation  for  construction  workers  presents  still  another  difficult 
problem.  These  workers  customarily  commute  over  fairly  long  distances  to  jobs 
in  the  general  vicinity  of  the  places  in  which  they  live  and  customarily  migrate 
from  project  to  project  over  a  fairly  wide  area.  In  the  past  they  have  depended 
primarily  on  privately  owned  automobiles.  In  the  future  they  will  be  dependent 
on  common  carriers,  where  the  projects  are  accessible  to  common  carriers,  or  on 
temporary  transportation  facilities  especially  provided  for  the  duration  of  a  given 
project.  Construction  jobs  which  are  beyond  commuting  distance  from  centers 
of  labor  supply  will  entail  temporary  housing  for  workers  at  the  site,  as  in  the 
past;  but  some  special  means  of  transportation  may  need  to  be  provided  to  move 
workers  to  the  site  and  back. 


During  the  first  World  War  the  Employment  Service  successfully  undertook 
the  mass  transportation  of  unskilled  construction,  production,  and  agricultural 
workers  from  one  area  to  another  by  using  regular  Government  requests  for 
railroad  transportation. 

Under  the  procedures  developed  at  that  time,  the  employers  agreed  to  reim- 
burse the  Government  for  transportation  expenses  after  the  workers  reported 
for  employment;  in  the  case  of  temporary  jobs  payment  of  return  transportation 
was  also  guaranteed  by  the  employer.  Managers  of  local  employment  offices 
transmitted  to  State  central  offices  the  names,  occupations,  starting  points,  and 
destination  of  the  workers  involved.  Conductors  on  the  trains  on  which  these 
workers  were  transported  likewise  reported  to  the  State  railroad  representative 
the  number,  starting  point,  and  destination  of  the  workers  in  question.  On  the 
basis  of  reports  from  local  managers,  mass  Government  transportation  requests 
were  filled  out  in  the  central  State  office  and  sent  to  the  State  representative  for 
the  railroads.  State  railroad  representatives  checked  the  transportation  requests 
against  conductor  reports  and  the  rail  fares  of  workers  who  did  not  arrive  at 
their  destination  were  deducted  therefrom.  After  the  railroad  company  bills 
were  received  the  employers  to  whom  the  workers  were  transported  were  billed 
and  the  railroad's  claim  "was  settled  after  the  employer  had  sent  in  the  required 

During  the  period  1918  to  1920  the  United  States  Employment  Service  advanced 
the  transportation  costs  of  29,935  workers  going  to  and  returning  from  war 
industries  and  employers  reimbursed  the  Service  to  the  extent  of  $417,404  at 
an  average  per  capita  cost  of  $13.94. 

Two  problems  arising  under  this  plan  were  — 

1 .  Inability  to  control  movement  of  all  workers.  A  small  percentage  of  workers 
got  off  the  train  before  arrival  at  destination. 

2.  A  tendency  for  employers  to  pass  on  to  workers  the  cost  of  transportation 
by  subsequent  deduction  from  pay.  It  was  difficult  to  develop  adequate  safe- 
guards against  this  practice. 

60396—  4:2— pt.  33- 


Statements    on    Transportation    Problems    Appearing   in    Reports    From 
Local  Employment  Offices 


Syracuse  area.  —"One  other  problem  that  might  arise  in  using  any  but  very- 
local  sources  of  supply  is  obtaining  transportation  to  some  of  the  outlying  areas." 

Nassau  and  Suffolk  Counties.—  "Although  many  persons  have  signed  up  for 
farm  work,  the  problem  of  transporting  these  persons  and  housing  them  in  farm 
areas  has  still  to  be  solved." 

One  of  the  major  problems  in  getting  workers  recruited  in  metropolitan  New 
York  to  up-State  farms  during  the  summer  and  fall  peak  seasons  concerns  pro- 
vision of  organized  transportation  for  the  recruits. 


Many  of  the  granite  workers  in  Washington  County  who  registered  for  part- 
time  farm  work  will  not  be  available,  because  of  gas  rationing  *  *  *  "doubt- 
ful if  many  will  care  to  use  their  cars  going  to  and  from  the  various  farms  and 
there  is  no  other  means  of  transportation  available." 

Transportation  difficulties  were  expected  in  the  New  Albany,  Ind.,  area,  where 
strawberry  patches  are  widely  separated,  necessitating  transporting  pickers  to 
and  from  work,  and  from  one  strawberry  patch  to  another. 

In  various  towns  there  is  a  plentiful  supply  of  labor,  but  no  means  of  transport- 
ing them  to  farms  where  they  could  be  employed.  The  big  problem  which  is 
going  to  be  the  deciding  factor  in  whether  or  not  the  crops  will  be  planted  and 
harvested  this  year  is  the  transportation  problem. 

The  employment  service  in  Illinois  reported  that  the  Civilian  Conservation 
Corps  enrollees  at  Camp  Grant,  in  Winnebago,  111.,  could  be  considered  a  potential 
source  of  supply  for  canning  factories  only  if  transportation  were  provided. 


"The  Lancaster  office  reports  that  difficulty  is  still  being  encountered  in  secur- 
ing farm  labor  and  has  indicated  that  lack  of  transportation  facilities,  age,  and 
physical  restrictions  imposed  are  responsible  for  some  of  the  difficulty  in  obtaining 
farm  workers." 


The  Employment  Service  office  in  Pierre  has  found  some  difficulty  in  getting 
applicants  to  employers  because  of  lack  of  transportation. 


In  their  report  of  February  15  to  March  15,  the  United  States  Employment 
Service  office  in  this  State  reported  that  automobile  tire  shortages  would  diminish 
the  number  of  migratory  farm  workers  who  previously  traveled  about  in  their 
own  cars.  Sugar  companies,  in  their  recruiting  campaigns  are  now  beginning  to 
offer  to  pay  for  transportation  costs,  either  gasoline  or  carfare,  as  an  inducement 
for  beet  workers  to  come  to  this  State.  The  Great  Western  Sugar  Co.  has  been 
cited  as  an  example  of  this  practice. 

In  other  instances,  sugar  companies  are  faced  with  the  necessity  of  arranging 
transportation  for  sugar  beet  workers.  The  Holly  Sugar  Co.  at  Sidney,  plans  to 
send  busses  to  Texas  and  other  points  to  transport  recruited  workers  from  that 

Despite  the  transportation  situation  at  this  point,  the  United  States  Employ- 
ment Office  reports  that  there  are  still  some  migratory  workers  traveling  about  in 
their  own  cars.  It  is  likely  that  this  traffic  will  seriously  decrease  as  the  tire  and 
gasoline  shortage  becomes  more  actue. 


Transportation  around  Ogden  is  causing  much  concern  to  the  employment 
office.     These  rates  are  high  and  services  are  not  extensive  enough. 


The  Utah  Council  of  Defense  has  voted  to  commandeer,  when  necessary,  all 
school  busses  in  Utah  for  the  transportation  of  the  emergency  agricultural  workers 
to  farming  areas.  The  busses  can  only  be  used  on  petition  of  representative 
groups  of  farmers  to  their  county  council  of  defense.  Groups  applying  must 
furnish  bonds  and  insurance  and  must  be  prepared  to  replace  any  worn  tires, 
tubes,  etc.  In  other  words,  busses  must  be  returned  in  the  same  condition  as 
they  were  received. 

Concern  has  been  expressed  by  sheep  shearers  in  Northern  Utah  because 
priorities  are  likely  to  affect  their  mode  of  transportation  to  and  from  shearing 


Farm  workers  with  families  are  in  some  reported  cases  unwilling  to  accept  offered 
jobs  because  of  a  lack  of  proper  housing  for  workers  with  families.  They  refuse 
to  commute  however  because  they  are  reluctant  to  use  their  own  tires. 


As  was  reported  for  Kansas,  the  inadequacy  of  housing  facilities  has  prevented 
the  hiring  of  farm  workers  with  families.  Heretofore,  many  farm  workers  have 
lived  in  towns  and  driven  back  and  forth  to  work.  Now  many  [of  these  workers 
do  not  have  cars  for  this  purpose. 

The  Holly  Sugar  Co.,  in  its  effort  to  recruit  workers  for  the  Western  Slope 
area  of  Colorado,  is  offering  to  pay  transportation  costs  of  beet-sugar  workers. 
Higher  fare  rates  and  a  lack  of  tires  is  causing  less  migration  to  this  area. 


"Due  to  the  fact  that  tire  rationing  is  so  comprehensive,  some  difficulty  is  being 
experienced  in  recruiting  farm  labor  in  the  more  remote  areas."  (In  the  northern 
half  of  the  State.) 


The  beet  growers  in  Midwestern  States  are  offering  beet  workers  in  Mexico 
traveling  fare  in  advance  of  their  arrival. 

Some  farmers  in  area  IV  have  made  the  statement  that  they  will  not  have  local 
workers  from  the  communities  as  they  have  in  the  past  and  have  insisted  that  these 
seasonal  workers  move  to  the  farms.  They  give  as  their  reason  the  curtailment 
of  tires  and  the  possible  rationing  of  gasoline.  The  average  seasonal  workers 
do  not  want  to  move  to  farms  at  any  price  but  prefer  to  remain  in  the  small 
communities  and  go  back  and  forth  to  cotton  chopping,  haying,  and  picking. 

A  report  of  the  labor  supply  officer  for  the  period  ending  March  31,  included  the 
statements,  "In  addition  to  the  labor  shortage,  transportation  and  housing  will 
be  factors  of  greater  importance  this  year  because  of  tire  rationing  and  its  effect 
on  migration  habits  and  practices  of  farm  workers." 

In  the  Longview  area,  there  is  little  evidence  of  transportation  being  offered 
farm  workers  by  Texas  growers  despite  the  offers  of  free  transportation  from 
northern  beet  growers. 

The  Brownsville  and  San  Antonio  areas  which  furnish  most  of  the  migratory 
labor  used  in  various  parts  of  Texas  for  peak  agricultural  seasons  report  tire 
shortages  will  hinder  the  migratory  movements  of  farm  workers  to  a  serious  extent 
this  year. 

The  minutes  of  the  fifteenth  meeting  of  the  Tenth  Regional  Labor  Supply  Com- 
mittee on  March  30,  1942,  included  that  policies  must  be  set  up  to  meet  problems 
of  transportation,  housing,  and  living  accommodations  which  have  become  factors 
this  year  because  of  the  rationing  and  subsequent  restrictions  on  habits  and 
practices  of  migratory  farm  crews. 

In  the  San  Antonio  area,  recruiting  agents  for  northern  beet  growers  are  supply- 
ing transportation  by  car  or  truck  to  beet  growers. 

In  the  McAllen-Brownsville  area  the  shortage  of  tires  for  trucks  will  have  an 
important  bearing  on  the  labor  supply  since,  in  this  area,  the  major  portion  of  the 
labor  supply  is  taken  to  the  fields  in  trucks  by  crew  leaders  who  own  the  trucks. 
The  trucks  then  are  used  to  haul  the  growers'  products  to  the  packing  sheds  of  the 
canneries.  Very  few  trucks  are  owned  by  the  grower.  It  is  estimated  that  35 
percent  of  the  trucks  now  in  operation  will  be  out  of  tires  by  May  and  the  remain- 
ing 65  percent  have  rubber  sufficiently  good  to  last  from  5  to  6  months  (report 
made  in  January).  Many  rationing  boards  are  granting  priorities  to  these  crew 
leaders.    However,  dealers'  stocks  in  truck  tires  are  insufficient  to  take  care  of  the 


present  demand  and  those  who  have  tires  good  enough  to  be  retreaded  are  not 
able  to  have  this  done,  due  to  curtailment  on  retread  stock.  If  this  condition 
continues  to  exist,  it  will  have  its  effect  on  the  out-migration  of  agricultural 
workers,  a  practice  followed  about  the  middle  of  August  by  a  large  percentage  of 
these  workers  after  the  cotton  season  ends. 

In  the  Abilene  district,  some  wool-warehouse  operators,  wool  merchants,  and 
sheep  and  goat  raiser  organizations  have  expressed  considerable  apprehension  lest 
there  be  a  shortage  of  shearing  crew  workers  due  to  Selective  Service,  war  industry, 
employment  inducement,  and  tire  and  tube  restrictions. 

The  Employment  Service  office  in  Texas  reports  that  exceptions  may  be  made 
in  the  tire  and  tube  restrictions  for  workers  using  trucks  in  essential  agricultural 
services,  such  as  lamb  shearing. 

At  Lindale,  it  is  felt  that  farm  labor  shortages  will  be  reduced  if  transportation 
is  offered  to  the  workers  by  the  growers. 

The  Employment  Service  office  reports  that  the  present  inability  to  secure  the 
replacements  for  automobiles  will  reduce  the  number  of  workers  capable  of  moving 
to  jobs  and  will  deter  farmers  in  transporting  city  workers  to  'and  from  the  job. 


The  curtailment  of  travel  by  private  automobile  is  already  straining  public 
carrier  facilities  and  the  availability  of  transportation  will  be  a  major  factor  in 
retaining  or  recruiting  workers. 

The  in-migration  of  agricultural  workers  is  considerably  below  that  of  normal 
years  and  the  normal  movement  of  workers  from  crop  to  crop  within  the  State 
will  be  curtailed  by  the  present  tire  shortage  and  possible  gasoline  rationing. 
Inadequate  transportation  facilities  will  undoubtedly  further  handicap  the 
efficient  utilization  of  available  workers,  particularly  in  the  San  Joaquin  and 
Sacramento  Valleys,  where  distances  are  great  and  the  jobs  far  from  the  labor 

For  the  month  of  January,  the  California  Employment  Service  survey  reports  a 
border  count  of  6,734  persons  entering  California  by  motor  vehicle  as  compared 
with  6,651  the  year  before.     These  were  in  parties  seeking  manual  work. 

The  Los  Angeles  County  area  reports  a  decreasing  flow  of  in-migration.  This 
is  believed  to  be  caused  largely  by  the  actual  or  anticipated  tire  shortage  which 
is  increasingly  immobilizing  pool  of  labor  which  normally  moves  freely  from  State 
to  State  and  area  to  area.  Out-migration  has  decreased  proportionately  partly 
because  of  the  tire  shortage — partly  because  of  work  opportunities  in  the  area. 

The  tire  shortage  is  affecting  the  availability  of  workers.  The  employment 
office  in  the  San  Joaquin  Valley  is  calling  the  attention  of  growers  to  the  probable 
necessity   of  furnishing  transportation  in  order  to  secure  cotton  choppers. 

In  San  Diego  County,  all  transportation  of  students  used  in  the  fields  will  be 
carried  on  by  school  busses. 

Dr.  Omar  Mills,  labor  relations  specialist  of  the  Farm  Security  Administration 
on  returning  from  a  tour  of  the  San  Joaquin  Valley,  said  that  lack  of  tires  had 
immobilized  automobiles  of  many  workers  living  at  model  Farm  Security  Ad- 
ministration camps.  In  March,  only  29  percent  of  the  available  man-days  of 
labor  represented  by  3,000  workers  in  camps  was  utilized. 

The  State  chamber  of  commerce  is  trying  to  obtain  special  bus  and  railroad 
rates  for  farm  workers.  State  Senator  Robert  Kenny,  chairman  of  the  investi- 
gating committee,  is  advocating  a  special  session  of  the  legislature  to  clear  up  the 
legality  of  the  proposed  use  of  school  busses  to  haul  these  workers. 

In  the  Tampa  area  the  general  picture  is  one  of  steadier  employment,  more 
days  a  week  because  of  a  better  coordination  of  activities.  Truckers  are  not 
handling  as  much  citrus  as  in  the  past  because  of  tire  shortages.  A  surplus  of  215 
citrus  workers  exists  in  Volusia  Count},  800  in  Orange  County,  and  200  in  Polk 

Migratory  labor  has  been  behind  schedule  all  season,  being  about  30  percent 
below  normal  at  present.  There  is  a  constant  movement  around  within  an  area. 
Recently  migrants  have  been  going  back  toward  Georgia,  sooner  than  expected, 
before  their  tires  wear  out. 

The  proposed  rationing  of  gasoline,  tire  shortages,  and  higher  wages  paid  by 
construction  projects  continued  to  be  the  prime  factor  adversely  influencing  the 
supply  of  agricultural  labor. 


Workers  are  still  leaving  the  area  to  get  to  the  North  prior  to  gas  rationing. 
This  out-migration  continues  in  spite  of  the  fact  that  1,000  workers  are  needed  for 
planting  and  cultivating  sugarcane  in  the  Lake  Okechobee  region  and  400  workers 
for  harvesting  tomatoes  and  celery  in  the  Palm  Beach  County  area. 

The  rationing  of  gasoline  causing  rapid  and  heavy  out-migration  to  points  in 
the  Northeastern  States;  the  lack  of  transportation  facilities;  the  reluctance  of 
workers  to  voluntarily  leave  their  quarters  to  relieve  shortage  areas;  the  attraction 
of  farm  labor  to  construction  jobs  for  higher  wages  characterized  the  agricultural 
labor  market  for  the  week  ending  May  13. 

The  West  Palm  Beach-Glades  area  reports  out-migration  of  approximately 
500  farm  hands  to  the  Northeastern  States,  despite  assurances  by  rationing  boards 
that  gasoline  would  be  available.  Fifty  passenger  carloads  were  counted  in 
Fort  Pierce  going  north.  Attempts  to  secure  canning  workers  from  Winter 
Haven  were  not  successful.  Fifty  workers  remained  on  a  few  days  because  of 
gasoline  rationing. 

The  citrus  harvest  is  approaching  closing  date  and  vegetables  are  tapering 
off.  Gasoline  rationing  slowed  out-migration  to  the  North  Atlantic  States  and 
lack  of  transportation  facilities  caused  a  slight  loss  of  the  cucumber  and  bean 
harvest  in  the  Tampa  area. 

Surplus  agricultural  labor  was  available  in  the  counties  near  Tampa  but 
could  not  be  brought  to  the  Ruskin  area  due  to  lack  of  transportation  and,  in 
addition,  there  is  no  available  housing  in  this  area. 

It  is  expected  that  busses  will  be  scheduled  to  Sebring  while  construction  is 
under  way  there.  These  same  busses,  it  is  planned,  will  operate  during  next 
season's  canning  activities  to  transport  labor  from  farms  and  small  communities 
within  a  radius  of  15  to  20  miles  of  the  canning  plant  in  Winter  Haven. 

There  appears  to  be  a  pool  of  355  employable  agricultural  workers  in  the 
migratory  labor  camps  at  Pompano.  The  problem  of  transportation  from  this 
point  appears  to  be  a  hold-up  in  putting  these  persons  to  work. 

There  appears  to  be  developing  in  the  Gainesville  area  a  scarcity  of  farm 
labor  due  to  poor  transportation  facilities,  and  lack  of  housing  as  well  as  a  low- 
wage  scale  for  farm  labor. 


To  meet  farm  labor  needs  in  the  Eastern  Shore  area,  all  available  help,  both 
local  and  migratory,  will  be  used.  The  farmers  have  agreed  to  cooperate  so 
that  workers  will  be  moved  from  one  farm  to  another  as  soon  as  possible.  Migra- 
tory labor  which  is  essential  to  a  successful  agricultural  season  in  this  area  may 
be  greatly  handicapped  by  transportation  which  now  will  be  affected  by  the 
rationing  of  tires  and  gasoline. 


It  is  felt  that  the  demands  for  labor  to  harvest  the  peach  crops  in  the  Spartan- 
burg local  areas  will  far  exceed  the  supply  on  acccount  of  the  diversion  of  the 
usual  labor  supply  on  defense  projects,  various  cotton  mills,  and  the  Army. 
There  are  practically  no  housing  facilities  to  take  care  of  transient  workers,  and 
the  shortage  of  gasoline  and  tires  will  prevent  workers  in  nearby  communities 
from  traveling  to  the  orchards. 


Strawberry  harvesting  has  been  in  progress  in  Hamilton,  Rhea,  Meigs,  and 
Bradley  Counties,  but  the  drought  cut  down  the  yield  considerably.  There 
were  some  local  shortages  of  pickers,  due  not  to  the  shortage  of  available  workers 
but  rather  to  inability  to  transport  workers  to  their  jobs. 

The  committee  will  recess  until  10  o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 
(Whereupon,   at   12   noon,   the  committee  recessed   until   Friday 
morning,  June  19,  1942,  at  10  o'clock.) 


FRIDAY,   JUNE   19,    1942 

morning  session 

Select  Committee  Investigating 

National  Defense  Migration, 

House  of  Representatives, 

Washington,  D.  C. 
The  committee  met  at  10:15  a.  m.,  in  room  313,  old  House  Office 
Building,  Hon.  John  H.  Tolan,  chairman,  presiding. 

Present:  Representatives  John  H.  Tolan  of  California,  chairman, 
and  Laurence  F.  Arnold  of  Illinois.. 

Also  present:  Dr.  Robert  K.  Lamb,  staff  director  of  the  committee; 
and  Congressmen  Pierce  and  Voorhis. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  please  come  to  order. 
Mr.  Lund,  you  will  be  the  first  witness. 

TON, D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Lund,  we  are  pleased  to  have  you  here  this 
morning.  This  transportation  problem  is  a  very  vital  one  in  our  war 
effort.  I  remember  your  testimony  in  Detroit,  and  I  think  you  also 
testified  here  in  Washington,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes;  I  did. 

The  Chairman.  We  have  a  few  questions. to  ask  you,  Mr.  Lund, 
but  before  we  get  to  those  questions,  I  would  like  to  have  you  indicate 
just  what  the  functions  and  responsibilities  of  your  Division  are  with 
respect  to  the  work  of  the  War  Production  Board. 

Mr.  Lund.  Very  briefly  stated,  Mr.  Chairman,  we  speak  of  our  job 
as  one  of  advancing  the  participation  of  labor  in  the  war-production 
effort;  that  is,  we  feel  that  in  this  Division,  our  job  is  to  serve  the 
people  of  the  United  States  in  their  war  effort  through  the  labor 

We  believe  that  labor  deserves  and  must  have  a  greater  opportunity 
to  contribute  its  ideas;  that  is,  you  might  call  it  its  mind  power  as 
well  as  its  brawn  and  skill,  to  the  war  and  the  war  effort.  We  have 
learned  through  our  war-production  drive  that  workers  throughout 
the  country  have  a  great  many  excellent  ideas  as  to  how  an  operation 
can  be  made  more  efficient  on  the  production  line  and  other  places  in 
the  plant. 

For  example,  an  instance  came  to  my  attention  just  yesterday  of  a 
worker  up  in  Milwaukee  who  had  made  a  suggestion  in  riveting,  which 
was  his  specialized  job,  so  that  they  could  use  two  hammers  at  the 



same  time  instead  of  only  one,  which  cut  the  time  in  half  on  that 
particular  process.  There  are  multitudinous  suggestions  of  that  kind 
that  labor  ought  to  have  an  opportunity  to  make. 


Now,  in  our  war-production  drive,  we  have  set  up  these  labor- 
management  committees  on  a  plant  level.  There  are  some  900  of 
these  committees  which  have  been  created  so  far,  and  we  are  anticipat- 
ing the  creation  of  perhaps  another  thousand  or  fifteen  hundred  of 

On  these  committees  are  represented  the  workers  and  management; 
they  meet  together  to  discuss  production  problems,  problems  'that 
affect  the  techniques  of  production  and  also  worker  morale.  It  is 
through  these  committees,  I  believe,  that  we  are  afforded  an  oppor- 
tunity to  do  something  about  transportation;  that  is,  if  we  can  work 
through  these  900  committees  and  another  1,000  or  1,500  of  them  or 
whatever  number  we  are  able  to  establish  over  the  country — — 

The  Chairman.  What  is  the  size  of  the  individual  committees? 

Mr.  Lund.  They  vary.  We  leave  that  largely  to  the  local  unions 
and  management  to  decide,  but  they  range  in  size  from  6  to  14  or  16 
members  in  some  cases,  depending  on  the  size  of  the  plant. 

So  the  main  part  of  our  job  is  in  connection  with  what  we  call,  in 
the  War  Production  Board,  the  war-production  drive.  We  have  other 
functions,  but  I  think  they  would  be  less  interesting  and  less  pertinent 
here  this  morning.  For  example,  we  have  a  shipbuilding  stabilization 
agreement  which  we  administer,  affecting  750,000  shipyard  workers, 
which  has  to  do  with  wages  and  working  conditions.  We  just  an- 
nounced yesterday  a  wage  stabilization  campaign  in  aircraft  which 
will  be  held  first  of  all  on  the  west  coast,  to  stabilize  wages  out  there, 
if  we  can,  in  the  aircraft  plants,  so  as  to  prevent  this  movement  of 
workers  from  aircraft  to  shipbuilding  or  to  something  else  where  wages 
are  higher,  sometimes  simply  because  they  are  not  equalized  within 
the  existing  range.  I  think  that  part  of  our  operation  would  be  very 
interesting  to  your  committee  because  it  has  a  connection  with  the 
migration  of  workers,  that  is,  in  reducing  the  migration  and  move- 
ment of  men  from  job  to  job  and  the  retraining  required  and  the  loss 
of  work.  So  I  feel  this  wage-stabilization  function  is  also  probably 
important  to  your  committee. 

The  Chairman.  Recent  studies  of  the  traveling  habits  of  workers 
in  some  California  war  plants  which  were  made  by  the  California 
Railroad  Commission,  showed  that  60  to  80  percent  of  the  workers 
travel  by  automobile.  From  your  experience  in  Michigan  do  you 
know  how  the  travel  habits  of  war  workers  there  compare  with  these 


Mr.  Lund.  We  have  the  same  situation  up  there.  I  think  the 
State  highway  department  made  a  survey  and  found  that  1  out  of  5 
workers  in  Detroit  lives  more  than  10  miles  from  the  factory  where  he 
is  employed,  and  that  an  estimated  75  percent  of  the  factory  workers 
in  Michigan  ride  to  their  work  in  cars.  They  live  too  far  from  their 
work  to  walk  or  to  go  by  any  other  means  of  transportation.  The 
State  Highway  Department  of  Michigan,  which  has  been  vitally  in- 











.      CH       DO,       .«f.„.N,SLEr0.O..E,S        "IK. 

1  .'  ■   1       EMPIOVED   IN         H       RIVER   ROUGE   <»d   DOWN   RIVER  INDUSTRY 


terested  in  this  war  transportation  problem,  made  this  survey  in  750 
plants  scattered  throughout  the  State.  It  was  a  very  fair  sample  of 
our  war  plants  in  Michigan.  About  half  of  the  war  workers  employed 
in  the  State  of  Michigan  were  employed  in  these  750  plants.  In  233 
plants,  90  percent  came  to  work  in  their  own  cars;  in  51  plants  there 
was  no  public  transportation  available;  they  all  came  to  work  in  their 
own  cars.  In  the  suburban  Detroit  area,  where  we  have  some  very 
important  work,  on  the  periphery  of  Detroit,  89  percent  of  the  workers 
are  dependent  on  automobiles  for  transportation. 

I  have  brought  with  me  a  map  which  I  think  may  be  very  interest- 
ing to  the  committee,  showing  3  main  concentration  areas  of  war 
production  in  Detroit,  and  the  dots  show  where  the  workers  live,  10 
workers  to  a  dot.     Will  you  please  hand  it  to  Congressman  Tolan? 

[Map  handed  to  the  chairman.     See  opposite  page.] 

This  map  shows  clearly  the  workers  live  some  distance  from  their 
jobs.  I  want  you  to  see  this  map  because  it  suggests  one  recom- 
mendation I  am  going  to  make  to  your  committee  which  I  think  might 
aid  in  solving  this  problem. 

You  have  mentioned  the  California  situation,  Mr.  Chairman,  and 
in  the  Los  Angeles  area  we  have  reports  showing  70  percent  of  our 
workers  in  the  Los  Angeles  area  ride  in  automobiles  to  work.  In  one 
key  aircraft  plant  out  there,  the  survey  showed  that  92  percent  of  the 
50,000  workers  employed  there,  rode  to  work  in  automobiles;  they  did 
not  use  public  transportation. 

Over  in  the  Glenn  Martin  plant  in  Baltimore,  the  president  re- 
ported that  40,000  of  the  42,500  workers  there  went  to  and  from  work 
in  automobiles. 

So  you  can  see  that  in  some  of  our  main  war  production  areas  the 
workers  live  a  considerable  distance  from  their  jobs  and  have  to  rely 
almost  completely  on  private  transportation. 

The  Chairman.  We  can  readily  see  what  a  problem  that  will  be 
when  the  rubber  wears  out. 

Mr.  Lund.  That  is  right.  I  think  we  can  say  our  whole  factory 
program,  as  far  as  manpower  is  concerned,  rides  on  the  tires  of  our 
workers  today. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  think  the  rail  facilities  will  be  able  to  take 
up  that  load? 

Mr.  Lund.  I  am  positive  it  cannot  be  done  in  the  Detroit  area,  but 
I  speak  with  far  less  knowledge  of  other  areas.  However,  my  offhand 
guess  would  be  that  the  rail  facilities  could  not  possibly  absorb  that 

The  Chairman.  Of  course,  you  have  the  freezmg  order  of  the  War 
Production  Board  on  rails. 

Mr.  Lund.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  I  am  amazed  at  the  high  percentage  of  workers 
going  to  their  work  in  their  own  cars. 

Mr.  Lund.  The  figures  are  astonishing. 

The  Chairman.  Yes.  Throughout  the  country  would  you  care  to 
hazard  a  rate  of  percentage — would  it  go  as  high  as  75  percent,  do 
you  think,  in  war  industries? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes;  in  war  industries;  possibly  one  should  say  in 
centers  of  population  of  more  than  50,000,  I  would  say  70  percent 
would  be  a  safe  percentage. 


What  would  you  think  about  that,  Mr.  Veenstra;  would  you  think 
that  would  be  a  safe  percentage  in  communities  of  over  50,000  in 
war  plants? 

Mr.  Veenstra.  That  might  be  a  little  high.  The  Gallup  poll  found 
about  50  percent. 

Mr.  Lund.  My  thought  is,  in  the  larger  communities  you  would 
be  more  likely  to  find  them  using  cars.  The  maps  show  the  back 
travel.  People  who  work  for  Ford  at  Dearborn,  many  of  them  come 
from  near  the  Chrysler  plant  or  the  Connors  Creek-Mack  area. 
Later  on  I  would  like  to  make  a  suggestion  which  I  think  may  help 
to  solve  this  problem,  and  it  is  indicated  by  what  the  map  shows. 

The  Chairman.  While  you  have  it  in  mind,  I  think  you  had  better 
do  it  now. 


Mr.  Lund.  It  seems  to  me  an  effort  should  be  made  in  hiring  these 
workers,  to  hire  men  who  live  close  to  their  jobs,  and  if  the  situation 
becomes  critical  enough,  the  management  and  the  union — I  am  think- 
ing in  terms  of  Detroit — management  and  labor  working  through  the 
management  labor  committee,  which  is  a  very  democratic  vehicle, 
could  adjust  this  thing  so  that  plants  might  swap  workers  in  order 
that  fellows  who  are  doing  the  same  work  essentially  for  Chrylser 
and  who  live  down  in  the  Dearborn  area,  would  be  moved  oyer  to  do 
that  work  for  Ford  and  vice  versa.  All  of  this  cross  travel,  it  seems 
to  me,  represents  a  terrific  waste  of  rubber. 

The  Chairman.  In  other  words,  workers  who  are  doing  similar 
work  close  to  the  Ford  plant  should  not  be  running  all  the  way  down 
to  the  Chrysler  plant. 

Mr.  Lund.  If  they  live  near  the  Ford  plant  and  can  work  there,  it 
seems  to  me  they  ought  to  work  there. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Workers  might  even  have  to  swap  houses. 

Mr.  Lund.  That  is  being  done  now  in  California,  Mr.  Congressman. 
However,  I  should  prefer  this  other  thing,  swapping  jobs,  to  swapping 
houses.  You  can  freeze  seniority  on  an  equitable  basis.  If  it  is  an 
advantageous  trading  proposition,  it  does  not  seem  to  me  Chrysler 
and  Ford  would  refuse  to  guarantee  seniority. 

The  Chairman.  A  recent  survey  made  by  the  Railroad  Commission 
of  California  indicates  that  40  percent  of  the  rubber  will  be  gone  in 
6  months,  75  percent  in  a  year,  and  85  percent  in  18  months.  It  is 
quite  an  exhaustive  survey,  and  in  fact  the  only  one  I  know  of.  That 
indicates  an  alarming  situation. 

Mr.  Arnold.  You  mean  the  rubber  on  cars? 

The  Chairman.  Yes;  the  cars  they  are  using  now. 

What  are  the  responsibilities  of  the  Labor  Production  Division  in 
the  matter  of  insuring  adequate  transportation  facilities  for  war 
workers,  Mr.  Lund? 

Mr.  Lund.  Well,  Congressman,  I  would  say  our  responsibility 
grows  out  of  our  realization  that  this  war  is  conducted  with  materials 
and  machines  and  men,  and  men  must  be  got  to  their  jobs,  and  that 
production  is  dependent  on  the  daily  transportation  of  workers.  Our 
job,  then,  is  to  represent  that  point  of  view  as  strongly  as  we  can. 
Workers  feel  it,  and  it  is  our  job  to  tell  committees  like  this  how  they 
feel  about  this  thing;  also,  where  there  is  not  as  much  appreciation  of 
the  seriousness  of  the  problem  as  there  might  be,  to  get  that  idea  and 
full  appreciation  of  it  over  to  certain  groups  of  workers. 



So  far  as  an  action  program  is  concerned  with  workers,  we  will  con- 
tinue to  use  our  labor-management  committees  in  working  out  share- 
the-ride  programs.  I  think  those  programs  have  great  possibilities 
when  it  comes  to  rationing  of  the  tires  we  have  left.  I  think  the  work- 
ers would  be  a  lot  more  exacting  on  themselves  than  the  Government 
could  be.  I  am  thinking  of  the  allocation  of  the  tires  we  have  when 
the  workers'  tires  wear  out.  I  would  like  to  see  this  thing  set  up  so 
that  the  labor-management  committees  would  have  a  good  deal  to 
say  about  which  workers  will  get  the  tires.  They  could  set  up  a  list 
of  requirements,  including  one  that  they  could  not  get  tires  unless 
they  filled  their  cars;  that  the  worker  took  men  to  work  with  him. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  labor  committees 
have  approached  the  rubber  problem  at  all? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes;  in  a  good  many  plants,  by  working  out  share-the- 
ride  programs. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  say  there  were  about  900  of  these  com- 
mittees in  the  United  States? 

Mr.  Lund.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  any  clearing  house  between  them,  a 
central  head? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes.  Here  in  Washington  we  have  the  war  production 
drive  headquarters.  Then  we  make  it  a  point  in  our  division  to  get 
these  ideas  and  plans  for  share-the-ride  programs  which  are  working 
out  in  one  plant  successfully,  to  other  plants  and  other  unions, 
because  our  approach  to  interpreting  the  needs  of  the  war  program — 
in  doing  that  we  use  not  only  the  labor-management  committees  but 
the  union  groups  through  the  country. 

The  Chairman.  Are  there  any  figures  available  as  to  the  number 
of  war  workers  in  the  United  States  in  all  the  war  plants — shipbuilding 
and  everything  connected  with  the  war  program? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes;  I  think  there  are.  Let  me  see,  what  is  that  figure? 
It  is  9,000,000  at  the  present  time  and  it  is  expected  to  be  20,000,000 
at  the  end  of  next  year.  Those  are  the  figures  just  given  to  me;  I 
thought  it  was  a  little  higher  than  9,000,000. 

The  Chairman.  Nine  million  now? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes;  and  20,000,000  by  the  end  of  next  year. 

The  Chairman.  That  is,  at  the  end  of  1943? 

Mr.  Lund.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Lund,  to  what  extent  are  workers  doubling  up 
in  cars? 

Mr.  Lund.  They  are  doing  a  lot  of  it  out  in  Detroit  and  in  that 
area,  but  not  nearly  enough  of  it.  You  know  about  the  Pontiac 
Plan,  do  you? 

Mr.  Arnold.  No. 

Mr.  Lund.  That  plan  was  worked  out  in  Pontiac  and  was  initiated 
by  the  highway  department.  It  had  two  essential  features:  First, 
the  staggering  of  the  traffic  load  by  staggering  the  hours  of  workers 
in  the  business  district  and  also  in  the  plants,  and,  second,  the  share- 
the-ride  feature.  They  found  they  could  step  up  very  considerably 
this  share-the-ride  thing.  In  fact,  I  have  a  figure  on  it  here.  Before 
they  instituted  the  Pontiac  plan  in  Michigan  there  were  1.3  riders  per 


car,  which  is  pretty  low,  and  after  they  instituted  it  there  were  2 
riders  per  car.  So,  something  has  been  accomplished,  but  I  am  con- 
vinced a  lot  more  could  be  done.  I  should  think  it  ought  to  be  up 
around  3  or  3.5  as  an  average. 


Mr.  Arnold.  Do  you  have  any  specific  evidence  that  the  lack  of 
motor  facilities  occasioned  by  tire  and  gasoline  shortages  is  inter- 
fering with  war-production  schedules?  You  mentioned  Baltimore, 
and  a  Member  of  the  congressional  delegation  from  Maryland  recently 
complained,  I  believe,  that  the  inability  of  workers  to  maintain 
regular  transportation  facilities  was  having  a  directly  adverse  effect 
upon  war  production  schedules.  It  was  suggested,  for  example,  that 
gas  rationing  cards  were  virtually  useless  in  some  areas  because  the 
dealers  had  insufficient  stocks.  Have  you  any  specific  evidence  that 
it  is  interfering  with  war  production? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes;  in  this  manner,  Congressman:  It  has  caused  a  very 
high  turnover  in  manpower,  the  labor  supply  of  certain  plants,  which 
would  certainly  interfere  with  production  schedules.  Two  cases  come 
to  mind,  one  out  in  Ravenna,  Ohio,  where  a  disproportionately  high 
percentage  of  men  left  after  a  period  of  3  months,  and  when  a  study 
was  made  it  was  found  they  had  left  because  of  transportation  difficul- 
ties. Some  had  used  the  tires  on  their  cars  and  others  wanted  to  keep 
what  they  had  because  they  felt  they  would  have  to  use  the  cars  for 
a  long  time  to  come. 

In  Vallejo,  Calif.,  there  was  a  turnover  of  3,000  men  in  a  plant  out 
there  in  a  relatively  short  period  of  time.  A  study  was  made  of  that 
and  it  was  found  the  turn-over  was  produced  by  transportation 
difficulties,  part  of  which  was  the  rubber  shortage.  So  that  has 
certainly  affected  war  production. 

The  Chairman.  The  reason  for  that,  Mr.  Lund,  is  that  Vallejo 
itself  is  not  a  very  large  city  and  some  of  the  workers  have  a  long 
distance  to  come  from  Oakland  and  other  places.  I  guess  that  is 
why  they  are  hit  so  hard. 

Mr.  Lund.  That  is  in  the  East  Bay  area  up  near  San  Francisco? 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Of  course,  these  men  have  to  work,  and  they  get  jobs 
where  the  transportation  facilities  are  different,  or  where  the  trans- 
portation distance  is  shorter. 

Mr.  Lund.  Obviously,  it  hits  war  production  because  you  have  to 
train  a  new  group  when  they  leave,  and  that  retraining  holds  up 
production.  Furthermore,  if  a  plant  is  sufficiently  isolated,  I  think 
it  will  be  increasingly  difficulty  to  get  any  men  at  all  when  the  rubber 
shortage  becomes  more  acute,  unless  we  build  houses  there,  and  you 
know  that  requires  the  use  of  critical  materials  that  are  not  easily 

Mr.  Arnold.  As  to  the  rubber  or  gasoline  shortage,  do  you  know 
whether  that  caused  any  change  in  it? 

Mr.  Lund.  No;  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Arnold.  I  guess  this  report  emanates  from  the  statement  by 
Glenn  Martin. 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes. 


Mr.  Arnold.  I  was  wondering  what  the  situation  is  at  the  Willow 
Run  plant  with  reference  to  transportation.  Is  there  any  method 
being  adopted  besides  private  automobiles? 

Mr.  Lund.  Some  new  bus  routes  have  been  established,  I  under- 
stand. That  is  going  to  be  a  very  critical  situation.  Part  of  the 
solution — let  me  say,  transportation  will  be  only  part  of  the  solution. 
There  will  have  to  be  some  housing  there  too,  although  such  housing 
as  there  is  will  have  to  be  for  workers  who  come  from  some  distance, 
not  only  30  or  40  miles,  but  hundreds  of  miles.  There  is  not  critical 
material  enough  to  build  houses  for  people  who  live  in  Detroit  because 
they  are  going  to  work  at  Willow  Run ;  they  will  have  to  get  there  by 
using  busses  and  their  own  cars,  and  that  will  be  a  very  serious  problem 
as  time  goes  on. 

Mr.  Arnold.  One  of  the  most  serious  in  the  country. 

Mr.  Lund.  Without  a  doubt. 


Mr.  Arnold.  Do  you  think  it  may  become  necessary  to  ration 
housing  so  that  war  workers  can  live  within  working  distance  of  war 
plants,  and  will  this  involve  the  displacement  of  persons  not  engaged 
in  essential  war  work? 

Mr.  Lund.  I  should  be  opposed  to  that  except  as  a  last  resort. 
I  think  one  of  the  dearest  things  to  the  heart  of  most  people  is  the 
home  they  live  in.  I  would  much  rather  ration  other  things;  I  would 
much  rather  take  private  passenger  automobiles  that  are  not  needed, 
or  do  anything  else,  than  ration  houses,  although  I  can  see  a  very 
considerable  possibilit}^  of  swapping  houses  on  a  voluntary  basis,  but 
rationing  involves  something  else.  If  you  tell  folks  to  move  out  to 
make  the  house  available  for  someone  else — I  should  be  opposed  to 
that  except  as  a  last  resort,  although  I  would  be  in  favor  of  encouraging 
the  voluntary  swapping  of  houses.  There  again  it  seems  to  me  this 
thing  of  swapping  workers  has  far  greater  possibilities,  although 
I  recognize  that  there,  too,  there  are  certain  obstacles  in  the  way. 

The  Chairman.  Has  anything  been  done  on  that  situation? 

Mr.  Lund.  Nothing  that  I  know  about.  Mr.  Veenstra  tells  me 
some  of  the  aircraft  plants  in  Los  Angeles  are  trying  it,  but  I  do  not 
know  about  that.  There  would  have  to  be  a  lot  of  participation  on 
the  part  of  labor  and  management  in  that  sort  of  program  and  it 
seems  to  me  that  is  the  key  to  success  in  our  war  effort  when  it  comes 
to  the  main  aspects  and  also  these  collateral  things  that  are  also  im- 
portant, giving  labor  a  voice  and  having  them  participate  in  the 
planning  of  any  of  this  swapping  of  workers.  I  think  you  will  find 
they  would  go  along  with  it  far  better  than  if  some  Government  agency, 
let  us  say,  were  to  take  the  thing  and  do  it.  I  happen  to  be  a  member 
of  the  War  Manpower  Commission  and  I  can  say,  although  the  Com- 
mission may  favor  such  a  policy  and  the  Employment  Service  might 
aid  in  working  it  out  between  labor  and  management,  that  the  voice  of 
labor  and  management  ought  to  be  controlling  in  that  picture. 

Mr.  Arnold.  To  what  extent  does  the  problem  of  transportation 
facilities  enter  into  the  determination  of  new  war-plant  sites? 

Mr.  Lund.  I  understand,  very  considerably.  We  have  a  War  Plant 
Sites  Board  and  they  formerly  considered  the  labor  supply  within  the 
driving  area  of  the  plant,  and  now,  because  of  the  increasing  shortage  of 


rubber,  they  are  considering  the  labor  supply  within  the  railroad -com- 
muting area  of  the  plant.  On  that  Board  there  is  a  representative  of 
the  Office  of  Defense  Transportation.  It  is  being  taken  into  account 
in  planning  the  location  of  plants,  but  greater  emphasis  is  being  placed 
on  railroad  transportation  and  its  availability. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Does  this  problem  of  transportation  facilities  also 
enter  into  the  question  of  where  civilian  production  is  to  be  centered? 

Mr.  Lund.  I  do  not  believe  so ;  at  least,  not  to  any  great  extent  as 
yet.  The  major  factor  in  deciding  where  civilian  production  is  to  be 
centered  is  the  nonconvertibility  of  certain  plants  and  the  availability 
of  labor  supply.  I  suppose  from  that  point  of  view  transportation 
would  be  considered,  but  I  think  less  emphasis  is  being  given  to  that 
in  the  location  of  war  plants. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Does  your  Division  have  any  further  recommenda- 
tions as  to  what  should  be  done  for  the  alleviation  of  transportation 


Mr.  Lund.  First  of  all,  we  must  consider  our  existing  transporta- 
tion equipment,  particularly  the  existing  supply  of  rubber. 

In  the  second  place,  we  must  allocate  the  existing  supply  of  equip- 
ment and  rubber  to  uses  essential  to  the  prosecution  of  the  war. 

Third,  we  must  plan  every  phase  of  the  war  program  involving 
passenger  transportation  in  such  a  way  as  not  to  add  needlessly  to 
the  transportation  problem. 

To  promote  conservation  it  seems  to  me  there  is  urgently  needed  a 
plan  of  rationing  mileage  of  private  automobiles  which  would  limit 
their  use  to  essential  driving.  In  defining  essential  driving,  due 
allowance  should  be  made  for  a  limited  amount  of  convenience  and 
recreational  driving.  I  would  make  an  allowance  for  that  because  it 
is  desirable  for  the  maintenance  of  the  health,  morale,  and  efficiency 
of  the  worker,  which  is  part  of  the  war-production  effort. 

I  realize  it  is  difficult  to  devise  a  fair  system.  I  do  not  have  the 
fear  of  public  reaction  which  seems  to  possess  some  persons,  provided 
the  right  sort  of  educational  program  were  set  up  to  put  this  thing 
over.  I  believe  once  the  American  people  understand  the  necessities 
of  the  situation  and  are  fully  informed  as  to  how  the  system  will 
operate,  their  cooperation  will  be  forthcoming,  particularly  if  they  are 
made  part  of  the  operating  machinery,  that  is,  on  the  plant  level.  I 
would  suggest  these  labor-management  committees  be  brought  into 
the  picture.  Then  I  would  suggest  that  these  committees  be  assigned 
the  function  of  organizing  car  clubs  and  swap-car  arrangements,  and 
that  when  automotive  equipment,  be  it  cars,  new  tires,  retreads,  gaso- 
line, or  parts,  is  to  be  rationed  to  a  worker,  the  committee,  or  a  desig- 
nated representative,  certify  the  need  for  the  particular  rationed  article. 

I  suggest  further  that  our  existing  rationing  boards  should  be  made 
representative  of  the  major  groups  in  the  community.  I  am  thinking 
there  particularly  of  labor. 

Then  I  think  we  must  reexamine  our  common  carrier  use  of  trans- 
portation equipment  to  eliminate  wasteful  duplication  and  such  trans- 
portation as  may  be  regarded  as  nonessential  in  this  war  emergency. 
I  think  a  whole  lot  more  can  be  done  along  that  line.  The  essential 
transportation  job  which  must  be  done  is  so  big  that  every  piece  of 
equipment  must  be  operated  to  capacity  on  necessary  runs.     It  also 


requires  that  the  operating  personnel  be  used  efficiently.  Then  there 
must  be  staggering  of  working,  shopping,  and  school  hours,  which  is 
one  of  the  features  of  the  so-called  Pontiac  plan.  In  fact,  it  seems  to 
me  we  should  have  that  staggering  in  every  community;  I  think  we 
could  have  it  in  every  community  to  great  advantage. 

Transportation  coordinators  must  be  appointed  to  stimulate,  re- 
view, and  implement  local  transportation  plans;  it  must  be  done  on  a 
national  basis. 

I  think  that  is  about  all  I  have  to  say,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  There  are  thousands  of  school  busses  in  this  coun- 
try that  for  2  or  3  months  during  the  summer  are  laid  up  and  the 
rubber  is  depreciating;  do  you  think  there  is  any  possibility  of  using 
those  school  busses? 

Mr.  Lund.  I  should  certainly  think  so.  Yes;  I  should  think  not 
only  during  the  summertime  but  also  during  the  winter,  Congressman, 
they  might  be  able  to  stagger  the  hours.  The  men  go  to  work  for  the 
day  shift  earlier  than  the  youngsters  go  to  school.  However,  I  pre- 
sume the  largest  portion  of  the  school  busses  are  used  in  rural  areas 
where  you  are  not  so  likely  to  find  war  plants,  but  wherever  there  are 
busses  in  a  community  where  there  are  war  plants,  it  seems  to  me  they 
should  be  used. 


Dr.  Lamb.  Mr.  Lund,  it  would  seem  to  me  the  first  step  would  be 
the  question  of  traffic  coordination.  If  the  situation  is  as  serious  as 
you  indicate — and  I  am  sure  it  is  at  least  as  serious  as  that — it  might 
be  a  good  idea  to  start  off  with  such  traffic  coordinators  and  give  them 
a  good  deal  more  complete  powers  than  are  suggested  in  what  you  have 
said.  The  situation  would  appear  to  have  gotten  beyond  the  volun- 
tary stage  already,  and  consequently,  if  they  are  given  these  more 
complete  powers,  the  work  of  your  labor-management  committees 
becomes  that  much  more  necessary  as  a  means  of  conducting  the  office 
of  the  traffic  coordinator  democratically,  particularly  since  the  biggest 
single  stake  we  have  in  transportation  is  in  war  production.  In  other 
words,  if  a  traffic  coordinator  is  appointed  he  ought  to  start  with  the 
problem  of  providing  transportation  to  the  war  plants.  Do  you 
agree  with  that? 

Mr.  Lund.  I  would  agree  with  that  thoroughly. 

Dr.  Lamb.  It  seems  to  me  if  the  plan  which  included  mapping  the 
transportation  of  workers  in  plants  and  the  possibilities  of  alternative 
means  of  transportation  for  them  failed,  then  possibly,  as  a  last  resort 
the  actual  switching  of  workers  from  plant  to  plant  or  from  house  to 
house  might  be  invoked.  In  that  case  you  would  first  need  a  much 
more  complete  survey.  It  might  take  the  form  of  a  semicompulsory 
agreement,  possibly  by  the  signing  of  a  pledge  by  each  worker  that  he 
will  submit  to  whatever  form  of  transportation  is  worked  out  between 
him  and  your  labor-management  committees,  with  other  units  of  trans- 
portation taking  second  place  behind  the  arrangement  for  this  particu- 
lar problem.     Would  that  seem  to  you  to  correspond  to  reality  here? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes;  I  think  it  is  a  proper,  practical  approach  to  it.  I 
think  you  could  have  some  sanctions,  and  a  fellow  would  make  a 
pledge — he  would  not  get  new  tires  or  gasoline  unless  he  lives  up  to  the 
pledge — not  only  to  do  no  unnecessary  driving — that  would  be  difficult 
to  police — but  also  to  drive  a  certain  number  of  men  to  work  each  day 


or  enter  into  some  sort  of  share-the-ride  agreement  with  other  workers. 
I  like  your  idea  of  having  the  coordinator  on  a  community  level  with 
a  good  deal  of  authority,  and  having  as  much  participation  by  the 
people  affected  as  possible. 

Dr.  Lamb.  It  seems  to  me  we  have  to  look  upon  this -immediately 
as  an  irreplaceable  supply  rather  than  something  we  can  take  care  of 
in  a  year  and  a  half  or  so ;  we  should  not  look  upon  the  prospect  around 
the  corner  as  being  anything  but  a  mirage  at  the  present  time,  and  then 
if  it  turns  out  the  other  way,  we  are  that  far  ahead  of  the  game. 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes. 

Dr.  Lamb.  What  is  the  distance  to  Willow  Run  from  downtown 

Mr.  Lund.  I  think  it  is  29  or  30  miles  from  downtown  Detroit. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Which  means  a  round  trip  of  60  miles? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Which  means  in  the  course  of  a  year,  sixteen  or  eighteen 
thousand  miles  of  rubber  and  that  much  gas.  Of  course,  at  the 
present  time,  gas  is  not  a  problem  in  the  Michigan  area,  but  rubber 
supply  and  transportation  are.  So  that  very  shortly  the  tires  on  the 
average  car  would  be  gone  in  carrying  them  to  Willow  Run.  In  a 
couple  of  years  they  would  certainly  be  all  through. 


Mr.  Lund.  I  am  told  that  at  the  arsenal  at  Berwick,  4,000  men 
are  driving  from  50  to  130,  miles  a  day. 

Dr.  Lamb.  How  many  men  would  be  employed  at  the  peak  at 
Willow  Run;  would  it  be  sixty  or  seventy-five  thousand? 

Mr.  Lund.  I  think  60,000  is  conservative.  I  have  heard  figures  as 
high  as  90  and  as  low  as  45  to  50,  but  I  think  sixty  to  seventy-five 
thousand  would  be  a  good  figure. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Public  transportation  will  take  care  of  how  many; 
would  it  be  half  of  that? 

Mr.  Lund.  I  would  say  a  good  deal  less  than  half  of  either  present 
or  prospective  public  transportation.  I  cannot  see  it  taking  care  of 
more  than  25  or  30  percent. 

Dr.  Lamb.  So,  even  on  the  basis  of  4  men  to  the  car,  you  will  have 
10,000  cars  used  in  that  particular  job  every  day  in  the  week? 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes,  I  would  think  so. 

Dr.  Lamb.  That  is  the  order  of  the  magnitude  of  the  problems  you 
are  going  to  find  in  many  places  in  the  country,  and  that  is  why  some 
arbitrary  intervention  in  this  thing  should  be  taken  pretty  quickly. 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes. 

Dr.  Lamb.  What  about  the  question  of  smaller  communities  and 
their  contribution  to  the  war  effort;  will  this  not  intensify  the  demand 
of  smaller  communities  and  smaller  businesses  for  sharing  in  the  war 
because  they  have  the  locations  which  are  favorable  to  walking  to 
work  or  short-run  transportation  jobs? 

Mr.  Lund.  It  would  doubtless  be  a  factor,  Dr.  Lamb.  You  know, 
of  course,  the  Small  War  Plants  Corporation  is  going  to  be  set  up  in 
the  W.  P.  B.,  and  it  seems  to  me  this  may  be  an  additional  argument 
for  giving  them  more  war  work  because  of  availability  of  their  labor 
supply,  that  is,  the  shortness  of  the  distance  between  their  homes  and 
the  plant. 


Dr.  Lamb.  Is  there  not  a  reverse  problem  which  is  rapidly  develop- 
ing? You  used  9,000,000,  which  is  approximately  correct,  as  the 
number  engaged  in  war  work  at  the  present  time,  and  20,000,000  as  the 
figure  at  the  end  of  1943,  which  may  be  low;  that  means  an  increase 
in  the  number  now  working  and  probably  considerably  more  added 
on.  If  that  is  the  case,  you  are  in  for  quite  a  floodage  in  these  com- 
munities, and  any  plan  your  traffic  coordinator  may  make  in  Detroit 
today  will  have  to  be  accordion-pleated  to  take  care  of  the  future,  and 
the  same  thing  applies  all  around  the  country,  particularly  in  these 
areas  of  heavy  concentration  of  contracts.  So,  you  will  increase  your 
troubles  in  many  of  those  places  by  actual  geometric  proportion  rather 
than  arithmetically,  when  you  begin  to  pile  them  onto  the  trans- 
portation facilities,  which  would  seem  to  be  an  argument  for  favoring 
the  smaller  war  plant  corporation  type  of  solution. 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  I  have  just  one  more  question,  Mr.  Lund.  Mr. 
Eastman  is  here.  Has  the  thought  ever  been  explored  of  asking  for 
volunteers  in  old  private  passenger  cars  to  volunteer  their  services  to 
take  workers  to  plants? 

Mr.  Lund.  Not  in  the  area  I  am  most  familiar  with,  Congressman. 
I  do  not  believe  it  has  been  thought  of  or  tried  in  Detroit  or  in  any  of 
our  Michigan  industrial  areas. 

The  Chairman.  It  is  the  first  time  it  has  occurred  to  me.  I  was 
trying  to  think  along  with  you.  I  have  that  much  faith  in  the 
American  people  that  there  would  be  a  considerable  number,  living 
close  to  the  war  production  plants,  who  would  get  out  their  cars  in 
the  morning  and  also  take  them  back  at  night. 

Mr.  Lund.  I  think  it  is  a  case  of  less  shortage  of  cars  than  tires. 
Some  folks  might  be  willing  to  give  up  their  tires;  I  don't  know. 
When  they  are  not  hauling  the  war  workers  they  could  have  the  use 
of  their  own  cars.  Yes;  I  would  say  that  has  real  possibilities,  Mr. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Has  a  survey  been  made  to  ascertain  those  who  are 
willing  to  sell  their  cars  to  war  workers? 

Mr.  Lund.  No;  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Of  course  there  are  a  large  number  of  people,  especially 
in  the  rationed  East,  who  would  sell  their  large  gas-eating  cars  which 
perhaps  have  good  tires. 

Mr.  Lund.  The  tires  may  be  more  valuable  than  the  car. 

Mr.  Arnold.  I  know  several  people  here  in  Washington  who  have 
expressed  to  me  their  desire  to  sell. 

Mr.  Lund.  I  should  think  in  some  of  those  cases  it  might  be  a  good 
idea  to  take  the  tires  and  forget  about  the  car.  It  seems  to  me  they 
would  have  to  be  approached  on  a  community  level,  and  that  is 
where  the  coordinator  would  be  very  useful. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Large  cars  with  large  tires — there  should  be  some 
way  devised  to  take  those  over  for  bus  transportation;  some  of  them 
will  haul  six  or  seven  or  eight  passengers. 

The  Chairman.  We  thank  you,  Mr.  Lund.  Will  you  leave  the 

Mr.  Lund.  Yes;  and  also  a  copy  of  a  statement  I  have  here. 

60396— 12— pt. 


(The  afore-mentioned  statement  follows:) 


The  Problem  of  Wau  Worker  Transportation 

As  Director  of  the  Labor  Production  Division  of  the  War  Production  Board,  I 
consider  it  my  responsibility  to  point  out  one  of  the  most  serious  problems  of  the 
war  production  program.  As  vital  as  the  supply  of  raw  materials  for  the  tanks  and 
planes  and  guns  and  ships  is  the  supply  of  war  workers.  To  a  much  larger  degree 
than  most  people  realize,  production  is  dependent  upon  the  daily  transportation 
of  workers,  much  of  which  is  by  private  automobile.  Our  victory  program  rides 
on  the  tires  of  the  workers.  If  for  any  leason  the  automobiles  and  busses  and 
trolley  cars  which  carry  workers  to  the  factories  daily  should  cease  to  operate,  this 
would  be  a  fatal  blow  to  our  victory  program. 

Your  committee  is  concerned  with  the  migration  of  war  workers  and  the  various 
problems  of  congestion  created  as  a  result.  However,  the  migration  we  have  seen 
so  far  will  be  nothing  compared  to  that  which  will  follow  a  break-down  in  worker 
transportation.  At  the  present  time  workers  are  commuting  from  their  homes 
to  war  production  centers  20  to  30  miles  distant,  and  in  many  cases  50  to  60  miles. 
Practically  all  these  workers  are  riding  in  privately  owned  automobiles.  If  their 
automobiles  are  not  kept  running,  these  workers  will  have  only  two  alternatives; 
namely,  make  their  homes  near  their  jobs,  or  find  jobs  near  their  homes.  Either 
alternative  is  undesirable  from  the  standpoint  of  war  production.  The  first 
requires  the  use  of  critical  materials  in  the  construction  of  houses  and  community 
facilities;  the  second  creates  costly  labor  turn-over. 

Before  taking  up  the  subject  assigned  me,  I  should  like  to  say  a  few  words  about 
the  Labor  Production  Division  of  the  War  Production  Board.  It  is  founded  on 
two  premises:  (1)  that  the  implements  of  war  cannot  be  turned  out  without  full 
and  intelligent  utilization  of  our  democratic  labor  force;  (2)  that  labor  participa- 
tion in  the  design  and  management  of  the  war  production  program  is  essential  to 
maximum  production.  The  Labor  Production  Division  is  going  to  do  everything 
possible  to  insure  labor's  participation  in  the  war-production  program,  and  to 
interpret  the  problems  of  the  war-oroduction  program  to  labor  groups. 

I  wish  to  discuss  the  subject  of  worker  transportation  under  four  headings: 
(1)  Dependence  of  war  workers  on  private  automobiles  (2)  results  of  a  break-down 
in  worker  transportation;  (3)  lack  of  an  effective  program  to  solve  the  problem; 
(4)  recommended  program  for  dealing  with  the  problem  of  war  worker  trans- 

dependence  of  war  workers  on  private  automobiles 

In  Michigan  we  recognized  early  what  war  in  the  Pacific  and  the  loss  of  Singa- 
pore and  the  East  Indies  meant  in  our  daily  lives.  Detroit,  which  is  fast  becoming 
a  vast  arsenal  of  war  production,  is  almost  completely  dependent  upon  the  private 
passenger  automobile  for  the  transportation  of  its  workers.  One  out  of  every 
five  workers  in  Detroit  lives  more  than  10  miles  from  the  factory  where  he  is 
employed;  and  75  percent  of  all  the  factory  workers  come  to  work  in  their  cars. 
If  you  will  run  over  in  your  mind  the  bomber  plants,  the  tank  plants,  and  the  other 
great  factories  in  the  Detroit  area,  you  can  well  imagine  the  catastrophe  to  war 
production  which  would  result  if  a  new  way  had  to  be  found  for  transporting 
three-quarters  of  the  fighters  on  the  production  front. 

In  order  to  find  a  basis  for  keeping  production  rolling,  the  Michigan  State 
Highway  Department  initiated  a  traffic  survey  as  early  as  January  12  of  this  year. 
This  survey  covered  750  plants  engaged  in,  or  being  converted  to,  war  production. 
These  plants  employed  at  the  time  just  over  half  of  the  850,000  industrial  workers 
employed  in  the  entire  State  of  Michigan.  The  survey  sought  to  determine  the 
extent  to  which  the  automobile  revolution  of  the  last  25  years  has  affected  the 
living,  the  traveling,  and  the  working  habits  of  industrial  workers.  It  revealed  A 
tremendous  dependence  upon  the  automobile.  The  average  worker  determines 
the  distance  between  his  home  and  his  job  on  the  basis  of  travel  line.  In  general, 
when  that  time  exceeds  more  than  an  hour  each  way,  he  will  seek  to  change  his  job 
job  first,  and  then  if  possible,  his  residence.  Of  course,  it  would  be  impossible  for 
any  large  group  of  workers  to  make  such  changes  in  a  short  time,  and  any  large 


scale  shift  would  undoubtedly  be  detrimental  to  the  war  production  program. 
As  I  said  before,  three-quarters  of  the  workers  in  the  750  plants  surveyed  came  to 
work  in  their  cars.  In  233  of  these  plants,  90  percent  of  the  employees  use  their 
cars;  and  in  51  plants,  all  of  the  employees  come  to  work  by  car.  The  51  plants 
which  are  100  percent  dependent  upon  the  private  car  employ  over  65,000  workers. 
Plants  in  the  Detroit  suburban  area  are  89  percent  dependent  on  the  private  car. 
I  have  brought  along  a  map  which  will  illustrate  better  than  words  the  transporta- 
tion difficulties  of  the  workers  in  this  area. 

What  is  true  in  Michigan  is  true  throughout  the  United  States  in  varying 
degrees.  In  the  Los  Angeles  metropolitan  area,  more  than  70  percent  of  the 
workers  drive  to  work  in  passenger  cars,  some  traveling  as  much  as  30  miles  a  day. 
In  one  of  the  key  aircraft  companies,  92  percent  of  the  50,000  workers  employed 
there  last  March  drove  to  work.  Common-carrier  transportation  converges  on 
downtown  Los  Angeles  in  such  a  way  as  to  make  it  practically  impossible  to  com- 
mute between  the  residential  suburbs  and  the  primary  defense  activities,  all  of 
which  are  scattered  like  the  ends  of  the  spokes  on  a  wheel.  Under  the  circum- 
stances, failure  of  automobile  transportation  would  not  only  create  great  difficulties 
and  hardships  for  the  workers,  but,  in  addition,  would  result  in  acute  housing 
shortages  in  many  of  the  Los  Angeles  industrial  suburbs,  and  might  very  well 
cause  a  collapse  of  war  production  in  the  important  area. 

In  the  outskirts  of  Baltimore,  42,500  workers  now  work  at  the  Glenn  L.  Martin 
bomber  plant.  Recent  reports  from  the  president  of  the  company  indicate  that  of 
the  42,500  workers  employed,  about  40,000  now  drive  to  work.  Because  of  its 
comparatively  isolated  position,  this  plant  is  now  almost  entirely  dependent  upon 
the  private  automobile. 

In  Pascagoula,  Miss.,  which  is  an  important  shipbuilding  center,  the  difficulties 
of  transportation  antedated  December  7,  1941.  Not  only  did  the  majority  of 
workers  depend  on  private  passenger  automobiles,  but  at  the  latest  report,  worker 
groups  had  purchased  23  old  school  busses  to  alleviate  the  problem.  There  are  no 
streetcar  or  interurban  bus  lines  in  Pascagoula.  In  some  of  the  larger  cities,  the 
automobile  situation  is  complicated  by  the  overloading  of  common  carriers  and 
congestion  of  traffic. 


By  a  few  examples  I  have  attempted  to  picture  how  much  the  average  war  plant 
depends  on  the  private  automobile  for  the  daily  arrival  of  its  workers.  Now  let  us 
examine  current  realities  in  automobile  transportation  and  the  effects  of  a  break- 
down in  present  methods  of  war  worker  transportation. 

We  now  possess  in  the  United  States  a  precious  stock  of  28,000,000  passenger 
automobiles  with  about  150,000,000  tires.  From  these  cars  and  tires,  we  have 
been  getting  about  500  billion  passenger  miles  per  year,  compared  to  a  total  of 
75,000,000,000  passenger  miles  from  all  other  vehicles;  that  is,  busses,  railroads, 
trolleys,  and  airplanes.  Studies  recently  completed  by  the  Brookings  Institution 
reach  the  conclusion  that  20,000,000  passenger  cars  represent  a  minimum  below 
which  serious  disruption  threatens  our  economy.  Even  if  we  assume  an  ability 
to  absorb  serious  economic  dislocation,  well  over  half  of  our  cars  must  be  kept 
running  just  to  make  our  war  economy  function  at  its  present  rate;  and  this  does 
not  contemplate  transportation  for  the  millions  of  new  war  workers  to  be  added 
in  the  future. 

As  everyone  knows,  the  factor  which  limits  our  ability  to  keep  20,000,000,  or 
even  15,000,000,  cars  on  the  road  is  the  lack  of  rubber  tires.  Outside  of  8,000,000 
new  tires  frozen  in  dealers'  hands,  our  total  resource  of  rubber  tires  is  on  the  road 
— being  ground  up  at  the  rate  of  about  3y2  percent  a  month.  As  these  wear  out, 
some  of  the  good  carcasses  can  be  recapped  with  reclaimed  rubber  which  is  good 
for  low  mileage  and  slow  speeds.  The  responsible  experts  tell  me  that  all  natural 
and  synthetic  rubber  production  for  the  next  several  years  is  going  100  percent 
to  military  requirements.  Therefore,  we  should  not  depend  on  wishful  thinking 
about  the  availability  of  new  or  synthetic  rubber  for  the  tires  of  civilians  or  war 
workers;  we  must  concentrate  on  getting  the  most  out  of  the  tires  we  have. 

We  are  told  that,  if  normal  driving  habits  continue,  the  visible  supply  of  tires 
will  not  maintain  adequate  auto  transportation  beyond  the  first  quarter  of  1943; 
and  by  December  1943,  the  number  of  cars  onthe  road  will  have  fallen  to  the 
catastrophic  level  of  10,000,000 — but  we  need  not  wait  until  1943.  Already  we 
are  getting  a  picture  of  the  manner  in  which  transportation  difficulties  are  imped- 
ing our  war  effort  by  fostering  labor  turn-over  and  crowded  housing  conditions. 
Workers  who  are  compelled  to  drive  long  distances  to  war  plants  are  quitting 


their  jobs  to  find  work  nearer  home.  In  some  cases  workers  faced  with  transporta- 
tion difficulties  attempt  to  secure  houses  nearer  work.  Any  effort  to  solve  the 
transportation  problem  by  the  construction  of  a  vast  amount  of  new  housing  will 
fail  because  the  cost  in  critical  materials,  labor,  and  overcrowding  would  stop  or 
seriously  reduce  the  production  of  armaments.  Just  to  show  how  the  tire  problem 
is  already  retarding  war  production  and  burdening  the  war  housing  program,  let 
me  read  you  a  plea  from  a  southern  textile  mill  engaged  in  war  production: 

"We  used  to  draw  hands  from  the  surrounding  country,  but  since  the  tire 
shortage  has  become  acute  those  hands  want  houses,  and  we  have  lost  several 
on  account  of  not  having  houses  for  them.  This  mill  is  in  the  country  and  if 
we  are  to  run  we  will  have  to  house  the  workers. 

"Referring  to  the  incident  which  you  mention  (eviction  of  a  war  worker's 
family),  I  beg  to  advise  that  there  have  been  over  30  such  cases  in  recent  months 
in  this  community,  and  we  have  been  obliged  to  ask  for  the  houses  for  workers 
in  the  mill  else  we  would  have  had  machinery  standing." 

From  places  as  far  apart  as  Freeport,  Tex.,  and  Bath,  Maine,  we  have  received 
reports  of  war  workers  driving  50  to  60  miles  each  way  daily  between  their  homes 
and  their  jobs,  workers  who  find  no  housing  and  may  soon  find  no  transportation. 
Not  only  war  production  is  suffering  from  a  lack  of  transportation,  agriculture 
also  is  having  trouble.  Orchardists  in  Michigan  and  truck  farmers  along  the 
eastern  seaboard  organized  their  work  around  the  supply  of  migrant  farm  workers. 
This  year  the  lack  of  tires  and  other  transportation  difficulties  make  the  supply 
of  migrant  farm  workers  hard  to  find.     This  may  curtail  food  production. 


The  Labor  Production  Division  and  its  predecessor,  the  Labor  Division,  have 
been  acutely  aware  of  the  impending  consequences  of  failure  of  private  automo- 
bile transportation  ever  since  Pearl  Harbor.  Its  industry  consultants  in  their 
consultations  with  the  various  industry  branches  have  stressed  the  workers' 
dependence  upon  the  automobile  for  essential  transportation.  Our  transporta- 
tion and  housing  consultants  have  advised  the  various  governmental  agencies, 
concerned  with  transportation  and  housing  on  specific  programs  for  meeting 
transportation  needs.  They  have  not  only  insisted  on  the  importance  of  the 
private  automobile  in  their  discussions  with  other  agencies,  but  they  have  taken 
the  initiative  by  bringing  together  representatives  of  responsible  agencies  for 
the  purpose  of  finding  the  solution  to  a  number  of  local  transportation  problems, 
Through  its  participation  in  Mr.  Nelson's  production  drive,  the  Labor  Produc- 
tion Division  has  been  instrumental  in  the  formation  of  numerous  transportation 
subcommittees  to  joint  management-labor  production  drive  committees.  These 
committees  are  engaged  in  organizing  car-sharing  and  tire-conservation  programs 
in  war  plants. 

From  these  intimate  contacts  with  the  problem,  I  have  been  unable  to  secure 
assurance  that  there  is  a  solution  in  process.  Not  only  is  there  no  assurance 
that  there  will  be  a  supply  of  natural  or  synthetic  rubber  for  new  tires  for  workers' 
cars  in  the  next  2  or  3  years,  but  there  has  been  no  aggressive  action  on  the 
part  of  Federal  authorities  to  conserve  rubber  now  on  cars  so  that  a  supply  of 
reclaimed  rubber  will  be  available  to  retread  workers'  tires.  This  problem  is  too 
serious  to  gamble  with  the  possibilities  of  developing  new  sources  of  rubber.  We 
have  the  rubber  now  to  take  care  of  our  needs  for  several  years.  Practically  all 
of  it  is  on  our  present  supply  of  automotive  equipment.  Once  burned  off  on  the 
road,  it  is  lost  forever. 

Too  much  reliance  has  been  placed  on  voluntary  programs  of  conservation. 
Michigan  was  probably  the  first  State  to  organize  such  a  program.  The  now 
well-known  Pontiac  plan  was  formulated  by  the  Michigan  State  Highway  De- 
partment early  this  year  and  tried  out  in  Pontiac,  Mich.,  an  industrial  com- 
munity 25  miles  north  of  Detroit.  This  was  a  plan  of  voluntary  cooperation 
devised  to  make  the  most  use  possible  of  existing  transportation  equipment. 
Posters  and  publicity  were  developed  to  induce  workers  to  group  up  and  drive  to 
work  five  in  a  car,  to  "swap  rides"  with  each  other,  and  to  make  maximum  use 
of  such  common  carrier  transportation  as  existed.  Maps  were  prepared  on  the 
basis  of  which  neighbors  could  get  together  for  organizing  car  club  and  swap-ride 
arrangements.  Plans  were  made  with  various  plants,  shops,  and  schools  to  stagger 
their  hours  in  such  a  way  that  more  even  use  could  be  made  of  common-carrier 
equipment,  and  these  plans  were  put  into  effect.  This  economy  is  very  important 
because  the  number  of  busses  and  streetcars  used  at  the  peak  of  activity  is  three 
times  the  number  used  during  the  rest  of  the  day.  The  existing  equipment,  if 
hours  are  properly  staggered,  could  carry  at  least  twice  the  number  of  passengers. 


The  moderate  success  of  this  voluntary  form  of  transportation  economy  has 
■caused  the  Automotive  Safety  Foundation  and  the  Office  of  Defense  Transporta- 
tion to  modify  the  Pontiac  plan  into  what  is  called  A  Plan  for  the  Conservation 
of  Vital  War  Transportation,  which  is  now  being  disseminated  over  the  entire 
country  to  be  administered  by  the  mayor  of  each -municipality. 

Experience  has  shown  that  voluntary  methods  are  inadequate  to  do  the  full 
job.  For  example,  in  St.  Louis  where  the  Office  of  Defense  Transportation  plan 
has  been  inaugurated,  3  of  the  largest  department  stores  employing  several 
thousand  workers  have  refused  to  change  their  opening  and  closing  hours  to 
comply  with  the  plan  for  staggering  shifts.  Even  in  Pontiac,  after  several  weeks 
of  an  aggressive  campaign  involving  publicity  as  well  as  personal  contact  with 
plant  managers  and  workers'  groups,  there  was  still  only  1  rider  beside  the  driver 
in  each  car.  Formerly,  only  1  car  out  of  3  carried  an  extra  rider.  In  other 
words,  50  cars  were  being  used  to  carry  100  workers  to  their  job.  compared  with 
the  earlier  figure  of  70  cars  per  100  workers.  While  this  improvement  is  impor- 
tant, it  falls  far  short  not  onlv  of  the  possible  maximum,  but  of  what  is  required 
by  exigencies  of  the  present  situation. 

At  a  meeting  in  Detroit  on  April  13,  called  by  a  representative  of  the  Labor 
Division  of  the  War  Production  Board  to  review  workers'  transportation  pro- 
grams, practically  all  speakers  representing  local  business,  Government,  and 
workers'  groups  urged  that  any  local  program  for  transportation  conservation 
be  backed  up  by  the  authority  of  the  Federal  Government.  All  groups  expressed 
a  willingness  to  cooperate  fully  if  they  were  told  what  was  necessary  by  a  com- 
petent authority  and  were  protected  against  chiselers. 

Indifference,  inertia,  and  just  plain  shortsightedness  result  in  many  employers 
and  workers  failing  to  respond  to  publicity  campaigns.  The  crisis  in  worker 
transportation  and  in  the  supply  of  rubber  is  too  great  to  permit  continuance  of 
the  purely  publicity  methods  of  solving  the  problem.  I  believe  that  it  is  neces- 
sary to  put  teeth  in  the  program  if  we  are  to  achieve  our  victory  goals.  In  this 
viewpoint,  I  believe  that  I  have  the  support  of  both  workers  and  employers  in 
war  industries  who  want  to  be  told  just  what  to  do  in  order  to  achieve  the  maxi- 
mum use  of  our  transportation  facilities.  I  submit,  therefore,  a  three-point 
program.  This  program  can  only  succeed  if  it  is  coordinated  and  directed  by 
the  Federal  Government.  Publicity  is  necessary  to  sell  it  to  the  workers  and 
other  groups  in  the  community;  but  publicity  alone  will  not  achieve  the  required 


First,  we  must  conserve  our  existing  transportation  equipment  and,  partic- 
ularly, the  existing  supply  of  rubber.  Second,  we  must  allocate  the  existing  supp  ly 
of  equipment  and  rubber  to  uses  essential  to  the  prosecution  of  the  war.  Third, 
we  must  plan  every  phase  of  the  war  program  involving  passenger  transportation 
in  such  a  way  as  not  to  add  needlessly  to  the  transportation  problem.  This 
third  point  might  seem  to  come  first,  but  since  it  is  pointless  to  plan  the  use  of 
that  which  we  do  not  have  I  put  conservation  first. 

To  promote  conservation,  there  is  urgently  needed  a  system  of  rationing  mileage 
to  private  automobiles  which  would  limit  their  use  to  essential  driving.  In 
defining  essential  driving,  due  allowance  should  be  made  for  a  limited  amount  of 
convenience  and  recreational  driving.  Such  an  allowance  is  desirable  for  the 
maintenance  of  the  health,  morale,  and  efficiency  of  the  worker.  I  realize  that 
it  is  difficult  to  devise  a  fair  system.  I  do  not  have  the  fear  of  public  reaction 
which  seems  to  possess  some  persons.  Once  the  American  people  understand 
the  necessities  of  the  situation  and  are  fully  informed  as  to  how  the  system  will 
operate,  their  cooperation  will  be  forthcoming;  particularly  if  they  are  made 
part  of  the  operating  machinery.  I  therefore  suggest  (a)  that  worker-manage- 
ment committees  be  set  up  in  each  place  of  employment;  (b)  that  these  commit- 
tees be  assigned  the  function  of  organizing  car  clubs  and  swap-car  arrangements 
and;  (c)  that  when  automotive  equipment — be  it  new  cars,  new  tires,  retreads, 
gasoline,  or  parts — is  rationed  to  a  worker,  the  committee  or  a  designated  repre- 
sentative certifies  the  need  for  the  particular  rationed  article.  I  suggest  further 
that  our  existing  rationing  boards  should  be  made  representative  of  the-  major 
groups  in  the  community. 

We  must  reexamine  common  carrier  use  of  transportation  equipment  to  elimi- 
nate wasteful  duplication  and  such  transportation  as  must  be  regarded  as  non- 
essential in  this  war  emergency.  The  essential  transportation  job  which  must 
be  done  is  so  big  that  every  piece  of  equipment  must  be  operated  to  capacity 
on  necessary  runs.     It  also  requires  that  the  operating  personnel  be  used  effi- 


ciently.  Some  staggering  of  working,  shopping  and  school  hours  has  taken 
place,  but  many  busses  still  travel  in  only  one  direction  with  a  full  load  and  return 
empty.  Transportation  coordinators  must  be  appointed  to  stimulate,  review 
and  implement  local  transportation  plans.     The  entire  country  must  be  covered. 

If  conservation  is  successful,  as  it  must  be,  in  making  transportation  equip- 
ment and  materials  available,  such  equipment  and  materials  must  be  allocated 
to  places  where  there  are  shortages.  Railroad  passenger  cars  must  be  transferred 
from  luxury  runs  to  provide  necessary  transportation  to  outlying  war  plants; 
such  as  the  Glenn  Martin  and  Ford  bomber  plants.  Busses  unneeded  because 
of  staggering  of  hours  must  be  allocated  to  places  where  the  increase  in  necessary 
transportation  is  so  great  that  the  local  resources  are  insufficient.  Tires  on 
nonessential  private  automobiles  must  be  purchased  by  the  Government  and 
allocated  to  war  workers  who  are  cooperating  fully  in  carrying  full  loads  of  fellow 
workers.  New  cars  must  be  made  available  as  needed  to  those  workers  whose 
cars  wear  out,  or  who  do  not  own  cars.  Bicycles  must  be  allocated  to  those 
workers  who  live  close  enough  to  their  work  to  use  a  bicycle  but  not  close  enough 
to  walk. 

Finally,  there  is  the  need  for  a  coordinated  solution  of  the  housing,  transporta- 
tion, labor  recruitment  and  related  problems.  As  pointed  out  earlier,  our  war 
housing  problem  is  tremendous  without  the  added  burden  of  housing  automobile 
drivers  near  their  work.  I  am  worried  that  we  will  not  be  able  to  spare  sufficient 
men  and  materials  to  house  the  many  workers  coming  from  long  distances  to  take 
employment  in  war  plants.  If,  in  addition,  we  try  to  house  the  automobile 
commuters  near  their  work,  we  will  not  be  able  to  do  a  tenth  of  the  job.  Of 
course,  insofar  as  possible,  housing  built  for  migrants  should  be  located  near  the 
place  of  employment  in  order  not  to  add  to  the  transportation  problem;  but  we 
have  other  scarcities  besides  those  in  transportation.  Copper  and  steel  must 
be  conserved  for  articles  of  war.  Housing  sites  near  plants  sometimes  lack 
utility  extensions  and  require  excessive  amounts  of  critical  materials.  Not  only 
in  this  connection,  but  in  others,  there  must  be  a  balancing  of  scarcities.  In 
order  to  provide  such  a  balancing,  I  suggest  that  local  programs  involving  worker 
transportation,  housing,  and  community  facilities  be  arrived  at  jointly  by  repre- 
sentatives of  the  appropriate  Federal  agencies,  in  cooperation  with  civic,  manage- 
ment and  labor  groups,  preferably  in  the  localities  concerned.  These  programs 
have  a  common  purpose;  namely,  to  assure  an  efficient  labor  force  in  war  produc- 
tion. If  they  are  to  serve  their  purpose,  they  must  not  only  be  closely  integrated 
with  each  other,  but  they  must  also  be  closely  related  to  the  programs  of  labor 
recruitment,  labor  supply,  and  worker  morale. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you. 

Let  the  record  show  that  Congressmen  Pierce  and  Voorhis  are 

Mr.  Eastman,  will  you  please  be  seated? 


The  Chairman.  We  are  pleased  to  have  you  with  us  this  morning, 
Mr.  Eastman.  We  will  be  just  as  brief  as  we  possibly  can,  but  this 
is  a  very  important  problem  we  are  now  discussing,  the  transportation 
of  war-production  workers,  and  I  wonder  if  you  will  be  kind  enough 
to  briefly  state  the  primary  functions  of  the  Office  of  Defense  Trans- 

Mr.  Eastman.  The  function  of  the  Office  of  Defense  Transporta- 
tion, as  stated  or  summed  up  in  the  first  paragraph  of  the  Executive 
order  of  the  President  which  created  the  Office,  was  to  insure  maxi- 
mum utilization  of  the  domestic  transportation  facilities  of  the  Nation 
for  the  successful  prosecution  of  the  war.  I  think  that  sums  it  up 
practically.  It  relates  simply  to  the  domestic  transportation  facilities 
as  distinguished  from  the  overseas. 

The  Chairman.  For  the  purpose  of  the  record  I  wonder  if  you 
will  be  kind  enough  to  give  me  the  names  of  the  gentlemen  who  ap- 
pear with  you. 


Mr.  Eastman.  I  have  with  me  Mr.  Otto  S.  Beyer,  Director  of 
my  Division  of  Transport  Personnel;  Mr.  Henry  F.  McCarthy, 
Director  of  my  Division  of  Traffic  Movement;  Mr.  G.  Lloyd  Wilson, 
Director  of  my  Division  of  Rates;  and  Mr.  Harold  Sampson,  pas- 
senger assistant  in  the  Division  of  Traffic  Movement. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  consider  that  your  agency  has  the  primary 
responsibility  for  the  transportation  of  industrial  and  agricultural 
war  workers? 

Mr.  Eastman.  I  think  we  have  responsibility  to  aid  in  the  solution 
of  any  of  those  problems.  Of  course,  we  are  not  managing  and 
operating  the  carriers,  but  it  is  our  duty  to  look  into  such  questions 
and  do  what  we  can  to  promote  their  solution. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  tie  in  with  any  other  agencies? 

Mr.  Eastman.  We  work  with  a  great  many  different  agencies  on 
different  problems.  We  work  very  closely  with  the  War  Production 
Board  on  many  problems,  with  the  Office  of  Price  Administration, 
with  the  Petroleum  Coordinator,  with  the  War  Department,  Navy 
Department,  and  so  forth.  I  think  in  one  way  or  another  we  work 
with  most  of  them. 

The  Chairman.  Where  does  the  primary  responsibility  lie;  with 

Mr.  Eastman.  With  respect  to  transportation? 

The  Chairman.  Of  war  workers;  yes. 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eastman,  on  June  11,  Mr.  John  J.  Corson, 
Director  of  the  Bureau  of  Employment  Security,  testified  before 
this  committee  regarding  the  problem  of  obtaining  transportation 
for  migrant  agricultural  or  construction  workers.  At  that  time  he 
indicated  that  in  his  estimation  no  agency  could  be  said  to  be  re- 
sponsible for  the  actual  transportation  of  workers,  and  I  should  like 
to  read  you  a  portion  of  his  testimony,  as  follows : 

The  Office  of  Defense  Transportation  has  been  very  helpful  in  endeavoring  to 
work  out  transportation  arrangements  which  facilitate  the  movement  of  workers, 
but  they  do  not  have  any  responsibility,  nor  I  believe  does  any  other  agency  have 
the  responsibility  for  the  actual  transportation  of  workers. 

Do  you  agree  with  Mr.  Corson  on  that? 

Mr.  Eastman.  I  would  not  say  we  have  the  responsibility  of  finding 
out  where  workers  are  needed  and  then  of  procuring  transportation 
for  them.  I  think,  if  there  is  a  problem  in  connection  with  the  trans- 
portation of  such  workers,  that  it  is  part  of  our  duty  to  help  in  the 
solving  of  that  problem,  but  I  do  not  think  it  is  part  of  our  duty  to 
search  the  country  and  determine  where  there  is  a  surplus  of  agricul- 
tural workers  and  where  there  is  a  deficit  and  to  arrange  for  their 

The  Chairman.  Studies  of  the  traveling  habits  of  workers  in  some 
California  war  plants,  made  by  the  California  Railroad  Commission, 
showed  that  60  to  80  percent  of  the  workers  travel  by  automobile. 
Has  your  Office  any  general  findings  on  the  importance  of  automobile 
travel  among  war  workers  throughout  the  country? 


Mr.  Eastman.  WTe  know  the  travel  by  automobile  is  of  very  large 
importance  in  connection  with  the  transportation  of  war  workers. 
Many  of  these  great  new  war-production  plants  which  have   been 


built  in  the  last  year  or  so  have  been  built  out  in  the  open  spaces  where 
the  reliance  was  very  largely  upon  the  private  passenger  car  for  the 
transportation  of  the  workers.  In  some  places  where  they  have  been 
located  there  are  practically  no  common-carrier  facilities  by  rail  or 
by  bus,  and  in  other  cases  such  facilities  are  wholly  inadequate  to  take 
care  of  the  transportation.  They  were  not  located  in  many  instances 
with  reliance  upon  other  than  private  passenger  cars. 

As  an  illustration,  I  saw  a  report  not  long  ago  with  respect  to  the 
factories  which  are  building  airplanes  in  southern  California,  and  as 
I  recall  it,  90  percent,  or  possibly  a  little  more  of  the  workers  in  those 
plants  used  the  private  passenger  car  in  going  to  and  from  work,  and 
those  plants  were  not  located  on  railroad  lines. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Lund  testified  this  morning  that  some  plants 
had  as  high  as  90  percent  of  the  war  workers  riding  in  their  own 

Mr.  Eastman.  That  is  correct. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  indicative  of  the  critical  situation? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes.  I  have  a  Division  of  Local  Transport  which 
was  created  for  the  purpose  of  dealing  with  that  very  question,  the 
transportation  of  war  workers.  We  have  an  advisory  committee  on 
which  the  departments  are  represented  which  are  primarily  interested 
in  that  transportation,  such  as  the  War  Department,  the  Navy 
Department,  the  Maritime  Commission,  the  Defense  Housing  Cor- 
poration, and  so  on.  That  advisory  committee  meets  every  week, 
and  we  have  also  been  instrumental  in  getting  together  an  organization 
of  the  State  and  municipal  authorities  for  the  purpose  of  dealing  with 
those  problems. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Mr.  Eastman,  right  on  that  point,  do  these  municipal 
authorities  have  contact  with  any  local  representative  of  your  organi- 
zation from  the  Division  of  Local  Transport? 

Mr.  Eastman.  We  have  established  an  extensive  field  organization 
in  that  particular  work.  We  have  men  whom  we  send  around  the 
country,  men  of  great  experience  in  local  transportation  matters. 
We  have  one  who  is  located  on  the  Pacific  coast  permanently.  But 
we  have  been  trying  to  handle  that  problem  as  far  as  possible  "through 
the  local  authorities  because  we  do  not  want  to  build  up  a  great 
field  organization  centralized  at  Washington  and  we  felt  that  after 
all  it  was  primarily  a  local  question  and  that  the  facilities  of  the 
State  public  utility  commissions  and  of  the  State  highway  depart- 
ments and  of  the  municipal  authorities  should  be  concentrated  on 
those  problems.  We  endeavor  to  advise  and  assist  and  help  and 
guide  them,  but  we  have  not  undertaken  to  build  up  a  huge  organiza- 
tion of  our  own. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Mr.  Lund  indicated  earlier  that  in  his  opinion  the  situa- 
tion is  becoming  quite  critical  in  many  places  where  large  war  plants 
are  in  operation.  He  outlined  a  program  for  trying  to  get,  at  the 
present  time  at  least,  merely  voluntary  cooperation  of  the  workers 
and  the  management  of  the  plants  in  some  scheme.  He  was  ques- 
tioned as  to  whether  he  would  favor  a  coordinator,  a  local  traffic 
coordinator  of  some  kind  to  be  municipally  created,  perhaps,  and 
he  said  he  thought  that  might  be  necessary.  What  would  your 
position  be  on  that? 

Mr.  Eastman.  We  have  asked  the  Governors  and  mayors  to 
appoint  representatives  to  work  on  those  questions.     We  have  also 


outlined  at  great  length  the  steps  we  feel  should  be  taken  in  solving 
many  of  these  questions.  We  have  asked  the  mayors  when  they 
appointed  representatives  to  work  on  these  questions,  to  work  with 
and  through  the  State  organizations.  We  have  also  suggested  they 
tie  in  wherever  they  can  with  the  transportation  committees  of  the 
Office  of  Civilian  Defense. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Is  it  your  opinion  the  situation,  particularly  with 
respect  to  passenger-car  transportation  of  workers  to  plants,  has 
become  sufficiently  critical  to  warrant  some  kind  of  authoritative  or 
compulsory  arrangement  locally  in  some  places? 


Mr.  Eastman.  I  think  under  my  present  authority  I  can  go  further 
than  I  have  in  the  direction  of  ordering  things  to  be  done.  Up  to 
the  present  time  we  have  been  trying  to  get  as  much  accomplished 
as  we  could  through  voluntary  effort  and  also  through  the  action  of 
local  authorities,  and  very  effective  work  has  been  done  in  many 
parts  of  the  country.  That  can  be  supplemented,  for  example  in 
the  East,  where  there  is  a  system  of  gasoline  rationing  at  the  present 
time.  It  is  proposed  that  the  system  of  gasoline  rationing  be  used 
in  order  to  further  the  plans  with  respect  to  group-riding  to  and 
from  defense  plants.  If  there  were  a  system  of  Nation-wide  gasoline 
rationing  that  could  be  used  in  the  same  way. 

Off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Arnold.  Well,  now,  in  connection  with  the  rationing  of  the 
use  of  automobiles,  is  gasoline  rationing  the  only  way  to  approach 
the  subject? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Well,  of  course,  the  objective  is  restriction  upon  the 
operation  of  the  vehicles.  The  situation  is  such  that  if  these  vehicles 
are  to  be  preserved  for  essential  uses — and  they  are  tremendously 
necessary  for  many  essential  purposes — their  use  for  unnecessary  or 
wasteful  purposes  has  got  to  be  eliminated. 

Now,  in  approaching  the  problem  of  how  to  bring  about  that  elimi- 
nation, gasoline  rationing  comes  up,  not  for  the  purpose  of  saving  gas 
but  as  a  simple  means  of  restricting  operation.  If  you  restrict  opera- 
tion you  are  going  to  reduce  the  consumption  of  gas,  and  if  you 
reduce  the  sale  of  gas  you  are  going  to  restrict  operation;  it  all  comes 
out  to  the  same  result  whichever  way  you  do  it.  You  could,  con- 
ceivably, limit  the  mileage  operated  by  individual  cars,  but  to  do 
that  you  would  have  to  have  a  system  for  recording  the  mileage 
operated  and  for  the  inspection  of  those  records,  and  so  forth,  and  it 
would  be  a  very  complicated  thing  to  work  out. 

Mr.  Arnold.  I  guess  some  100  of  us  in  the  lower  House  are  from 
districts  where  gasoline  is  no  problem. 

Mr.  Eastman.  Except  in  the  East  there  is  no  purpose  of  rationing 
gasoline  for  the  sake  of  saving  gasoline. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Some  of  us  have  10  or  15  refineries  located  in  various 
parts  of  the  district,  and  apparently  Mr.  Henderson  or  someone  did 
not  put  over  the  idea  because  I  never  saw  such  a  protest  as  we  had 
on  rationing  gasoline  in  areas  where  it  was  being  refined.  I  am 
heartily  in  accord  with  the  idea  that  people  should  understand  why 
thej^  are  being  rationed. 


Mr.  Eastman.  It  is  not  the  gasoline  that  would  be  rationed  in 
such  territories  but  the  operation  of  the  vehicles;  the  gasoline  would 
be  simply  the  means  to  an  end. 

Mr.  Arnold.  That  will  have  to  be  put  over  or  the  people  will 
have  a  chance  to  take  a  whack  at  us.  They  don't  get  a  chance  to 
take  a  whack  at  you  or  Mr.  Henderson  or  whoever  is  responsible;  we 
are  the  only  ones  who  have  our  heads  out. 

Mr.  Eastman.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  Off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Arnold.  Can  you  tell  me,  Mr.  Eastman,  whether  the  normal 
dependence  of  industrial  workers  on  passenger  cars  has  increased  or 
decreased  as  a  result  of  the  impetus  of  the  war  program? 

Mr.  Eastman.  That  would  be  just  a  guess.  I  don't  think  there 
are  any  statistics  on  that,  but  my  guess  would  be  that  because  of 
the  fact  that  so  many  of  these  great  new  plants  have  been  located 
outside  of  the  confines  of  the  cities,  outside  of  the  thickly  settled 
portions  and  in  the  open  spaces  beyond,  my  guess  would  be  that 
the  dependence  on  the  private  passenger  car  has,  on  the  whole, 

Mr.  Arnold.  And  probably  will  increase  much  more  in  the  next 
year  because  of  the  largely  increased  number  of  war  workers? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Has  your  Office  conducted  studies,  or  do  you  sit 
in  on  the  location  of  war  plants  with  relation  to  the  problem  of 
worker  transportation  ? 

Mr.  Eastman.  We  do  now.  Of  course,  a  great  many  of  these 
plants  were  located  before  my  Office  was  created.  My  Office  has 
only  been  in  existence  since  the  first  of  the  year,  but  we  are  now 
represented  on  the  Plant  Site  Board  of  the  War  Production  Board, 
and  we  are  consulted  as  to  the  location  of  those  new  plants  from  the 
standpoint  of  transportation. 


Mr.  Arnold.  Most  of  the  automobiles  carry  one  or  two  passengers 
each  when  they  have  a  capacity  for  five;  do  you  see  any  possibility 
that  automobile  owners  may  soon  be  required  to  carry  the  full  number 
of  passengers? 

Mr.  Eastman.  That  has  been  a  very  important  part  of  the  pro- 
grams that  we  have  been  endeavoring  to  institute  in  connection 
with  these  war-production  plants,  the  group  riding,  or  share  riding, 
or  whatever  it  is  called.  In  many  cases  a  great  deal  has  already 
been  done  in  that  direction.  For  example,  not  long  ago  I  was  in 
Indianapolis  and  went  through  the  Allison  plant,  where  they  manu- 
facture the  liquid-cooled  motors  for  airplanes,  an  enormous  plant. 
There  they  have  in  operation  a  campaign  for  group  riding  by  their 
workers  and  they  have  succeeded  in  getting  the  group  riding  up, 
I  think,  to  the  basis  of  three  and  a  fraction  riders  per  vehicle  now, 
which  is  a  pretty  good  figure.  Of  course,  the  plant  can  do  something 
to  control  that  situation  through  its  control  of  parking  facilities, 
and  so  forth. 

Under  the  new  rationing  plan  in  the  East,  as  I  said,  I  think  steps 
are  being  taken  to  bring  indirect  pressure  to  bear,  through  the  ration- 


ing  of  gasoline,  so  as  to  bring  about  tliis  group  riding  which  is  a 
very  important  tiling;  it  must  be  brought  about.     Off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Eastman,  I  don't  know  that  you  answered  as 
to  whether  or  not  the  Plant  Site  Board  is  giving  consideration  to 
the  transportation  problem  in  the  location  of  plants. 

Mr.  Eastman.  It  is,  and  also  the  Defense  Housing  Corporation  in 
its  work  is  giving  a  great  deal  of  attention  and  is  endeavoring  to  locate 
the  housing  so  as  to  reduce  the  transportation  problem. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Do  you  have  any  figures  on  the  average  life  expec- 
tancy of  tires  on  automobiles  of  war  workers  for  given  areas,  or  on  a 
sample  basis? 

Mr.  Eastman.  I  did  not  bring  up  the  head  of  my  division  dealing 
with  that  matter,  who,  I  know,  has  many  such  figures.  I  have  one 
in  my  head  right  now  in  accordance  with  this  report  that  I  saw  about 
the  workers  at  the  airplane  plants  in  southern  California,  where  90 
percent  of  them  depend  upon  the  automobile.  My  recollection  is 
that  report  indicated  that  if  they  went  on  using  the  automobiles  the 
way  they  are  using  them  now,  that  they  had  an  average  life  of  some- 
thing under  1  year;  it  was  somewhere  between  6  and  12  months.  I 
cannot  give  you  the  exact  figure,  but  we  can  supply  a  good  deal  of 
information  of  that  kind  if  you  would  like  to  have  it. 

The  Chairman.  We  will  contact  you. 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes. 


Mr.  Arnold.  I  notice  in  one  industrial  area  20  percent  walked  or 
used  a  bicycle.  Do  you  know  to  what  extent  the  bicycle  is  coming 
back  into  the  picture? 

Mr.  Eastman.  I  know  it  is  coining  back  into  the  picture  quite 
extensively.  Many  of  my  own  friends  have  bought  bicycles  and  are 
using  them.  I  think  that  is  quite  general  around  the  country.  I 
think  there  is  a  question  now  pending  before  the  War  Production 
Board  as  to  whether  the  production  of  bicycles  is  to  be  continued. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Of  course,  it  is  a  little  difficult  to  use  bicycles  where 
automobiles  so  largely  cover  the  road;  it  is  rather  dangerous. 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Some  time  ago  considerable  publicity  was  given  to  a 
bus  which  could  carry  from  125  to  140  people.  Are  these  busses 
being  manufactured  on  a  large  scale  yet? 

Mr.  Eastman.  No.  I  am  sorry,  Mr.  Chairman,  but  I  thought  you 
were  going  to  consider  the  question  of  these  migratory  workers,  and 
for  that  reason  I  did  not  come  prepared  to  discuss  the  general  question 
of  the  transportation  of  defense  workers. 

The  Chairman.  It  is  so  interrelated  with  the  whole  question 

Mr.  Eastman.  What  was  the  question  you  asked  me? 

Mr.  Arnold.  Are  those  busses  which  have  a  capacity  of  125  to 
140  people  practical  and  are  they  being  manufactured  as  yet  to  any 

,  Mr.  Eastman.  My  Division  of  Local  Transport  was  instrumental 
in  getting  that  idea  under  way,  and  one  of  the  men  in  that  Bureau, 
Mr.  Shephard,  in  conjunction  with  men  on  the  outside,  worked  on  the 


design  of  the  first  of  those  trailer  busses,  which  you  may  have  seen 
here  in  Washington.  It  was  a  very  ugly  affair,  but  it  was  made  out  of 
noncritical  war  materials  and  was  very  light  for  its  capacity  and  was 
very  cheap,  and  although  not  overly  comfortable  it  was  entirely 
practicable  for  transportation  of  war  workers  where  mass  transporta- 
tion is  required.  Since  that  time  there  has  been  a  great  deal  of 
activity  on  the  part  of  bus  and  trailer  manufacturers  in  designing 
similar  vehicles.  One  has  been  designed  which  can  be  towed  by  a 
small  automobile  like  a  Chevrolet.  I  went  around  the  streets  of 
Chicago  in  this  bus  and  it  was  behind  an  ordinary  Chevrolet  car. 
That  vehicle  can  carry  24  passengers  and  it  is  light  and  made  largely 
out  of  noncritical  war  materials  and  is  not  expensive  to  make.  The 
Fruehauf  Trailer  Co.  has  designed  one  which  is  quite  like  the  one  we 
had  designed  originally,  but  they  have  given  it  sex  appeal  by  putting 
more  attractive  paint  on  the  outside  and  some  cushions  on  the  seats. 
Then,  some  of  these  haul-away  automobile  carriers  are  being  re- 
designed for  the  carriage  of  passengers,  and  I  understand  that  work  i& 
going  on. 

Now,  with  respect  to  the  construction  of  these  trailers,  and  so  forth r 
we  have  been  in  an  argument  with  the  War  Production  Board  on  that 
and  we  do  not  know  yet  whether  the  construction  will  be  permitted; 
we  think  it  should  be  and  have  so  argued,  but  that  question  still  re- 
mains to  be  determined. 

Mr.  Arnold.  You  believe  both  the  large-capacity  busses  and 
trailers  have  very  important  possibilities  in  this  war  effort? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes.  Of  course,  the  question  which  the  War 
Production  Board  has  to  consider  is  the  fact  that  while  these  busses 
which  have  been  designed,  as  I  have  indicated,  use  very  little  steel  and 
other  critical  war  material,  they  do  use  new  rubber  tires,  and  that  has- 
been  one  of  the  sticking  points  in  connection  with  them. 


Mr.  Arnold.  Has  consideration  been  given  to  proposals  for  the 
staggering  of  office,  store,  and  factory  hours  as  a  means  of  making 
fuller  utilization  of  mass  transportation  systems? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes.  That,  together  with  group  riding,  is  one  of  the 
important  features  of  our  program  and  we  have  urged  that  upon  all 
the  cities  of  the  country  and  I  am  glad  to  say  it  is  being  carried  out  in 
many  if  not  most  of  them.  Of  course,  Washington  was  the  first  city 
to  adopt  it  extensively.  New  York  has  a  system  and  Los  Angeles  has 
a  system.  I  was  in  Cleveland  the  other  day  and  they  are  doing 
splendid  work  on  that  matter.  It  is  spreading  rapidly  throughout 
the  country  and  is  a  very  effective  way  of  making  the  existing  facilities 
go  further  by  eliminating  the  rush-hour  peaks. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eastman,  I  suppose  the  turnover  rates  of 
manpower  in  war  plants  will  be  affected  greatly  on  account  of  lack  of 

Mr.  Eastman.  You  mean  the  labor  turn-over? 

The  Chairman.  Yes,  quitting  one  plant  and  going  to  another. 

Mr.  Eastman.  You  mean  it  will  be  a  little  difficult  for  them  to 
shift  around  because  of  that? 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 


Mr.  Eastman.  I  should  think  it  might  have  that  effect.  It  would 
add  another  aggravation  to  the  turn-over  situation.  Obviously,  if 
men  experience  difficulty  in  getting  back  and  forth  to  work  they 
will  find  themselves  a  job  where  they  do  not  have  that  difficulty  to 
contend  with,  so  it  is  reasonable  to  assume — — ■ 

The  Chairman.  I  don't  suppose  you  have  any  estimates  on  that. 

Mr.  Eastman.  No.  I  would  think,  however,  the  developing  of 
housing  facilities  contiguous  to  plants  would  alleviate  that  com- 

The  Chairman.  Yes;  that  has  been  suggested  this  morning. 


Mr.  Arnold.  To  what  extent  will  railroads  and  trolley  systems  be 
able  to  take  over  the  job  of  transporting  war  workers  in  the  event 
of  a  break-down  of  automobile  transportation  facilities? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Are  you  referring  to  the  problem  of  migratory 

Mr.  Arnold.  No.  In  the  first  place  I  would  like  to  have  your 
opinion  as  to  the  general  picture;  in  other  words,  will  the  rails  be 
able  to  take  the  load? 

Mr.  Eastman.  If  you  are  speaking  not  of  the  mere  shifting  of  a 
group  of  workers  from  one  part  of  the  country  to  another,  but  the 
daily  transportation  of  workers  between  their  homes  and  places  of 
work,  I  doubt  very  much  whether  the  railroads  will  be  able  to  help 
greatly  on  that,  for  two  reasons:  In  the  first  place,  the  railroad 
passenger  equipment  has  not  been  increased  in  recent  years;  in  fact, 
the  tendency  has  been  for  it  to  reduce,  owing  to  the  tremendous 
competition  the  railroads  have  had  from  highway  automotive  vehicles. 
The  railroads  have  much  less  passenger  equipment  now  than  we  had 
at  the  time  of  the  last  World  War,  for  example.  So  much  of  the 
service  has  been  taken  care  of  by  bus  and  private  automobile  that 
railroads  have  a  very  difficult  problem  in  the  handling  of  passenger 
traffic  at  the  present  time.  Of  course,  their  primary  obligation  is 
with  respect  to  the  movement  of  troops,  and  the  troop  movements 
have  been  very  heavy,  are  very  heavy  at  the  present  time,  and 
promise  to  increase  as  time  goes  on,  and  probably  before  the  summer 
is  over  the  movement  of  troops  will  be  very,  very  heavy,  and  that 
comes  first  and  foremost;  the  railroads  have  to  take  care  of  that  to 
the  exclusion  of  anything  else. 

On  top  of  that  there  has  been  a  general  increase  in  passenger  traffic. 
It  is  now  running  on  an  average  about  50  percent  over  what  it  was 
running  last  year,  and  the  railroads  are  also  faced  with  the  prospect 
that  as  the  passenger  car,  the  private  passenger  car,  ceases  to  be  used 
in  intercity  transportation  through  gasoline  rationing  or  voluntary 
restriction,  that  much  of  the  load  of  intercity  travel  which  those 
passenger  cars  have  carried  will  be  transferred  to  the  railroads.  So 
they  are  facing  a  situation  where  their  equipment  is  likely  to  be  very 
fully  occupied,  if  not  overoccupied,  without  establishing  commuta- 
tion service  to  and  from  these  war  plants.  They  have  done  that  in 
some  cases.  A  singular  thii  g  there,  by  the  way,  is  in  several  cases 
where  there  has  been  terrific  pressure  to  get  trams  put  on  to  serve 
these  plants,  or  new  bus  lines,  that  they  are  not  used  after  they  are 
put  on.     I  was  talking  to  a  commissioner  from  South  Carolina  vester- 


day.  There  was  tremendous  pressure  to  get  the  Southern  Railway 
to  put  on  a  train  to  serve  the  naval  station  at  Charleston.  He  told 
me  since  that  train  had  been  put  on  it  had  carried  less  than  10  passen- 
gers a  day. 

I  saw  an  advertisement  the  other  day  of  the  bus  companies  which 
had  put  on  new  lines  to  serve  the  Willow  Run  plant  of  the  Ford  Co.,  28 
miles  outside  of  Detroit,  and  those  bus  lines  are  advertising  for  pas- 
sengers. They  are  running  at  a  loss  now.  So  long  as  the  worker  is 
able  to  use  his  passenger  car  he  will  not  use  anything  else ;  the  time  is 
coming  when  he  will  use  something  else,  but  I  think  it  will  be  difficult 
for  the  railroads  to  take  care  of  much  of  that  burden  through  the 
establishment  of  commutation  service  for  the  reasons  I  have  indicated. 

Furthermore,  in  some  cases  the  only  service  of  that  kind  that  could 
be  given  would  be  over  main  lines.  That  is  true  of  the  Michigan 
Central  in  the  case  of  the  Ford  bomber  plant  at  Willow  Run.  On 
the  other  hand,  a  terrific  amount  of  freight  moves  over  that  line,  and 
the  same  thing  in  the  case  of  the  Higgins  plant  in  New  Orleans, 
located  on  the  L.  &  N.  outside  of  New  Orleans;  that  single-track  line 
there  which  they  are  proposing  to  double-track  has  been  handling  a 
tremendous  amount  of  freight  business,  and  it  is  difficult,  particularly 
on  the  single-track  line,  to  work  commutation  trains  in  the  morning 
with  one  every  so  many  minutes,  without  interfering  with  the  opera- 
tion of  freight  trains  when  the  freight  traffic  is  heavy.  Furthermore, 
you  will  find  the  workers  at  these  defense  plants  are  scattered  over 
a  wide  expanse  of  country.  I  have  seen  the  maps  showing  where 
they  are  located  and  they  are  located  here,  there,  and  everywhere 
within  a  radius  of  25  miles  of  the  plant.  If  you  establish  train 
service  you  still  have  the  problem  of  getting  them  to  and  away  from 
the  stations. 


I  have  greater  hopes  for  the  bus  lines,  and  from  the  street  railway 
systems,  which  are  mainly  bus  systems  these  days.  The  Detroit 
Street  Railway  Co.  is  going  into  bus  service  out  to  the  Willow  Run 
plant.  One  of  the  things  we  are  encouraging  street  railways  to  do 
is  to  utilize  their  existing  rails  and  rail  cars  to  the  utmost  possible 
extent,  even  by  pulling  in  old  rattletrap  cars  which  have  gone  into 
the  barns,  so  they  can  relieve  busses  for  this  outside  service.  We 
are  trying  to  get  busses  for  these  defense  plants  by  curtailing  certain 
bus  service  elsewhere.  For  example,  we  have  stopped  sightseeing 
busses  and  they  are  now  going  into  defense-plant  work.  We  have 
stopped  chartered  service  and  have  cut  down  the  regular  bus  service 
and  are  encouraging  pooling  of  service  for  the  purpose  of  releasing 
busses  which  can  be  used  at  these  plants. 

The  Third  Avenue  Railway  in  New  York  proposed  to  substitute 
busses  for  rail  service  on  Third  Avenue.  I  think  that  we  had  300 
new  busses  going  in  service  there.  We  stopped  that  and  made  them 
keep  on  with  their  old  rail  service,  and  those  busses  were  taken  over 
by  the  Navy  Department  for  use  in  various  places. 

You  will  be  interested  to  know  that  the  cars  which  were  being 
operated  on  the  Second  Avenue  Elevated  in  New  York,  which  has  been 
torn  down,  will  be  used  here  and  there  throughout  the  country  where 
conditions  are  suitable  for  augmenting  the  service  to  and  from  defense 


I  think  it  may  be  possible  in  some  cities  like  New  York  and  Chicago 
to  release  some  of  the  busses  from  regular  service  because  their  traffic 
has  not  increased  the  way  it  has  in  some  of  the  smaller  cities.  I 
think  the  Fifth  Avenue  Coach  Co.  agreed  to  release  30  or  40  busses 
the  other  day. 

The  Chairman.  As  I  understand,  Mr.  Eastman,  the  Maritime  Com- 
mission the  other  day  entered  into  a  contract  with  the  Key  System 
for  transportation  of  workers  in  San  Francisco  Bay  and  Terminal 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Has  airy  arrangement  been  made  with  similar 
mass  transportation  facilities  for  the  aircraft  plants  in  California,  do 
you  know? 

Mr.  Eastman.  No.  The  rail  lines  out  there  will  have  to  be  built 
in  order  to  produce  a  similar  situation.  In  the  cases  that  you  speak 
of,  where  the  Maritime  Commission  is  arranging  for  that  service,  as  I 
understand  it,  there  are  rail  lines  already  there;  that  is  one  of  the  places 
where  perhaps  some  of  these  Second  Avenue  Elevated  cars  from 
New  York  City  will  be  used.  It  also  happens  the  Key  System  you 
speak  of  and  the  Southern  Pacific  for  a  long  time  competed  in  service 
from  Oakland  and  other  points  across  the  bay  into  San  Francisco, 
and  finally  the  Southern  Pacific  gave  up  that  service  in  favor  of  the 
Key  System,  and  the  Southern  Pacific  cars  are  available  for  use  to 
and  from  some  of  these  defense  plants  out  there. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  run  into  the  freeze  order  in  matters  of 
this  kind  in  getting  new  rails? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes;  as  far  as  building  new  lines  is  concerned. 

The  Chairman.  But  there  is  nothing  against  the  utilization  of  old 
lines  or  rails,  is  there? 

Mr.  Eastman.  When  the  old  lines  are  torn  up,  sometimes  the  rail 
is  only  good  for  scrap;  sometimes  it  can  be  re-laid,  and  when  it  can 
be  re-laid  there  is  a  terrific  demand  for  it.  The  Army  has  all  sorts  of 
places  where  it  wants  re-lay  rail. 


Mr.  Arnold.  Mr.  Eastman,  we  understand  that  the  War  Manpower 
Commission,  on  May  21,  1942,  announced  that  it  would  instruct  the 
Office  of  Defense  Transportation,  together  with  the  Farm  Securities 
Administration,  to  assure  adequate  transportation  facilities  to  move 
migrant  agricultural  workers.  Has  anything  been  done  along  that 

Mr.  Eastman.  Mr.  Beyer,  do  you  know  anything  about  that? 

Mr.  Beyer.  That  was  the  directive  we  looked  up  this  morning. 

Mr.  Eastman.  I  wish  you  would  say  a  word  about  it. 

Mr.  Beyer.  The  War  Manpower  Commission  has  advised  that  a 
directive  would  be  issued  and  has  indicated  in  a  broad  way  what  the 
directive  would  be  aimed  at,  which  is  in  essence  what  you  have  just 
mentioned,  but  the  directive  has  not  been  issued  as  yet;  it  is  still  in 
the  making. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Has  any  agreement  been  reached  with  the  Office  of 
Price  Administration  as  regards  the  rationing  of  gasoline  and  tires  to 
insure  adequate  transportation  facilities  for  agricultural  workers? 


Mr.  Eastman.  I  am  not  able  to  tell  you  what  their  present  plan  in 
the  East  provides  with  respect  to  agricultural  workers,  but  I  am  quite 
sure  that  such  workers  rank  high  up  on  the  scale  of  necessary  trans- 

Mr.  Beyer.  May  I  add  something  to  that  observation? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Beyer.  I  understand  that  if  agricultural  workers  could  show  to 
a  gasoline  station,  or  some  place  where  gasoline  was  dispensed,  so- 
called  referrals  of  the  United  States  Employment  Service,  they  would 
be  allowed  the  necessary  gas  to  go  on. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eastman,  as  Chairman  of  the  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission  you  have  had  occasion  to  investigate  the  interstate 
movement  by  automobile  or  truck  of  beet  workers  from  Texas  to 
Michigan  and  Ohio.  Do  you  think  trucking  of  workers  by  private 
agents  and  contractors  should  be  curtailed  in  order  to  conserve  trans- 
portation equipment? 

Mr.  Eastman.  As  I  recall  the  investigation  we  made  of  that  subject, 
we  found  it  was  unauthorized  and  unlawful.  Under  the  Interstate 
Commerce  Act  no  one  can  transport  passengers  in  interstate  commerce 
for  hire  by  truck  or  bus  without  operating  authority  from  the  Inter- 
state Commerce  Commission.  I  think  these  people  we  investigated 
did  not  have  such  authority  and  the  investigation  resulted  in  at  least 
one  prosecution.  I  do  not  think  they  were  common  carrier  truck 
operators  who  have  authority  to  haul  persons  in  interstate  commerce 
for  compensation. 

The  Chairman.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  they  have  been  doing  it.     We 
investigated  that.     You  say  it  is  in  violation  of  law  at  this  time  to 
take  those  workers  in  Texas  and  Oklahoma  and  shoot  them  up  to 
Michigan,  30  or  40  in   1   truck? 
Mr.  Eastman.  Yes. 


Dr.  Lamb.  Last  week,  when  Mr.  Corson  was  here,  he  said  he  was 
trying  to  work  out  an  arrangement  with  your  Office  whereby  your 
Office  would  negotiate  with  the  railroads  for  reduced  fares  for  migrant 
agricultural  workers;  have  you  been  able  to  get  that  any  further 
along — maybe  Mr.  Beyer  could  answer  that? 

Mr.  Eastman.  Mr.  Wilson,  here  [indicating],  is  head  of  my  Division 
of  Rates.  I  might  explain  I  have  no  authority  over  rates  except  a 
direction  in  the  Executive  order  to  negotiate  with  the  carriers  for 
adjustments  of  rates  which  seem  necessary  on  account  of  wartime 

Mr.  Wilson,  have  you  taken  that  particular  subject  up  with  the 

Mr.  Wilson.  The  subject  has  not  been  specifically  taken  up  from  ■ 
the  point  of  view  of  specific  points  of  origin  and  destination  because 
we  have  not  been  given  any  information  with  respect  to  the  volume 
of  movement  or  points  of  origin  and  destination.  We  have,  however, 
discussed  with  the  carriers  what  disposition  they  would  make  of  a 
proposal  to  reduce  rates  either  upon  an  extended  round  trip  or  party- 
ticket  basis.  We  have  not  gone  further  because  we  are  waiting  until 
we  have  more  information  with  respect  to  the  movement.  Last 
January  and  February  the  Department  of  Agriculture  took  up  with 


the  eastern  and  southern  carriers  a  proposal  to  reduce  rates  on  agri- 
cultural workers,  and  that  proposal  was  declined  by  the  carriers  at 
that  time.  The  carriers  are  now  willing  to  transport  workers  at  the 
basic  coach  fare  of  1.65  cents  in  Pacific  territory  and  2.2  cents  in 
Eastern  territory;  those  arrangements  can  be  made  without  further 

Dr.  Lamb.  Where  will  you  be  looking  for  this  further  information; 
will  that  be  from  Mr.  Corson's  division? 

Mr.  Wilson.  We  will  have  to  find  out  whether  the  workers  will 
move  in  parties  or  individually  or  from  specific  points  of  origin  or 
scattered  points,  and  where  they  are  destined. 

Dr.  Lamb.  Thus  far  you  have  not  had  those  estimates  furnished 
your  office? 

Mr.  Wilson.  No. 


Mr.  Arnold.  I  see,  Mr.  Eastman,  you  have  recommended  that 
county  and  State  fairs  be  dispensed  with  in  order  to  save  the  tires  of 
farmers  and  those  who  attend  the  fairs  and  also  to  save  railroad 
traffic.  Do  you  anticipate  that  county  fairs  will  be  willing  or  able  this 
year  to  comply  with  that  request,  or  have  their  arrangements  gone 
ahead  so  .far  they  cannot? 

Mr.  Eastman.  I  will  ask  Mr.  McCarthy,  who  has  been  in  touch 
with  that,  to  answer. 

Mr.  McCarthy.  There  are  several  fair  sponsors  who  have  indicated 
they  would  curtail  their  efforts  this  year,  knowing  of  the  attitude  of  the 
Office  of  Defense  Transportation  and  knowing  we  were  to  issue  that 
statement,  and  there  is  a  question  in  the  minds  of  these  sponsors  as  to 
whether  they  can  make  a  financial  success  of  the  conduct  of  the  fair 
in  the  absence  of  people  traveling  from  afar.  There  has,  however, 
been  no  universal  consent  to  curtail  activities.  Most  of  those  fairs, 
of  course,  occur  in  the  late  summer  and  fall,  and  I  believe  our  an- 
nouncement will  tend  to  cause  a  stopping  of. further  plans  and  there 
will  be  a  definite  curtailment  in  the  number  held. 

Mr.  Eastman.  As  I  recall  it,  Mr.  McCarthy,  we  did  get  out  a  state- 
ment on  that  some  time  ago,  after  consulting  with  the  Department  of 
Agriculture,  did  we  not. 

Mr.  McCarthy.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Arnold.  Of  course,  in  your  opinion  it  is  other  unnecessary 
travel  by  automobile,  as  well  as  trains,  that  is  to  be  curtailed? 

Mr.  Eastman.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Arnold.  I  imagine  there  would  be  a  great  deal  of  consternation 
created  amongst  the  various  fair  boards  of  the  country. 

Mr.  McCarthy.  That  consternation  occurred  primarily  in  early 
April.  The  Secretary  of  Agriculture  sent  a  representative  to  talk  with 
us  and  suggested  we  write  a  letter  to  the  Secretary,  which  we  did,  and 
he  broadcast  the  idea.  The  consternation  occurred  at  that  time  and 
seemingly  has  quieted  down. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eastman,  of  course,  we  all  know  that  the  trans- 
portation problem  is  one  of  the  most  critical  in  our  war  effort  today 
and  that  there  will  never  be  any  more  critical  year  than  this  year  1942 ; 
but  I  still  have  an  abounding  faith  in  the  American  people  and  I  think 
if  called  upon  they  would  furnish  their  own  passenger  cars  to  help 

$0396— 42—  pt.  33 9 


transport  these  war  workers  to  the  plants.  Has  that  idea  been  tried 
out?  In  Oakland,  Calif.,  I  know  people  who  would  be  willing  to  take 
their  own  cars  and  transport  war  workers  to  work. 

Mr.  Eastman.  The  problem  really  is  to  prevent  the  cars  now  being 
used  by  war  workers  from  disappearing  from  the  scene ;  in  other  words, 
to  curtail  the  wasteful  use  and  make  them  last  as  long  as  possible. 
The  necessity  for  providing  them  with  tires  may  come  a  little  later  on, 
and  I  am  afraid  it  will,  but  at  the  present  time  most  of  them  are  pretty 
well  equipped  with  tires. 

The  Chairman.  But  they  must  be  gradually  going  down. 

Mr.  Eastman.  Yes.  I  think  as  far  as  the  American  people  are 
concerned,  they  are  only  too  glad  to  do  anything  in  the  world  that 
will  contribute  to  the  winning  of  the  war.  The  difficulty  is  that 
sometimes  they  are  not  satisfied  that  what  is  proposed  is  necessary; 
they  are  not  clear  what  they  are  being  asked  to  do  will  contribute 
to  the  winning  of  the  war.  But  when  you  can  get  the  story  across 
to  them  and  convince  them  of  the  facts,  I  do  not  have  the  slightest 
doubt  about  their  willingness  to  respond,  at  least  the  great  majority. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eastman,  are  there  any  other  observations 
you  care  to  make? 


Mr.  Eastman.  The  only  thing  I  care  to  suggest  is,  in  one  of  the 
letters  you  sent  me  was  the  suggestion  that  the  Office  of  Defense 
Transportation  ought  to  appoint  a  special  officer  who  could  take 
charge  of  the  transportation  problems  in  connection  with  the  move- 
ment of  migratory  workers.  I  think  we  are  equipped  to  do  what- 
ever is  necessary  in  that  connection,  at  least  so  far  as  railroads  and 
busses  are  concerned;  we  have  the  Division  of  Traffic  Movement 
headed  by  Mr.  McCarthy,  an  experienced  railroad  passenger  officer. 
The  problem  follows  now,  how  many  workers  it  has  been  decided 
should  move,  and  between  what  points,  and  when  it  is  decided  to 
move  them;  that  would  be  quite  similar  to  the  problem  the  Army 
faces  in  troop  movement.  The  Army  negotiates  with  the  railroads 
and  arranges  for  troop  movement  all  the  time.  If  you  can  reduce 
this  down  to  specific  movements  you  want  the  railroads  to  make, 
we  can  take  that  up  the  same  way  the  Army  does  and  arrange  for 
those  movements.  I  don't  think  we  need  a  new  man  in  order  to 
undertake  that.  It  would  be  more  difficult  in  the  case  of  busses,  I 
think,  because  I  doubt  whether  they  would  be  able  to  supply  special 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eastman,  and  gentlemen,  we  appreciate 
deeply  your  coming  here  this  morning  and  we  are  very  grateful  to 
you  for  your  valuable  contribution. 

Mr.  Eastman.  Thank  you. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Pierce,  do  you  desire  to  make  a  statement? 


Mr.  Pierce.  Mr.  Chairman  and  members  of  the  committee,  first 
I  want  to  congratulate  this  committee  and  its  members  for  the  work 
they  have  done.     We  have  seen  many  committees  appointed  in  10 


years  of  service  in  Congress,  but  I  think  you  are  the  outstanding 
committee ;  you  have  plowed  new  ground  and  done  things,  and  I 
want  to  congratulate  the  Chairman  and  every  one  of  the  members 
of  the  committee  associated  in  the  work. 

You  have  not  been  muckraking;  you  have  met  a  condition  that 
has  developed  in  our  country  and  you  have  tried  to  meet  it  in  a 
straightforward  way,  and  I  think  you  are  going  to  accomplish  much. 
It  indeed  must  have  been  a  pleasure  to  have  been  a  member  of  this 

I  had  the  pleasure  of  serving  on  one  committee  for  2  years  and  we 
might  have  done  something,  but  nothing  has  gone  into  the  law  books 
as  yet  showing  what  we  attempted  to  do  in  that  investigation. 

This  is  an  old  problem.  My  mind  goes  back  through  half  a  century 
when  I  used  to  run  a  threshing  outfit.  We  required  30  men  and  we 
reciuited  our  men  out  of  the  itinerant  workers  that  came  from  the 
South.  These  men  would  commence  in  the  South,  in  Lower  Cali- 
fornia, east  of  the  Rockies,  and  go  on  to  Oklahoma,  Kansas,  Texas, 
gradually  working  their  way  north  with  the  season,  ending  the  season 
in  Canada.  Each  man  took  his  own  bed  with  him  and  took  care  of 
himself;  he  even  cooked  his  own  meals  by  the  roadside  and  found  his 
own  method  of  transportation,  but  in  this  day  and  age  we  have  to 
approach  the  problem  in  a  different  way. 

Speaking  particularly  of  Oregon,  we  have  some  crops  there  that 
demand  quite  a  number  of  itinerant  workers,  and  they  drift  in  and 
out.  Thirty  or  forty  years  ago  they  would  close  the  stores  and 
schools  and  everybody  would  go  out  and  work  in  the  fields.  That  has 
not  been  the  case  in  the  last  few  years;  they  rely  on  the  workers  who 
come  north  to  help  them,  and  then  drift  on. 

We  are  now  growing  in  Oregon  quite  a  good  many  of  these  crops 
that  demand  migrant  labor.  The  green  pea  business  in  the  last  few 
years  has  become  a  major  industry  in  parts  of  Oregon,  and  that 
harvest  starts  about  this  time  of  year  and  runs  for  about  2  months 
and  the  help  work  night  and  day.  It  is  only  a  few  hours  from  the 
time  the  peas  arc  picked  until  they  are  in  the  can. 

It  seems  to  me  we  have  to  work  out  a  plan  to  take  care  of  these 
itinerant  workers,  and  I  think  we  will  have  to  have  some  department 
that  will  make  it  its  business  to  work  this  out. 

I  am  not  acquainted  with  the  details  of  the  legislation  you  have  in 
view  but  I  am  in  hopes  something  will  come  from  this  committee 
that  will  provide  methods  of  finding  out  where  labor  is  needed  and  how 
it  can  be  transported  to  that  place,  and  I  think  that  will  have  to  be 
done  under  the  supervision  of  the  Government  and  not  by  the  States 
or  voluntarily. 

I  was  disappointed  to  hear  Mr.  Eastman's  testimony  that  the  rail- 
roads apparently  would-  not  be  of  much  value  in  the  transportation  of 
these  itinerant  workers.  I  had  reached  the  place  in  my  reasoning  and 
slight  knowledge  of  the  matter  where  I  thought  the  railroads  would 
substitute  for  the  busses  and  private  cars.  I  am  well  aware  of  the 
fact  the  private  car  has  got  to  give  up  the  right-of-way  quickly  because 
there  will  not  be  any  rubber  for  them  to  run  on,  and  therefore  we 
have  to  find  some  other  method. 

I  hope  in  the  legislation  you  propose  you  will  point  the  way  by  which 
the  Railroad  Administrator,  if  he  cannot  find  railroad  facilities  to 
take  itinerant  workers  from  place  to  place,  will  then  have  it  done  with 


bus  transportation.  There  is  a  great  opportunity  here  for  real  legisla- 
tion, Mr  Chairman  and  members  of  the  Committee;  you  have  a 
real  field. 

I  congratualte  you  on  the  work  you  have  done  and  I  want  to  aid 
when  the  bill  comes  before  Congress. 

I  would  like  to  incorporate  a  letter  I  got  from  quite  a  large  operator 
in  which  he  outlines  the  situation  quite  clearly;  he  is  a  fruit  exporter 
out  in  our  country. 

The  Chairman.  You  will  be  permitted  to  do  that. 

(The  letter  referred  to  follows:) 

Hood  River,  Oreg., 

June  15,  194B. 
Mr.  Walter  M.  Pierce, 

Representative  Second  Congressional 

Oregon  District,  House  of  Representatives, 

Washington,  D.  C. 

Dear  Representative  Pierce:  We  are  very  much  interested  in  your  letter 
to  H.  G.  Miller,  manager  of  The  Dalles  Cooperative  Growers  of  The  Dalles,  in 
regard  to  legislation  to  endeavor  to  take  action  which  would  enable  agricultural 
interests  to  secure  help  in  the  harvesting  of  various  kinds  of  crops  in  this  country, 
not  only  this  year  but  looking  forward  to  1943. 

We  believe  this  is  the  most  serious  problem  affecting  agriculture  with  the 
Selective  Service  taking  a  large  part  of  the  young  men  from  the  farms  and  the 
defense  industries  taking  still  additional  quantities.  The  farm  labor  supply  has 
reached  the  point  where  there  is  practically  no  migratory  labor  available  such  as 
is  ordinarily  the  case.  The  farmer,  we  believe,  in  most  cases  is  able  to  start  his 
farming  operations,  but  where  additional  help  is  needed,  which  calls  for  labor 
other  than  his  own  family,  very  serious  situations  develop. 

In  the  Hood  River  district,  which  is  representative  of  the  other  orchard  interests 
of  the  Pacific  Northwest,  our  serious  problem  is  in  the  cherry  picking  and  fruit 
thinning  coming  in  June  and  July  and  in  the  harvesting  of  our  fruit,  the  peak  of 
which  hits  us  in  September  and  October. 

The  current  issue  of  Life  this  week  depicts  very  graphically  what  is  happening 
to  the  cherry  and  vegetable  growers  in  California  at  the  present  time — the  state- 
ment being  made  that  probably  25  percent  of  certain  crops  in  that  State  is  being 
wasted  on  account  of  the  inability  to  secure  labor.  This  district  and,  in  fact,  all 
Oregon  districts  recognize  the  seriousness  of  the  situation.  The  schools  all  over 
the  State  are  generally  cooperating  by  dismissing  school  early  this  year  and  in  this 
district,  all  of  the  grades  from  the  seventh  to  the  twelfth  will  not  start  until  6 
weeks  later  than  usual.  School  children  are  now  working  in  the  orchards  thin- 
ning apples  and  will  be  picking  cherries  when  the  cherry  harvesting  season  starts 
in  about  10  days.  We  have,  in  addition  to  the  United  States  Employment  Office 
here,  a  grower  labor  center  which  is  coordinating  all  the  labor  activities  of  this 
district.  All  of  the  business  interests  of  this  locality  will  cooperate  in  assisting 
in  the  harvest  as  much  as  possible- — school  children  will  be  working — hundreds  of 
letters  have  gone  out  to  people  who  ordinarily  work  during  the  harvest  period 
urging  them  and  their  families  and  friends  to  assist  in  the  harvest  this  year. 

We  are  still  fearful  that  there  will  be  a  shortage  even  with  all  the  precautions 
and  every  avenue  of  possible  help  explored. 

We  considered  the  suggestion  in  yoUr  letter  that  we  must  have  legislation  giving 
some  person  in  authority  to  move  experienced  labor  from  point  to  point  as  the 
vital  thing  which  may  enable  us  to  save  the  25  percent  which,  from  reports,  are 
being  lost  to  growers  of  some  products  in  California.  If  such  a  program  as  you 
suggest  can  function  within  the  next  90  days  much  valuable  food  supplies  can  be 
saved  to  the  great  public  good  and  certainly  to  the  immense  benefit  of  the  farmers 
who  worked  so  long  and  earnestly  to  increase  the  food  supplies  of  this  country. 
We  believe  the  move  to  allow  Mexican  laborers  to  limited  entrances  into  this 
country  to  assist  in  the  labor  shortage  should  be  permitted.  We  believe  the 
Japanese  should  be  not  only  permitted  but  compelled  to  assist  in  harvest  operations 
where  they  will  not  endanger  the  Nation's  safety.  The  movement  of  migratory 
workers  from  one  district  to  another  should  be  ceded  so  that  valuable  work 
periods  will  not  be  lost.  We  think  that  soldiers  in  camps  should  be  permitted  to 
return  and  assist  in  harvest  operations  where  such  movements  do  not  interfere 


with  the  war  efforts.     All  or  any  other  projects  which  may  so  assist  food  preser- 
vation are  certainly  worthy  of  your  interest  and  consideration. 
We  appreciate  your  cooperation  and  interest  in  this  vital  matter. 
Yours  very  truly, 

Duckwall  Bros.,  Inc., 
John  C.  Duckwall. 

Mr.  Pierce.  I  would  like  to  include  that  as  part  of  my  remarks. 
The  Chairman.  Thank  you. 


The  Chairman.  I  understand,  Mr.  Havenner,  as  a  member  of  the 
State  Railroad  Commission  of  California,  you  have  been  in  Washing- 
ton for  about  a  month  and  that  you  are  deeply  interested  in  this 
transportation  problem,  especially  in  its  connection  with  the  war 
plants;  that  you  have  investigated  the  rubber  situation  and  the  rail 
situation  and  have  made  a  study  of  them.  I  have  seen  the  rather 
exhaustive  survey  of  the  rubber  situation  and  the  rail  situation  in  the 
State  of  California  made  by  the  railroad  commission;  this  study  is 
probably  the  only  one  of  its  kind  in  the  country. 

Is  there  anything  you  would  like  to  say  to  the  committee  this 
morning,  Mr.  Havenner? 

Mr.  Havenner.  Mr.  Chairman  and  members  of  the  committee,  I 
know  the  hour  is  late,  so  I  am  not  going  to  take  up  much  of  your  time. 


Shortly  after  our  entry  into  the  war  the  California  Railroad  Com- 
mission realized  a  shortage  of  rubber  would  present  a  very  critical 
problem  in  connection  with  the  transportation  of  war  workers  to  and 
from  their  jobs,  and  the  Commission  about  4  months  ago  instituted 
this  survey  of  transportation  conditions  surrounding  all  of  the  basic 
war-production  plants  in  California.  That  survey  has  been  in  progress 
for  about  4  months.  I  may  say  we  circulated  half  a  million  question- 
naires among  the  workers  in  war  plants  out  there,  detailed  question- 
naires with  respect  to  their  riding  habits,  the  condition  of  their  auto- 
mobiles, and  so  forth,  and  we  got  a  very  high  percentage  of  returns  by 
reason  of  the  cooperation  of  the  plant  management;  we  got  almost  a 
100-percent  return.  We  tabulated  the  results  of  those  questionnaires 
and  chartered  them  on  maps.  This  tabulation  showed  that  in  Cali- 
fornia, as  Mr.  Eastman  said,  from  80  to  more  than  90  percent  of  the 
war  workers  travel  by  private  automobile ;  it  showed  that  the  average 
private  automobile  transporting  war  workers  carried  only  1.6  persons 
to  and  from  the  job,  and  I  am  sorry  to  say  that  a  more  recent  report 
which  we  have  received  within  the  last  few  days  indicates  that  that 
percentage  is  dropping,  the  last  we  had  being  1.4  persons  per  private 
automobile,  which  indicates  the  efforts  toward  securing  voluntary 
reduction  in  the  use  of  automobiles  by  the  workers  have  not  suc- 
ceeded up  to  this  time. 

More  than  80  percent  of  the  war  workers  are  working  in  plants 
which  have  no  mass  transportation  or  very  inadequate  mass  trans- 
portation at  this  time.     I  may  say  also  that  the  figures  on  the  condi- 


tion  of  the  tires  showed  that  40  percent  of  the  automobiles  used  by 
war  workers  in  California  will  be  out  of  commission  in  6  months  by 
reason  of  tire  failure  unless  additional  rubber  is  made  available;  75 
percent  in  1  year;  85  percent  in  18  months. 

The  Commission  therefore  felt  that  provision  should  be  made  for 
the  establishment  of  some  sort  of  stand-by  service  which  could  func- 
tion in  the  event  of  a  rubber  failure,  and  the  Commission  made  rec- 
ommendations for  the  establishment  of  such  stand-by  rail  service  in 
all  of  the  principal  war  production  areas  of  the  State.  In  their 
recommendation  they  utilize  wherever  possible  the  existing  rails  and 
provide  for  the  shortest  possible  connection  by  the  laying  of  avail- 
able rail  from  any  place  it  can  be  obtained,  and  by  the  acquisition 
of  some  equipment  for  the  rolling  stock. 

The  Maritime  Commission,  as  has  been  stated  previously,  has 
pretty  well  taken  care  of  the  transportation  of  its  shipyard  workers 
in  California.  It  has  entered  into  a  contract  with  the  Key  System — 
Mr.  Eastman,  I  think,  was  misinformed  when  he  said  they  were 
going  to  utilize  all  existing  tracks;  the  line  which  they  have  con- 
tracted for  from  Oakland  to  Richmond  involves  construction  of  about 
QY2  miles  of  rail  not  now  in  place.  Personally,  I  admire  the  way  the 
Maritime  Commission  has  tackled  this  problem;  I  think  they  have 
done  a  job  which  has  not  been  done  by  any  other  Government  agency 
directly  interested  in  war  production.  They  are  considering  today 
in  its  final  draft  a  similar  contract  with  the  Pacific  Electric  System 
in  Los  Angeles  for  transportation  between  Los  Angeles  and  the  Ter- 
minal Island  area  where  shipyards  are  located,  and  that  also  involves 
the  laying  of  some  additional  track  as  well  as  the  utilization  of  exist- 
ing track;  it  involves,  I  believe,  the  purchase  of  old  abandoned  cars 
some  of  which  the  Key  route  also  succeeded  in  purchasing. 

Since  we  have  been  here  we  have  talked  to  the  heads  of  the  trans- 
portation systems  of  the  Army  and  Navy,  and  also  to  Mr.  Eastman's 
department.  We  tried  to  point  out  that  the  situation  at  aircraft 
factories  in  southern  California  was  as  critical  as  at  the  shipyards, 
and  they  recognize  it.  We  have  made  recommendations  for  similar 
service  to  all  of  the  major  airplane  factories  in  the  Los  Angeles  area, 
and  we  were  told  by  representatives  of  the  Army  and  Navy  and  the 
O.  D.  C.  that  they  recognized  the  necessity  for  this  service  and  that 
they  would  endeavor  to  arrange  some  manner  of  financing  and  con- 
tracting for  it. 

So  we  are  hopeful  at  least  that  in  the  not-distant  future  a  usable 
stand-by  service  which  may  become  a  major  operating  service  for  the 
employees  of  the  war  production  plants  in  California  will  be  put  into 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Havenner;  we  appre- 
ciate your  coming  here. 

Mr.  Havenner.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  stand  adjourned. 

(Thereupon,  at  12:10  p.  m.,  the  committee  stood  adjourned.) 


During  the  first  year  of  its  existence,  when  this  committee  was 
known  as  the  Select  Committee  to  Investigate  the  Interstate  Migra- 
tion of  Destitute  Citizens,  witnesses  at  its  New  York  hearings  (see 
Part  1)  and  at  its  Montgomery  hearings  (see  Part  2)  had  testified  as 
to  migration  and  related  conditions  in  New  Jersey  and  Florida. 
Especially  in  the  latter  State,  it  was  realized  that  further  investiga- 
tion was  advisable.  Pressure  of  other  business  made  it  impossible 
to  plan  hearings  in  Florida  until  February  1942.  After  a  staff  had 
been  in  the  field  for  some  time,  studying  the  area  and  laying  the 
foundation  for  a  hearing  in  late  February,  the  committee's  schedule 
was  interrupted  by  the  necessity  of  an  immediate  investigation  of  the 
evacuation  of  enemy  aliens  from  Pacific  coast  areas.  (See  Parts  29, 
30,  31,  and  Reports  1911  and  2124.)  Subsequent  to  that  investiga- 
tion the  committee  found  it  impossible  to  reschedule  formal  Florida 
hearings.  Therefore,  and  in  view  of  the  large  volume  of  migration 
to  the  south  Florida  vegetable  and  sugarcane  areas,  Joan  Pascal, 
Harold  G.  Tipton,  and  Irene  Hageman,  members  of  the  committee's 
field  staff,  who  had  been  working  there  were  instructed  and  authorized 
to  return  to  Florida  and  take  informal  testimony. 

The  following  pages  contain  the  testimony  taken  in  this  area,  as  well 
as  a  number  of  supplementary  exhibits  including  three  reports  prepared 
by  the  committee's  field  and  research  staffs,  all  of  which  have  been 
accepted  for  the  record  of  the  committee  and  ordered  published. 

APRIL  25,   1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  please  state  your  name,  position  and  address 
for  the  record? 

Dr.  Neller.  Joseph  R.  Neller,  biochemist  in  charge,  Everglades 
Experiment  Station,  University  of  Florida,  Belle  Glade,  Fla. 

Mr.  Tipton.  The  committee  received  the  excellent  statement  you 
prepared  and  it  will  go  into  the  record  as  it  stands. 


Agricultuke  in  the  Florida  Everglades 

There  was  some  farming  along  the  shores  of  Lake  Okeechobee  as  early  as  1900 
but  it  was  not  until  after  the  main  drainage  canals  were  completed  in  1914  that 
attempts  were  made  to  develop  the  sawgrass  peat  lands  which  comprise  the  greater 
portion  of  the  Everglades.  These  attempts  were  failures  until  the  research  work 
of  the  Everglades  experiment  station,  in  conjunction  with  practical  observations 
of  farmers,  showed  that  copper  sulfate  was  needed  in  soil  treatments  to  bring 
the  raw  lands  into  production. 



At  the  present  time  there  are  about  100,000  acres  in  production  of  which  about 
30,000  acres  are  growing  sugarcane  with  truck  crops  over  most  of  the  rest  of  the 
cropped  area.  A  few  thousand  acres  are  in  pastures  for  cattle.  Several  hundred 
acres  per  year  of  new  land  is  being  cropped  mostly  for  vegetables. 

Considerable  of  the  area  that  is  being  farmed  is  not  under  good  water  control. 
Thus  the  custard  apple  muck  lands  near  the  lake  often  become  too  dry  during  the 
dry  season  while  the  sawgrass  lands  that  are  not  under  adequate  pump  control 
may  be  temporarily  flooded  with  resultant  loss  of  crops.  Those  lands  that  are 
in  subdrainage  districts  are  subjected  to  some  water  control  but  for  most  of  them 
there  is  not  enough  for  the  sensitive  truck  crops.  Accordingly  more  and  more  of 
the  better  type  farms  are  establishing  their  own  pumps  to  augment  the  district 
pumping.  There  appears  to  be  no  hesitation  on  the  part  of  farmers  to  have  their 
farms  outside  of  a  subdrainage  district  and  to  depend  upon  their  own  water 
control  pumps,  thereby  avoiding  subdrainage  taxes. 

Water  control  provides  for  irrigation  as  well  as  for  water  removal  and  the 
pumps  are  constructed  to  pump  water  either  on  or  off  the  land.  The  practice 
of  moling  the  fields  has  become  widespread,  and  these  mole  lines  are  of  benefit 
for  the  more  rapid  movement  of  water  either  from  or  to  the  fields.  Improve- 
ments in  water  control  are  taking  place  each  year  and  date  back  to  the  comple- 
tion of  the  federally  constructed  dike  around  the  southern  end  of  the  lake. 

It  is  estimated  that  about  500,000  acres  of  the  Everglades  consist  of  lands  that 
could  be  farmed.  New  farms  are  being  developed  from  this  area  at  a  more  rapid 
rate  now  than  heretofore.  The  present  active  demand  for  agricultural  products 
has  come  at  a  time  when  a  new  area  has  been  made  accessible  and  possible  of 
development  along  Highway  26,  extending  from  South  Bay  southward.  The 
highway  provides  a  means  of  access  to  the  area  adjacent  to  it  while  the  enlarged 
canal  along  the  highway  makes  it  possible  to  establish  water  control.  Expansion 
of  the  farmed  area  will  depend  not  only  upon  market  demand  but  upon  the  con- 
struction of  roads  and  water-control  system  as  well. 

The  sawgrass  and  weed  cover  on  new  areas  not  cropped  before  are  comparatively 
easily  run  down  and  plowed  under  with  large  plows  drawn  by  caterpillar  tractors. 
Establishment  of  water  control  is  a  matter  of  machine  digging  of  canals  and  ditches 
and  the  placement  of  pumps.  The  total  cost  is  estimated  at  $25  to  $40  an  acre 
plus  the  original  value  cf  the  land.  The  annual  expense  thereafter  amounts  to  $3 
to  $5  a  year,  this  to  include  depreciation,  etc.,  as  well  as  operating  costs. 

Soil-conservation  experiments  at  the  Everglades  station  have  shown  that  the 
higher  the  water  table  is  held  in  these  peat  lands  the  less  the  subsidence  or  soil 
loss  by  oxidation  and  shrinkage.  A  water  table  held  high  enough  for  good  farm- 
ing practices  results  in  less  soil  loss  than  where  the  water  level  is  under  less  con- 
trol. Most  of  the  Everglades  is  overdrained  during  the  dry  season,  and  the  main 
goal  of  the  soil-conservation  program  is  to  keep  the  water  level  from  getting  too 
low  on  the  unused  lands.  Achievement  of  this  goal  will  also  conserve  or  guarantee 
municipal  water  supplies  for  the  lower  east  coast. 

Ownership  of  the  lands  now  in  use  is  not  in  large  holdings  except  for  those  of 
the  sugar  corporation.  While  a  large  proportion  of  the  lands  are  rented  to  the 
farmers  the  trend  appears  to  be  for  owner  operation  or  management.  These  units 
are  in  the  large-scale  farming  group  of  from  one-half  to  several  sections  per  farm. 
The  highly  mechanized  nature  of  farm  operations  to  which  the  flat,  stoneless,  and 
treeless  peat  lands  lend  themselves,  together  with  the  mass  handling  of  field  crews 
for  the  hand-labor  phases  make  it  possible  for  large  farms  to  be  operated  more 
economically  than  small  ones.  Packing-house  and  marketing  operations  are  in 
some  cases  also  a  part  of  a  large  farmer's  sphere  thereby  saving  him  packing  and 
commission  charges. 

The  organic  soils  of  the  Everglades  make  efficient  use  of  the  necessary  ferti- 
lizers that  are  added.  Although  nitrates  leach  quite  readily  from  these  soils 
little  nitrogen  fertilizer  needs  to  be  added  because  of  the  high  nitrogen  content 
of  the  soil.  The  fertilizer  that  has  to  be  added  does  not  leach  excessively  and  the 
soil  does  not  tend  to  make  it  nonavailable  to  crops.  Consequently  for  a  given 
yield  tonnage  there  is  less  fertilizer  expense  than  on  most  soils.  Low  fertilizer 
costs  combined  with  the  ease  by  which  the  peat  and  muck  soils  can  be  worked 
are  factors  that  reduce  the  costs  of  production  over  those  of  other  areas.  On  the 
other  hand,  water-control  operations  are  a  considerable  expense  of  which  there 
is  none  or  very  little  on  most  mineral  soils. 

For  a  decade  there  has  been  a  definite  trend  toward  a  greater  diversification  of 
crops  in  the  Everglades.  For  instance,  the  acreage  planted  to  beans  is  decreasing, 
while  the  total  crop  acreage  is  increasing.  Notable  among  the  crops  that  are 
receiving  more  attention  are  celery,  lettuce,  potatoes,  leafy  crops,  and  pasture 


grasses.  Besides  the  work  that  it  has  been  and  is  doing  with  these  the  Everglades 
Experiment  Station  is  experimenting  with  various  other  crops.  Judging  from 
past  experiences  with  new  crops  some  of  these  may  be  expected  to  come  into 
commercial  production. 

This  progress  in  crop  diversification  is  definitely  helping  to  stabilize  the  agri- 
culture of  the  Everglades  in  making  it  a  less  hazardous  financial  undertaking. 
The  special  technique  and  operation  control  that  is  being  given  to  these  newer 
crops  is  resulting  in  better  farming  and  better  farm  installation  and  equipment. 
It  is  becoming  profitable  to  spend  more  of  the  year  in  active  farm  operations 
which  in  turn  results  in  better  care  of  equipment  and  a  better  farm  upkeep.  In 
all  of  this  development  the  county  agricultural  agents  have  an  important  part  in 
their  agricultural  extension  work.  Incidentally  most  of  the  Everglades  organic 
soil  area  is  in  Palm  Beach  County. 

It  would  seem  wise  that  Everglades  farmers  should  give  as  much  attention  as 
possible  to  the  growing  of  as  many  different  crops  as  is  practical.  This  is  because 
one  of  the  main  difficulties  has  been  the  too  frequent  flooding  of  the  market  and 
oftentimes  total  loss  of  any  returns  from  a  crop. 

The  future  development  of  the  Everglades  will  have  other  problems  to  contend 
with.  An  important  one  will  be  the  necessity  of  a  planned  expansion  of  new 
lands  so  that  surplus  water  pumped  from  them  will  not  exceed  the  capacity  of 
the  ditches  or  canals  located  in  or  adjacent  to  the  farms  already  under  water 
control.  In  general,  the  expansion  of  the  cropped  area  as  a  solid  block,  with  a 
water-control  system  designed  to  pump  the  excess  waters  onto  the  unused  lands, 
would  be  the  most  desirable.  This  same  system  would  also  bring  water  to  the 
farms  during  the  dry  season.  Conservation  of  unused  lands  would  result  from 
such  a  development  and  the  seepage  problems  would  be  less  than  for  isolated 
farms  under  water  control. 

This  problem  of  water  control  is  one  of  those  that  work  against  small  farmer 
operations  in  the  Everglades.  The  small  farmer  region  that  now  exists  is  in  part 
of  the  limited  custard  apple  muck  area  where  some  farming  can  be  done  without 
the  use  of  pumps.  It  would  seem  that  a  directed  or  controlled  cooperative  farm- 
ing operation  for  small  farmers  might  work  well.  Some  of  the  reasons  for  the 
probable  success  of  such  a  development  are:  (1)  The  economy  of  large-scale  farm 
operations,  (2)  the  advisability  for  farmers  to  live  in  small  villages  or  communi- 
ties so  that  water-treatment  systems  and  power  and  light  can  be  made  available, 
refuse  disposal  provided  for,  and  satisfactory  roads  established. 


Mr.  Tipton.  We  have  certain  questions  we  want  to  ask  you. 
We  should  like  to  have  you  give  us  a  general  description  of  the  Ever- 
glades soils. 


Dr.  Neller.  The  Everglades  consists  of  an  area  of  organic  soils, 
that  is  the  Everglades  proper,  where  the  lands  are  located  that  can 
be  utilized  for  agriculture.  There  are  two  main  classes  of  these  soils, 
the  custard  apple  muck  and  the  sawgrass  peat.  The  intermediate 
phase  is  called  willow  and  elderberry  land. 

Custard  apple  muck  is  a  narrow  zone  lying  adjacent  to  Lake 
Okeechobee  along  the  southern  part  of  the  lake,  and  the  sawgrass  peat 
covers  most  of  the  Everglades  proper,  lying  farther  away  from  the  lake. 
Now,  the  custard  apple  muck  is  deeper  than  sawgrass  peat.  In 
general,  this  organic  soil  layer  gets  thinner  the  greater  the  distance 
from  the  lake.  The  custard  apple  muck  is  more  highly  mineralized. 
It  has  an  ash  content  ranging  from  35  to  65  percent.  The  sawgrass 
peat  ranges  from  about  10  percent  up  to  25  percent  ash.  All  of  this 
area  lying  south  and  southeast  of  the  lake  is  underlaid  with  limestone 
rock  and,  because  of  the  presence  of  the  rock  immediately  beneath 
the  organic  soil  layer,  the  peat  or  muck  soil  is  sweet  in  nature  and 
never  needs  liming. 

Miss  Pascal.  Approximately  how  many  acres  are  there  of  these 
muck  lands? 


Dr.  Neller.  I  can't  give  you  right  now  more  than  approximate 
figures  on  custard  apple  muck.     I  believe  it  is  about  30,000  acres. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  of  the  willow  and  elderberry? 

Dr.  Neller.  These  are  of  about  the  same  extent  while  the  saw- 
grass  peat  covers  hundreds  of  thousands  of  acres,  of  which  it  is  esti- 
mated on  the  basis  of  surveys  about  500,000  acres  would  be  suitable 
agricultural  lands.     There  are  about  100,000  acres  of  this  land  in  use. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Of  that  500,000  acres  that  you  mention  as  being 
suitable,  is  part  of  that  suitable  only  for  pasture  but  not  for  vegetable 

Dr.  Neller.  If  put  under  proper  water  control,  it  would  all  be 
suitable  for  general  farming  such  as  we  have  in  the  Everglades.  How- 
ever, the  custard  apple  zone  will  probably  always  be  a  little  warmer 
than  the  sawgrass  peat  farther  away  from  the  lake.  At  the  present 
time,  the  unused  sawgrass  peat  areas  are  very  cold,  that  is,  tempera- 
tures get  low  in  the  wintertime,  but  we  know  from  experiments  and 
from  temperature  records  that  the  sawgrass  peat  lands  warm  up  so 
tc  speak  after  they  have  been  put  into  cultivation. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  is  the  reason  for  that? 

Dr.  Neller.  That  is  because  the  water  table  is  kept  higher  and  be- 
cause the  loose  mulch-like  covering  which  is  under  the  sawgrass  is 
replaced  with  cultivated  crops  and  in  so  doing  the  loose  top  material 
is  consolidated  by  oxidation  and  compaction  so  that  there  is  a  better 
movement  of  water  from  the  soil  below.  In  cultivated  lands  there  is 
less  rapid  radiation  of  heat  than  in  virgin  lands  and  in  addition  to  that 
there  is  a  greater  retention  of  heat  because  there  is  more  moisture  in 
the  soil  since  water  has  a  high  specific  heat-retention  factor.  In  gen- 
eral, you  know  organic  soils  do  not  have  the  capacity  of  heat  retention 
that  mineral  soils  have  and  that  is  one  of  the  reasons  that  organic 
soil  areas  have  more  frequent  frosts  than  mineral  soil  areas  lying  in 
the  same  latitude. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  tell  us  about  the  mineral  content  of  the  soil? 

Dr.  Neller.  Well,  the  elements  with  which  we  are  especially  con- 
cerned are  plant  food  elements,  of  course,  and  organic  soils  such  as 
those  of  the  Everglades,  especially  the  sawgrass  peat,  are  very  low  in 
most  of  these  mineral  elements.  These  soils  respond  to  application  of 
potash  especially  and  also  phosphate  as  well  as  several  of  the  minor 
elements,  such  as  are  carried  in  copper  sulfate,  manganese  sulfate, 
and  zinc  sulfate.  The  soil  contains  a  large  amount  of  nitrogen  com- 
pounds, however,  and  nitrogen  in  the  form  of  ammonia  and  nitrate  is 
made  available  by  biological  processes  generally  at  a  rate  entirely 
sufficient  for  plant  crop  needs  so  that  we  seldom  need  to  use  nitrogen 
in  fertilizer. 

Miss  Pascal.  Under  what  circumstances  do  yoii  use  nitrogen?  _ 

Dr.  Neller.  Well,  in  seed  beds  where  there  is  intensive  cropping, 
especially  during  the  winter  months  when  the  temperatures  are  low 
and  this  biological  activity  which  releases  the  nitrogen  from  the  soil, 
is  relatively  slow.  Also  during  the  winter  months  where  you  have  a 
crop  growing  that  requires  very  large  amounts  of  nitrogen,  such  as 
celery  for  instance. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that,  as  a  general  rule,  some  nitrogen  is  used  in 
celery  growing? 

Dr.  Neller.  For  celery  growing;  yes. 


Mr.  Tipton.  A  moment  ago  you  mentioned  oxidation  and  compac- 
tion of  the  soil.     Will  you  explain,  please? 

Dr.  Neller.  According  to  the  experimental  results  that  we  are  ob- 
taining here  at  the  Everglades  station,  the  subsidence  is  caused  almost 
entirely  by  the  slow  oxidation  of  the  soil  that  takes  place  when  the 
water  table  is  lowered  by  drainage  so  that  the  soil  becomes  subjected 
to  aeration.  Experiments  show  that  the  rate  of  subsidence  is  entirely 
dependent  upon  the  level  at  which  the  water  table  is  kept  in  the  soil. 
There  is  some  compaction  also,  which  causes  what  is  known  as  sub- 
sidence. The  problem  in  soil  conservation  is  to  keep  the  water  table 
as  high  as  possible  on  the  unused  lands  as  well  as  upon  the  lands  that 
are  being  farmed. 

Miss  Pascal.  Therefore,  in  order  to  keep  subsidence  at  a  minimum, 
one  should  keep  uncultivated  lands  flooded? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  or  almost  flooded. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  lands  not  cultivated  in  the  summer  should  be 
kept  flooded,  if  possible? 

Dr.  Neller.  Well,  yes;  in  the  summertime  many  of  the  cultivated 
fields  are  not  in  use  so  that  the  water  could  be  kept  higher  on  those 
fields  for  at  least  a  short  period  of  time;  but  the  greatest  soil  loss 
occurs  during  the  dry  months  of  the  year  which  corresponds  to  the 
winter  months  of  the  northern  latitudes,  and  that's  a  time  when  crops 
are  growing.  On  lands  with  insufficient  water  control  the  establish- 
ment of  a  more  constant  water  table  level  would  result  in  better  crops 
as  well  as  more  soil  conservation. 

Miss  Pascal.  Would  subsidence  be  minimized  by  plowing  under 
cover  crops  or  bean  vines? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  to  a  certain  extent.  However,  after  cover  crop 
materials  have  been  turned  under  for  a  while  they  leave  a  very  small 
amount  of  residue  as  compared  with  the  loss  of  the  organic  matter  of 
the  soil  itself. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  mean  that  keeping  the  water  table  high  for  as 
much  of  the  year  as  possible  is  more  satisfactory  in  checking  the  rate 
of  subsidence  than  would  be  attempts  to  add  to  the  soil  bj^  plowing 
back  cover  crops? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes.  In  other  words,  you  can't  replace  soil  losses 
very  much  with  cover  crops  when  you  are  considering  organic  soils. 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  the  rate  of  subsidence? 

Dr.  Neller.  Well,  as  I  said,  the  rate  varies  directly  with  the  height 
at  which  the  water  table  is  kept.  According  to  our  subsidence  meas- 
urements, the  rate  of  subsidence  on  farm  lands  appears  to  be  about  an 
inch  a  year  at  the  present  time  but  with  better  water  control,  and 
better  water  control  is  being  introduced  more  and  more,  it  can  be 
expected  that  this  rate  of  subsidence  will  decrease  because  besides 
drainage  better  water  control  means  holding  the  water  table  closer 
to  the  surface  during  the  dry  months  of  the  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  there  different  suitable  water  tables  for  growing 
various  crops? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  within  rather  narrow  limits,  however.  For  in- 
stance, celery  requires  a  higher  water  table  than  beans  or  corn.     The 


generally  accepted  suitable  water  table  for  celery  ranges  from  18  to 
24  inches,  but  for  beans  and  corn  it  could  be  lower,  provided  the  soil 
carried  enough  moisture  in  the  surface  layers  to  permit  the  seed  to 
germinate  and  the  root  system  to  be  established. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  crop  here  in  the  Everglades  will  tolerate  the 
highest  water  table? 

Dr.  Neller.  Probably  grasses.  Also  some  varieties  of  sugarcane 
that  we  have  bred  and  selected  for  that  very  purpose  on  the  station 
farm.  That  brings  up  another  matter  for  consideration  and  that  is 
the  fact  that  certain  crops  like  grasses  and  sugarcane  will  tolerate 
periods  of  high  water  for  a  longer  time  than  quick-growing,  sensitive 
crops  such  as  beans. 

Miss  Pascal.  Then,  certain  crops,  such  as  these  grasses  and  sugar- 
cane, would  be  less  subject  to  damage  by  floods? 

Dr.  Neller.  That's  right,  which  means  periods  of  high  water. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  believe  that,  in  the  long  run,  this  matter  of 
subsidence  is  a  very  serious  problem  for  the  Everglades? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes,  unless  ways  and  means  are  found  to  keep  the 
water  table  higher,  especially  on  the  unused  lands— the  lands  that 
are  not  in  use  at  the  present  time  but  will  be  needed  later.  There  is 
considerable  experimental  investigational  work  being  carried  on  at 
the  present  time  to  remedy  that  situation.  The  Soil  Conservation 
Service  of  the  United  States  Department  of  Agriculture  has  what  is 
called  an  Everglades  project  dealing  with  that  very  matter,  and  they 
are  working  in  cooperation  with  various  other  agencies  such  as  the 
U.  S.  Geological  Survey,  various  municipal  organizations,  and,  of 
course,  the  Florida  Agricultural  Experiment  Station  system.  I 
should  include  in  that  list  other  State  organizations  such  as  the 
department  of  geology.  There  should  be  included  also  the  work  of 
the  United  States  Engineers  because  they  surveyed  and  built  the 
Federal  dike  which  extends  around  the  south  end  of  Lake  Okeechobee 
and  which  is  a  very  important  factor  in  all  of  these  matters  relating 
to  a  better  agriculture  and  in  the  possibility  of  better  use  of  water  for 
the  preservation  of  the  soils  of  the  region. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Has  there  been  a  noticeable  decline  in  the  elevation  of 
any  of  the  Everglades  lands  due  to  subsidence? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  a  very  considerable  decline  but  not  noticeable 
because  it  isn't  visible. 

Miss  Pascal.  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  as  to  how  much  that  de- 
cline has  been? 

Dr.  Neller.  In  giving  any  figures  you  need  to  consider  first  that 
the  soil  of  this  region,  before  any  drainage  was  brought  about,  was  very 
loose  and  fibrous  so  that  after  drainage  was  established  there  was  at 
first  a  rapid  loss  of  soil  level. 

Miss  Pascal.  Was  that  rapid  loss  due  to  compaction  rather  than 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  due  to  both.  A  peat  soil  is  formed  because  of 
the  fact  that  swamp  conditions  existed  which  prevented  very  complete 
oxidation  of  the  organic  material.  As  soon  as  a  soil  of  that  type  is 
drained  the  more  easily  oxidizable  material  oxidizes  first  and  at  a 
more  rapid  rate  than  the  remainder  does  later.  Those  are  the  factors, 
then,  that  cause  the  rate  of  subsidence  to  decrease  after  lands  have 
been  drained  for  a  period  of  time. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Then,  on  that  basis,  can  j^ou  give  us  any  statistics  on 
the  amount  of  decline? 

Dr.  Neller.  Adjacent  to  the  Hillsboro  Canal  and  about  3  miles 
east  of  Belle  Glade  which  is  a  typical  sawgrass  peat  soil,  the  level  has 
subsided  between  4  and  5  feet  below  the  original  level  that  existed 
before  the  canal  was  dug. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  was  the  canal  dug? 

Dr.  Neller.  The  canal  was  dug  about  1912. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  deep  is  the  sawgrass  peat  here  at  the  station? 

Dr.  Neller.  It  is  between  6  and  7  feet  deep. 

Miss  Pascal.  Then,  in  a  period  of  20  years,  40  percent  of  the  land 
has  disappeared? 

Dr.  Neller.  No;  you  can't  say  that  because  these  surface  layers 
that  I  mentioned  were  very  fibrous  and  very  loose  and  oxidized  more 
rapidly  than  the  soil  that  is  left. 

Miss  Pascal.  So  that,  in  the  next  20  years,  you  would  not  expect 
another  40  percent  to  disappear? 

Dr.  Neller.  Oh,  no.  The  rate  is  about  an  inch  a  year,  and  we  have 
reason  to  believe  that  it  will  decrease  especially  if  we  hold  our  water 
table  higher  during  the  dry  months. 

Mr.  Tipton.  This  would  mean,  would  it,  Dr.  Neller,  that  in  order 
to  protect  the  soil,  a  good  deal  of  education  of  farmers  and  a  good  deal 
of  cooperation  from  farmers  with  Government  agencies  interested  in 
these  conservation  programs,  will  be  necessary  to  keep  this  subsidence 
at  a  minimum? 

Dr.  Neller.  Well,  in  reference  to  the  lands  that  are  being  used  for 
farming  at  the  present  time,  the  farmer,  of  course,  is  concerned  in 
profits  from  crop  production  and  with  better  methods  of  crop  produc- 
tion he  will  just  naturally  keep  his  water  table  higher  and  constant 
and  in  so  doing  will  conserve  the  soil  and  that's  the  type  of  progress  or 
development  that  is  taking  place. 


Miss  Pascal.  Because  of  this  problem  of  soil  conservation  and 
because  of  the  relationship  between  drainage  and  soil  subsidence,  does 
it  make  a  difference  as  to  where  new  land  brought  under  cultivation  is 

Dr.  Neller.  The  ideal  method  of  development  or  utilizing  the 
organic  soils  of  the  Everglades  would  be  to  keep  the  farmed  area  in  a 
compact  unit  and  enlarge  it  out  from  that  area  as  increased  acreage  is 
needed.  However,  that  situation  certainly  does  not  exist  and  since 
it  does  not,  it  should  be  approached  as  nearly  as  possible.  .  Farmers 
realize  this  also  because  they  know  that  it  is  easiest  to  keep  the  water 
table  that  they  need  if  a  similar  water  table  exists  in  the  areas  around 
their  farms.  The  use  of  lands  in  the  Everglades  depended  upon  the 
ability  to  get  to  them  by  means  of  roads  and  the  roads  were  possible 
after  the  canals  were  dug.  The  roads  are  built  along  the  banks  of  the 
canals.  So  lands  that  are  in  use  and  that  are  being  put  in  use  are,  for 
the  most  part,  those  that  lie  along  canals. 

Miss  Pascal.  Has  there  ever  been  any  suggestion  made  or  plan 
proposed  for  an  orderly  development  of  the  Everglades? 

Dr.  Neller.  Only  as  to  principles  involved.  The  Soil  Conserva- 
tion Service  is  constructing  field  works  which  will  enclose  fairly  large 


areas,  which  will  give  us  the  answers  to  some  of  these  questions  as  to 
how  long  water  can  be  kept  on  land  after  it  is  placed  there,  especially 
during  the  dry  months  of  the  year  and  investigations  by  the  various 
agencies  that  I  mentioned  are  determining  how  much  water  is  available 
and  what  is  becoming  of  it  at  the  present  time  from  the  standpoint  of 
evaporation,  run-off,  seepage,  as  balanced  against  the  rainfall  and  the 
water  that  is  led  into  the  Everglades  region  from  the  watershed  areas 
that  feed  water  into  the  lake. 


Mr.  Tipton.  I  wonder  if  you  would  describe  for  us  the  process  of 
bringing  new  land  under  water  control  and  also  the  process  of  pre- 
paring that  land  for  cultivation? 

Dr.  Neller.  Assuming  that  you  have  an  outlet  for  the  water  which 
needs  to  be  pumped  off  from  the  land,  such  as  one  of  the  main  canals 
running  through  the  region,  the  placing  of  an  area  of  new  land  under 
water  control  is  a  fairly  simple,  inexpensive  operation  which  consists 
in  digging  canals  and  smaller  ditches  of  suitable  size  through  the 
area,  a  section  of  land  for  instance,  and  establishing  pumps  of  the  right 
capacity  to  pump  this  water  into  the  outlet  canal.  The  digging  of 
these  canals  and  ditches  furnishes  material  for  the  low  levees  that 
surround  the  area  to  keep  surface  water  from  flowing  onto  it.  You 
understand  that  these  Everglades  areas  or  organic  soils  are  almost 
flat  with  a  slope  of  just  a  few  inches  to  the  mile  southeast  from  the 
Lake.  After  the  field  ditches  and  canals  have  been  dug,  the  moling 
operation  facilitates  the  removal  of  water  from,  as  well  as  the  water 
to,  the  fields.  I  should  state,  however  that  the  sawgrass  growth  is 
plowed  under  and  disced  several  times  so  as  to  prepare  the  fields  for 
the  moling  operation.  This  plowing  and  discing  should  be  clone  dur- 
ing the  dry  season  preceding  the  wet,  warm,  summer  season,  during 
which  time  the  sawgrass  growth  material  that  has  been  plowed  under 
as  well  as  the  roots  of  the  sawgrass  and  other  plant  growths  decompose. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  sort  of  plow  is  used? 

Dr.  Neller.  The  plow  that  is  usually  used  is  a  large  moldboard 
plow.  Some  of  the  newer  type  plows  are  very  large-size  disc  plows 
and  seem  to  be  quite  effective.  It  is  essential  that  there  should  be  a 
period  of  decomposition  during  the  summer  before  the  land  is  moled 
and  cropped.  Moling  operation  results  in  the  establishment  of  a 
circular  opening  extending  from  the  drainage  ditch  out  through  the 
field  at  a  depth  of  about  30  to  36  inches  beneath  the  surface  of  the 
soil.  This  mole  drain  is  made  by  a  tractor-drawn  machine  which 
draws  a  six-inch  cylinder  beneath  the  surface  of  the  soil  at  the  depth 
indicated,  without  breaking  up  the  soil  itself.  This  is  because  the 
mole  is  attached  to  a  narrow  blade  of  steel  extending  up  to  the  wheels 
carrying  the  machine. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that,  essentially,  you  have  a  small  tunnel  connecting 
the  ditches. 

Dr.  Neller.  That's  right.  Opening  up  into  the  drainage  ditches. 
This  tunnel  is  formed  by  compression  of  the  peaty  material  and  at 
first  is  generally  6  inches*  in  diameter  which  is  the  size  of  most  moling 
machines.  Measurements  have  shown  that  this  diameter  reduces  to 
about  4  inches  and  this  opening  remains  in  the  soil  for  the  conduction 
of  water  either  to  or  from  the  field  for  several  years,  provided  it 
isn't  broken  down  by  heavy  traffic  across  the  mole  lines. 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  far  apart  in  the  field  will  these  mole  tunnels  be? 

Dr.  Neller.  They  are  generally  from  12  to  15  feet  apart. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  there  any  other  areas  in  the  United  States  where 
this  moling  system  is  used? 

Dr.  Neller.  I  believe  not.  It  was  introduced  here  by  the  Ever- 
glades experiment  station  and  was  modeled  after  a  similar  system 
that  has  been  used  for  years  in  the  fenlands  of  England.  This 
moling  operation  is  suitable  only  for  muck  lands. 


Mr.  Tipton.  After  the  land  is  moled,  is  it  then  ready  for  planting? 

Dr.  Neller.  It  is  for  some  types  of  crops;  that  is,  after  it  has 
been  disced  several  times,  and  especially  if  it  has  gone  through  a 
summer  period  to  allow  the  processes  of  decomposition  to  take 
place;  but  newly  plowed  and  developed  peat  lands  are  not  as  good 
agriculturally  as  they  will  be  2  or  3  years  later. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  months  would  it  be  from  the  time  of  the 
first  plowing  until  the  first  crop  could  be  planted? 

Dr.  Neller.  There  are  some  crops  such  as  para  grass,  which  can 
be  planted  soon  after  plowing  and  discing,  but  for  vegetable  crops 
it  generally  takes  a  full  summer  period  of  5  or  6  months  between  the 
time  of  plowing  and  the  planting  of  the  crop. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  vegetables  can  be  planted  the  next  winter? 

Dr.  Neller.  Well,  on  lands  newly  developed  they  generally  plant 
such  crops  as  potatoes  and  cabbage. 

Miss  Pascal.  There  are  certain  crops  which  can  be  planted  success- 
fully on  this  new  land  and  other  crops  should  not  be  planted  until 
after  2  years? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  better  results  can  be  expected  then. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  this  process  of  bringing  land  under  water  control 
and  breaking  up  the  soil  a  costly  proposition? 

Dr.  Neller.  Fairly  costly.  On  the  average  it  appears  that  the 
cost  of  ditching,  together  with  the  establishment  of  suitable  pumps, 
ranges  from  $20  to  $35  an  acre. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  an  economic  sized  unit  for  bringing  under 
water  control  and  cultivation? 

Dr.  Neller.  Areas  of  80  acres  and  upward. 

Mr.  Tipton.  On  the  basis  of  an  80-acre  plot,  the  cost  for  water 
control,  pumps,  and  so  on  would  run  from  $20  to  $35  an  acre? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  say  that  an  80-acre  plot  is  the  minimum  on  which 
it  would  be  profitable.     What  would  be  the  optimum  or  ideal  size? 

Dr.  Neller.  The  optimum  is  probably  about  a  section  because 
the  drainage  designs  lend  themselves  to  a  section  of  land  and  the 
larger  the  area  the  less  the  owner  has  to  contend  with  adverse  seepage 
conditions  around  his  area. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  bean  acreage  in  the  lake  district  expanding  at 
the  present  time? 

Dr.  Neller.  Up  to  a  year  or  two  ago  it  was  decreasing.  Under 
the  present  situation  it  may  be  expanding  but  on  the  average  the 
development  of  more  diversified  farming  has  resulted  in  considerably 
reduced  bean  acreage,  since  beans  were  about  the  only  crop  they 


used  to  grow  to  any  extent,  while  at  the  present  time  there  are  several 
other  types  of  vegetables  as  well  as  pasture  areas  that  are  being  used. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  are  the  other  more  important  vegetables? 

Dr.  Neller.  Cabbage,  potatoes,  celery,  and  other  leafy  crops, 
tomatoes  also. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  would  you  explain  the  fact  that  beans  declined  in 
acreage  up  to  a  couple  of  years  ago? 

Dr.  Neller.  That's  because  oftentimes  the  production  exceeded 
the  market  demand  and  prices  were  very  unstable. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  bean  acreage  in  the  Glades  was  overexpanded 
in  terms  of  the  market  existing  a  few  years  ago? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Is  a  market  being  developed  for  beans  for  canning 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  there  is  a  modern  canning  plant  that  has  recently 
been  constructed  in  Belle  Glade  which  is  now  ready  for  operation  and 
considerable  acreage  of  beans  has  been  planted  under  contract  agree- 
ments with  the  canning  plant. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  any  beans  been  hauled  out  of  this  region  for 
canning  purposes? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  they  have. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  they  go,  do  you  know? 

Dr.  Neller.  I  believe  they  went  up  into  the  central  part  of  the 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  that  there  is  a  future  in  the  lake  region 
for  the  development  of  a  canning  industry  both  in  beans  and  in  other 

Dr.  Neller.  It  is  quite  apparent  that  there  is  a  future  for  beans. 
As  to  whether  there  is  for  some  of  the  other  vegetables  will  remain  to 
be  seen,  considering  the  varieties  being  grown  at  the  present  time,  but 
it  is  entirely  probable  that  varieties  can  be  grown  that  will  be  suitable 
for  canning  if  those  now  here  are  not. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  the  tomatoes  that  are  grown  down  here  suitable 
for  canning? 

Dr.  Neller.  Not  the  way  they  are  being  grown  now  because  they 
are  picked  too  green. 

Miss  Pascal.  Can  a  suitable  variety  for  canning  be  grown  here? 

Dr.  N  eller.  That  would  have  to  be  determined. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Why  is  it  that  beans  go  through  packing  houses  in  this 
area  but  are  field-packed  in  Pompano? 

Dr.  N  eller.  Beans  used  to  be  largely  field  packed  but,  with  the 
development  of  better  methods  of  farming  and  of  packaging  vege- 
tables, it  has  become  profitable  to  put  the  beans  through  a  packing 
house  for  grading  and  cleaning  to  get  a  more  stabilized  product.  The 
same  improvement  has  taken  place  with  other  vegetables  and  many  of 
them  are  precooled  by  either  the  wet  or  dry  method,  depending  upon 
the  kind  of  vegetable,  after  which  they  are  shipped  in  refrigerated  cars 
or  trucks.  The  appearance  of  the  pack  has  been  improved  a  great  deal 
also,  especially  with  such  vegetables  as  celery.  All  leafy  vegetables 
such  as  lettuce  are  precooled. 

Miss  Pascal.  Can  you  tell  us  what  the  cost  of  grading  is? 


Dr.  N  eller.  I  would  say  it  ranges  from  10  cents  a  package  upward. 

Miss  Pascal.  Does  that  include  the  cost  of  container? 

Dr.  Neller.  No;  it  does  not,  nor  the  commission  for  selling. 


Miss  Pascal.  Is  the  celery  acreage  expanding  in  this  region? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  it  is  expanding  rapidly. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  anticipate  considerable  increase  in  celery 
acreage  in  the  next  few  years? 

Dr.  Neller.  Considering  the  normal  expansion,  I  do  not  anticipate 
as  rapid  an  expansion  as  we  have  had  the  last  few  years. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  how  many  acres  of  celery  is  being  grown  here 

Dr.  Neller.  About  2,000  acres  this  year. 

Miss  Pascal.  Why  don't  you  think  expansion  will  be  as  rapid  in 
.the  next  few  years  as  it  has  been  the  past  few  years? 

Dr.  Neller.  Because  the  supply  of  celery  from  this  State  may 
exceed  the  demand.  So  far  the  acreage  for  the  State  as  a  whole 
has  not  increased  much  but  it  is  shifting  down  this  way. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  how  production  costs  for  this  region 
compare  with  other  regions? 

Dr.  Neller.  Only  in  a  general  way.  I  can  say  that  these  soils  of 
the  Everglades  make  good  use  of  the  fertilizer,  and  because  one  of 
the  important  limiting  factors,  which  is  water,  is  insured  throughout 
the  crop  season  the  yields  are  generally  higher  than  on  many  mineral 
soil  areas.  Nitrogen,  which  is  one  of  the  costlier  factors  in  most 
mixed  fertilizers,  is  not  needed  to  any  extent  here  in  the  Everglades. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  there  much  lettuce  grown  in  the  Everglades? 

Dr.  Neller.  Not  very  much  at  the  present  time,  but  the  acreage 
is  increasing  since  the  introduction  a  few  years  ago  of  types  which 
produce  firmer  heads. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  this  an  iceberg  type  lettuce? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes,  that's  the  iceberg  type. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  those  introductions  are  being  successful? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes,  they  are,  considering  that  lettuce  is  very  sensi- 
tive to  changes  in  weather  conditions. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  is  the  chief  weather  condition  that  affects 

Dr.  Neller.  Too  much  warmth  and  rain. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  anticipate  considerable  expansion  in  lettuce 
acreage  in  the  future? 

Dr.  Neller.  I  anticipate  some  expansion. 

diversification  to  reduce  weather  hazards 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  the  tendency  in  the  Everglades  to  diversify 
serve  to  reduce  the  weather  hazards  of  farming? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes,  it  does;  because  many  of  the  crops  that  are 
being  introduced  or  expanded  are  more  frost  resistant  or  they  are 
crops  that  grow  during  the  summer  months. 

Miss  Pascal.  We  have  been  told  also  that,  if  a  farmer  has  all  of 
his  acreage  planted  to  one  crop  and  he  gets  a  freeze,  he  loses  every- 
thing but,  if  he  has  it  divided  between  several  crops  coining  at  different 

60396— 42— pt.  33 10 


times  of  the  season,  he  may  lose  one  crop  but  he  will  make  a  good 
crop  in  something  else  which  won't  be  adversely  affected  by  that 
particular  weather  condition.     Would  you  say  that  was  accurate? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  that's  true,  except  that  a  series  of  planting  dates 
for  a  given  crop  helps  to  reduce  hazards  to  frosts  and  overproduction. 
With  a  more  diversified  crop  program  the  harvesting  period  is  extended 
over  a  greater  interval  and  there  is  less  liability  of  the  region  produc- 
ing any  one  crop  in  excess  of  the  market  demand. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Of  the  major  crops  grown,  which  would  you  say  are 
the  most  frost  resistant  and  which  are  the  least  frost  resistant? 

Dr.  Neller.  Some  of  the  most  frost  resistant  vegetables  are  celery, 
cabbage,  and  other  leafy  crops.  Beans  are  about  the  most  susceptible 
to  frost,  as  are  potatoes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  low  a  temperature  will  celery  stand? 
Dr.  Neller.  Well,  celery  is  not  affected  by  an  ordinary  frost  and 
will  stand  even  lower  temperatures  for  short  periods  of  time.     By 
that  I  mean  that  the  plant  may  be  affected  but  it  will  grow  out  new 
leaves  and  throw  off  those  that  have  been  frosted. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  would  have  the  tendency  to  delay  the  crop  but 
not  rum  it? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  that  oftentimes  occurs. 

Miss  Pascal.  We  have  been  told  that  a  great  many  more  of  the 
farmers  are  diversifying  in  the  direction  of  cattle  fattening  in  the 
past  year  or  so.  Would  you  say  that  was  a  distinct  tendency  down 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  it  is  with  a  few  of  the  farmers  at  least  on  the 
peat  and  muck  soils  of  the  Everglades. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  types  of  pasture  grasses  are  being  used  for 
fattening  cattle? 

Dr.  Neller.  We  are  finding  and  introducing  several  grasses  which 
are  suitable  and  especially  those  that  are  more  frost  resistant  than 
such  grasses  as  para,  which  is  very  common  in  the  region. 

Miss  Pascal.  Why  is  it  that  cattle  are  just  fattened  down  here? 
I  understand  that  they  are  bred  in  the  Kissimee  River  Valley  and 
brought  down  here  when  the  pastures  up  there  aren't  good  for  winter 

Dr.  Neller.  That's  because  the  winter  pastures  in  the  Everglades 
furnish  more  grazing  than  the  range  lands  farther  up  in  the  State. 

Miss  Pascal.  But  the  cost  of  transporting  the  cattle  down  here 
must  be  pretty  high.  Why  is  it  that  the  breeding  of  the  cattle  isn't 
done  down  here,  too? 

Dr.  Neller.  Well,  the  breeding  of  the  cattle  is  a  little  more  difficult 
task  than  shipping  them  in  and  feeding  them  for  a  short  period  during 
the  cooler  months  of  the  year.  However,  the  experience  that  we  are 
having  here  with  a  herd  of  pure-blood  Devon  cattle  that  we  have  had 
for  11  years  shows  that  cattle  can  be  grown  here  in  the  Everglades 
satisfactorily  and  profitably,  provided  the  requirements  for  the  herd 
are  known  and  met.  Our  experiments  have  shown  that  there  are 
deficiencies  in  the  grass  and  possibly  in  the  other  feeds  that  are  grown 
on  organic  soils  which  need  to  be  corrected  in  order  to  obtain  normal 
growth  of  the  animal. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  these  elements  can  be  added  either  to  the  soil,  so 
that  the  grass  has  them,  or  to  cattle  feeds? 


Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  and  that  is  being  done.  In  addition,  experiments 
have  shown  that  certain  mineral  mixtures  can  be  added  to  the  salt 
that  the  cattle  receive  to  help  correct  these  deficiencies.  However, 
the  problem  has  not  as  yet  been  entirely  solved.  We  have  found 
that  normal  growth  and  reproduction  has  been  obtained  with  our 
herd,  provided  we  fed  a  small  amount  of  cottonseed  meal  to  the  grow- 
ing animals  along  with  the  grass  that  they  receive  in  the  pastures. 
The  mineral  mixture  that  was  previously  mentioned  is  before  the 
cattle  at  all  times  and,  at  present,  this  contains  copper,  iron,  calcium, 
phosphorus,  and  cobalt. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Has  this  tendency  toward  diversification  between 
vegetable  crops  and  diversification  between  vegetables  and  other 
crops,  and,  I  have  in  mind,  cattle,  lemon-grass,  and  so  forth,  made 
farming  in  the  region  a  more  stabilized  type  of  farming  than  it  previ- 
ously was? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes,  it  has,  and  since  it  is  requiring  better  water 
control  all  the  year  round  the  farming  operation  is  becoming  more 
stabilized  and  of  a  more  permanent  character. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  more  farmers  buying  land  now,  than  previously? 

Dr.  Neller.  Apparently  so. 

Miss  Pascal.  In  a  recent  issue  of  the  Belle  Glade  Herald  there  is 
an  article  about  the  increase  in  landownership.  It  says  that  until 
1938  local  farmers  were  not  landowning  conscious  and  that  since 
then  there  has  been  a  very  great  increase  in  the  purchase  of  land. 
Would  you  say  that  this  was  true  as  a  general  statement,  and  what 
reason  would  you  give  for  this  desire  to  own  land  in  the  last  4  years? 

Dr.  Neller.  Well,  the  possibilities  of  the  region  are  becoming 
more  and  more  evident  with  this  program  of  diversification  and  with 
the  development  of  better  farming  methods.  And,  of  course,  prices 
of  agricultural  products  are  better  now  because  of  the  war.  It  is  to 
be  hoped  that  excessive  expansion  will  not  take  place  so  as  to  cause 
a  situation  such  as  existed  hi  some  farming  sections  after  the  last  war. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  consider  this  region  best  adapted  to  small- 
scale  agriculture  or  to  large-scale  operations? 

Dr.  Neller.  It  is  quite  apparent  that  it  is  better  adapted  to  large- 
scale  operations.  That's  because  the  farming  is  done  with  ma- 
chinery, expensive  in  nature,  which  is  used  most  profitably  when  it 
can  be  used  as  much  of  the  time  as  possible,  sometimes  night  and 
day,  and  because  the  operation  needs  to  be  on  a  large  enough  scale 
to  permit  the  most  efficient  kind  of  machinery.  The  field  labor,  of 
which  there  is  a  large  amount  used,  is  on  the  group  system  in  Ever- 
glades farming. 

Mr.  Tipton.  In  view  of  what  you  have  said  about  the  large-scale 
operation,  do  you  see  any  future  in  the  Everglades  for  the  small 

Dr.  Neller.  There  are  certain  areas  in  the  Everglades,  especially 
those  along  the  eastern  side  of  the  lake,  where  small-scale  fanning  is 
quite  successful  now.     Those  are  areas  where  some  special  crops  can 


be  grown  and  where  farm  pumping  is  not  so  necessary  and  where 
some  of  the  drainage  of  the  region  is  taken  care  of  by  the  drainage 

Miss  Pascal.  How  small  a  farm  can  be  successful  in  that  par- 
ticular area? 

Dr.  Neller.  I  believe  that  some  of  those  farms  are  as  small  as  5  or 
10  acres.  However,  it  does  seem  that  small-scale  farming  could  be 
quite  successful  on  a  cooperative  basis.  By  so  doing,  the  cooperative 
could  employ  large-scale  farming  methods  with  machinery,  and  so 
forth,  and  the  farmers  could  live  in  small  villages.  It  seems  to  me 
that  that  is  the  ideal  way  for  farmers  to  live  here  in  the  Everglades. 
It  would  then  be  possible  to  have  such  conveniences  as  water  systems, 
good  roads,  power  and  light  facilities,  sewage  disposal,  and  so  forth. 
As  you  know,  there  are  no  wells  in  the  region.  All  of  the  water  that 
is  usable  is  obtained  either  as  bottled  water  or  rainwater  or  from  water 
plants  in  which  the  water  from  the  canals  or  lake  has  been  treated. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Speaking  of  cooperative  farming  ventures,  are  you 
familiar  with  the  project  that  the  Farm  Security  Administration  is 
developing  on  the  eastern  side  of  the  lake? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  I  am  fairly  well  familiar  with  it,  as  the  Farm 
Security  people  have  consulted  us  on  several  occasions. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  the  sort  of  thing  that  you  had  in  mind  when 
you  recommended  cooperative  development? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  it  is. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  wonder  if  you  could  tell  us  anything  about  the 
tendency  toward  the  integration  of  growing  with  packing  and  selling 

Dr.  Neller.  That's  one  of  the  features  that  favors  large-scale 
farming  because  several  of  the  large  farmers  have  their  own  packing 
plants  and  probably  their  own  marketing  facilities  as  well  as  their 
own  purchasing  departments.  Having  their  own  packing  plants, 
they  do  not  have  to  pay  others  for  the  profits  involved  in  packaging 
and  in  selling.  Oftentimes  they  also  process  crops  for  some  of  the 
smaller  farmers.  Sometimes  the  only  profit  that  results  from  a  crop 
is  that  involved  in  the  cost  of  processing  and  selling. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  the  largest  single  acreage  you  know  of  that  is 
planted  to  one  crop?     I  mean,  in  one  block. 

Dr.  Neller.  I  can  recall  fields  of  potatoes  and  celery  covering  160 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  the  largest  amount  of  any  one  crop,  that  you 
know  of,  that  a  single  grower  ever  produced? 

Dr.  Neller.  Some  of  the  growers  have  had  in  the  neighborhood  of 
500  acres  of  potatoes  or  300  or  400  acres  of  celery,  with  probably  much 
larger  acreages  of  beans  in  some  cases. 


Mr.  Tipton.  With  regard  to  the  seasonality  of  farm-labor  employ- 
ment in  the  Glades,  to  what  extent  do  you  think  the  working  season 
can  be  lengthened  by  means  of  crop  diversification? 

Dr.  Neller.  It  is  being  lengthened  to  a  considerable  extent.  For 
instance,  with  celery,  a  grower  starts  with  the  seed  beds  as  early  as 
July  and  continues  with  his  cropping  until  the  last  harvest  in  late  May. 

Miss  Pascal.  During  what  part  of  that  period  does  the  celery 
grower  require  the  peak  number  of  laborers? 


Dr.  Neller.  During  the  harvesting  period,  which  extends  from 
about  the  middle  of  December  1o  the  first  of  May. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  about  what  proportion  of  the  harvesting  peak 
requirements  are  needed  during  the  planting  and  growing  season? 

Dr.  Neller.  As  far  as  celery  is  concerned,  I  don't  believe  there  is 
any  great  labor  peak.  The  planting  operations  are  extended  through 
the  harvesting  period,  at  least  during  the  first  part  of  the  season. 
There  are,  however,  distinct  labor  peaks  here  in  the  Everglades,  in 
the  fall  and  in  the  spring,  caused  mostly  by  the  bean  and  potato  crops. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Was  there  a  farm  labor  shortage  in  the  lake  region 
this  year? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  there  was  and  there  still  is  to  some  extent, 
apparently.  In  other  words,  I  understand  that  the  sugar  corporation 
couldn't  get  labor  enough  to  properly  strip  their  cane  or  to  weed  the 
fields  after  the  cane  had  been  cut. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  the  vegetable  growers  have  an  adequate  supply 
during  most  of  the  season? 

Dr.  Neller.  No  ;  they  did  not.  However,  in  my  estimation,  the 
labor  situation  didn't  become  as  acute  as  was  anticipated. 

Miss  Pascal.  To  what  extent  do  you  think  that  introduction  of 
new  crops,  such  as  the  crops  being  contemplated  by  the  sugar  cor- 
poration, sweet  potatoes,  peanuts  and  so  on,  will  reduce  the  extreme 
fluctuations  of  labor  requirements  that  have  been  characteristic  in 
this  area  for  a  number  of  years? 


Dr.  Neller.  I  think  that  some  of  those  crops  will  reduce  the  labor 
fluctuations  to  a  very  marked  extent.  In  other  words,  such  crops  as 
peanuts  and  sweet  potatoes  grow  during  the  summer  and  need  to  be 
cared  for  and  harvested  during  the  summer  months.  There  are  some 
other  crops  that  are  summer-loving  crops  also,  such  as  ramie,  which 
has  possibilities  for  fiber  and  may  become  a  crop  of  importance  in  this 
region,  if  and  when  successful  methods  of  harvesting  and  caring  for 
the  crop,  such  as  decortication,  are  worked  out  for  a  climate  such  as 
we  have  here  in  southern  Florida. 

Miss  Pascal.  The  ramie  operation  which  is  being  started  at  the 
present  time,  is,  as  you  said,  only  experimental? 

Dr.  Neller.  Yes;  only  in  an  experimental  stage. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  they  setting  up  a  mill  for  processing  down  here? 

Dr.  Neller.  Not  yet,  as  far  as  I  know.  However,  there  is  experi- 
mental work  going  on  relating  to  the  harvesting  and  decortication 
of  the  crop  in  the  field. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Just  what  is  ramie  .and  what  are  its  uses? 

Dr.  Neller.  Ramie  is  a  plant  which  contains  a  fiber  of  a  character 
that  would  take  the  place  of  linen  very  well  and  possibly  be  better 
than  linen  in  some  cases. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  is  it  grown  at  the  present  time? 

Dr.  Neller.  At  the  present  time  it  is  being  grown  in  China,  some- 
what in  the  Caribbean  countries,  and  also  in  the  Philippines. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  this  the  first  experiment  in  growing  ramie  in  the 
United  States? 

Dr.  Neller.  No;  ramie  has  been  grown  and  experimented  with  in 
southern  Louisiana  and  also  some  of  the  other  portions  of  the  Gulf 


Miss  Pascal.  Has  it  been  successful  there,  do  you  know? 

Dr.  Neller.  No  profitable  methods  of  harvesting  and  decortica- 
tion have  been  worked  out  in  this  country.  That's  because  the 
production  of  ramie  fiber  in  the  Orient  is  based  upon  very  cheap 

Miss  Pascal.  We  are  very  grateful,  Dr.  Neller,  for  your  coopera- 
tion with  our  work,  for  the  information  you  have  given  us  today,  and 
for  that  contained  in  the  statement  you  prepared  for  us. 

MIAMI,  FLA.,  APRIL  21,   1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  the  reporter  your  name,  position,  and 

Mr.  Tennant.  Mark  R.  Tennant,  chairman  of  the  board  of  com- 
missioners, Everglades  Drainage  District  of  Florida,  Miami,  Fla. 

Mr.  Tipton.  To  begin,  would  you  tell  us  briefly  something  of  the 
financial  history  of  the  Everglades  drainage  district? 


Mr.  Tennant.  The  lands  in  the  Everglades  district  were  originally 
patented  to  the  State  of  Florida  by  the  Federal  Government  as  a 
result  of  what  is  known  as  the  Swamp  Act  of  1850,  which  transferred 
to  the  State  all  of  the  overflowed  lands  within  its  boundaries. 

It  was  specified  in  the  Swamp  Act  that  the  money  received  from 
the  sale  of  swamp  lands  should  be  spent  in  the  drainage  of  the  area. 
Shortly  after  the  turn  of  the  century,  plans  were  made  for  the  drainage 
of  the  Everglades  and,  after  a  few  years,  it  became  evident  that 
other  funds  would  be  necessary.  As  a  result,  bonds  were  issued  from 
time  to  time  as  work  proceeded,  and,  in  1925,  all  of  these  bonds 
outstanding  were  gathered  together  and  refunded  into  one  issue 
which  has  been  very  largely  outstanding  ever  since.  At  that  same 
time  the  Florida  legislature  passed  an  act  which  has  been  construed 
by  the  courts  as  part  of  the  contract  supporting  these  bonds.  In 
1931  this  bond  issue  went  into  default,  due  to  the  general  economic 
collapse  of  the  country,  and  remained  in  default  for  a  period  of  10 
years  or  until  they  were  refunded  through  the  Reconstruction  Finance 
Corporation  in  1941. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  was  the  present  board  of  commissioners  of  the 
Everglades  drainage  district  appointed? 

Mr.  Tennant.  As  I  recall,  the  preceding  set-up  was  one  over  which 
the  board  of  internal  improvement  had  control  and  that  control  was 
taken  over  by  a  board  of  local  people.  Originally  the  same  men  who 
were  members  of  the  board  of  internal  improvement  at  Tallahassee 
were  also  ex-ofhcio  members  of  the  board  of  commissioners  of  the 
Everglades  drainage  district.  In  1931  the  legislature  passed  an  act 
which  changed  this  so  that  the  commissioners  were  all  local  men,  liv- 
ing within  the  Everglades  drainage  district. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Were  any  of  the  members  of  the  old  board  of  internal 
improvement  ever  on  the  Everglades  Drainage  District  Board? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Not  since  the  1931  act,  which  required  that  the 
members  of  the  new  board  be  residents  of  a  county  which  had  land 
within  the  district. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Has  the  board  of  internal  improvement  any  interest 
or  any  control  of  any  drainage  activity  in  the  Everglades  at  the  present 

Mr.  Tennant.  Only  indirectly.  By  virtue  of  their  membership  on 
the  board  of  internal  improvement,  they  control  the  land  owned  by 
the  State,  and  the  State  of  Florida  owns  in  fee  something  over  800,000 
acres  which  have  never  been  deeded  out  and  are  within  the  district. 
Also  the  Governor  of  the  State  of  Florida,  who  is  ex-ofhcio  member 
and  chairman  of  the  internal  improvement  board,  appoints  the  mem- 
bers of  the  Everglades  Drainage  District  Board  from  people  within 
the  district. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  the  trustees  of  the  internal  improvement  board 
now  selling  any  land  owned  by  the  State? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Yes;  they  sell  land  from  time  to  time. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  there  much  sale  for  that  type  of  land  to  which  the 
State  still  has  title? 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  would  say  considerable  sale.  I  might  say,  too, 
that  because  of  the  workings  of  what  is  known  as  the  Murphy  Act, 
the  State  has  come  into  title  and  possession  of  a  very  large  area  within 
the  district,  in  addition  to  those  fee  lands  which  I  referred  to  just  a 
moment  ago. 


Mr.  Tipton.  I  want  to  come  back  to  the  Murphy  Act  again  a  little 
later.  Now,  the  Everglades  drainage  district  just  services  the  area 
with  respect  to  major  canals  and  major  water  control.  There  are 
then  subdrainage  districts  which  control  the  water  table  in  the  par- 
ticular areas  within  the  main  district,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Yes;  the  funds  represented  by  this  bond  issue  were 
spent  for  the  main  outlets,  which  are  used  by  these  subdrainage  dis- 
tricts in  their  control  of  the  water  table,  making  it  practical  to  actually 
farm  within  their  areas. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  there  any  connection  between  the  drainage  district 
and  the  various  subdrainage  districts?  That  is  to  say,  does  the  board 
of  commissioners  have  anything  to  say  about  activities  of  the  sub- 
drainage  districts? 

Mr.  Tennant.  None  whatever.  The  Everglades  district  retains 
legal  control  of  ah  of  its  own  works,  which  may  be  used  by  the  sub- 
drainage  districts.     Beyond  that  there  is  no  control. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Decisions  as  to  developments  of  particular  areas  within 
a  subdrainage  district  are  up 

Mr.  Tennant.  Entirely  up  to  the  board  of  commissioners  of  the 
subdrainage  district. 

Miss  Pascal.  In  how  large  an  area  was  farming  possible  without 
further  drainage  after  the  main  canals  were  dug? 

Mr.  Tennant.  A  very  restricted  area.  You  might  say  almost  no 
area  at  all,  because  we  have  found  that  it  is  not  practical  to  farm  here 
in  Florida  without  positive  water  control,  which  means  ability  to  take 
water  off  the  land  and  also  put  water  back  on  the  land.  That  function 
is  carried  out  by  the  subdrainage  district.  However,  before  there 
was  any  effective  drainage  at  all  in  the  Everglades  there  was  an  area 
of  land  known  as  the  custard  apple  muck,  a  low  ridge  around  the  edge 
of  Lake  Okeechobee,  where  considerable  farming  was  done. 



Miss  Pascal.  Was  that  done  before  the  canals  were  put  through? 
Mr.  Tennant.  Yes;  before  they  were  completed.     Of  course,  it 
was  rather  precarious. 

Miss  Pascal.  Because  the  lake  would  overflow  very  readily? 
Mr.  Tennant.  Yes. 


Miss  Pascal.  Of  course,  the  activities  of  the  subdrainage  districts 
vary  a  good  deal,  I  imagine,  but  could  you  tell  me  whether  any  of  them 
provide  complete  water  control?  I  mean,  can  the  subdrainage  district 
actually  give  complete  positive  water  control  for  the  farm  lands  in  the 
district  or  is  it  necessary  for  the  farmer  in  most  of  the  districts  to  put 
through  smaller  ditches  and  maintain  pumps? 

Mr.  Tennant.  It  is  true  that  the  farmers  almost  always  have  some 
further  works  of  their  own  on  their  farms,  such  as  ditches,  a  smaller 
pump,  and  a  series  of  small  openings  known  as  mole  drains,  which  are 
made  by  a  machine  which  draws  a  bullet-shaped  instrument  under- 
ground 3  or  4  feet,  which  resulting  drain  in  turn  empties  into  the 
ditches  and  makes  it  possible  to  drain  every  foot  of  the  land  in  any 
given  field.  That  is  done  by  the  farmer  himself  and  not  by  the  drain- 
age district. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is'  it  possible  to  farm  without  these  individual 
drainage  systems? 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  would  say  not,  for  safe  farming. 


Mr.  Tipton.  We  understand  that  drainage  taxes  are  levied  by  the 
districts  to  finance  the  improvements.  Will  you  give  us  the  data  on 
the  tax  rates  for  the  Everglades  drainage  district? 

Mr.  Tennant.  As  stated  previously  the  general  bond  refunding 
occurred  in  1925  and  the  district  was  completely  zoned  as  to  benefits. 
Six  district  zones  were  created  and  each  zone  was  required  to  pay  a 
certain  annual  tax  per  acre  as  reflected  by  the  following  table: 



Tax  rate 



Tax  rate 

180, 870 
314, 672 
340,  747 
361,  660 
962,  270 




2, 132, 406 
94, 092 
89,  534 


Exempt - 





The  total  assessment,  if  paid,  would  amount,  on  the  basis  of  these 
figures,  to  $2,111,205.00.  In  1937  the  district  was  again  zoned  m  an 
attempt  to  make  the  tax  structure  more  realistic,  as  it  was  generally 
recognized  that  the  zoning  of  1925  was  entirely  impossible  from  a  prac- 
tical point. 

Mr.  Tipton.  It  was  under  the  1925  zoning  that  the  bonds  were  de- 
faulted, is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Yes.  Their  1937  rezoning  was  attacked  by  the 
bondholders  and  declared  unconstitutional  by  the  courts  because  it 
impaired  the  security  behind  the  bonds,  as  in  a  great  many  instances 
tbe  taxes  were  lowered.     Again,  in  1941,  when  the  general  refunding 



hi  !!*r 

.     53 

I  ?S° 

iS  "Si 

O)  CJl 




act  was  passed,  the  district  was  entirely  rezoned  according  to  tbe 



Tax  rate 



Tax  rate 


91, 981 
82,  763 
72,  773 
125, 483 
231,  251 



928,  677 
1,  769,  735 

383.  897 
94.  303 
89,  534 









Mr.  Tipton.  The  whole  situation,  then,  has  very  recently  settled 
down  and  a  good  deal  of  the  confusion  with  regard  to  the  old  bonds 
has  been  eliminated? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Yes.  The  Federal  court  about  2  weeks  ago  issued 
the  interlocutory  decree,  which  really  means  that  we  are  now  refunded. 
The  R.  F.  C.  had  already  purchased  about  90  percent  of  the  bonds  and 
the  district  had  gone  into  municipal  bankruptcy  in  order  to  force  in 
the  rest  of  the  bonds. 


Mr.  Tipton.  We  have  been  told  that  the  confusion  with  regard  to 
the  bonds,  the  high  tax  rate,  and  the  confusion  with  respect  to  land 
titles,  has  had  a  deterrent  effect,  in  the  past,  on  the  development  of 
the  Everglades. 

Mr.  Tennant.  Very  decidedly,  because  almost  all  of  the  land  in  the 
district  was  in  default  on  its  taxes,  because  the  rates  were  inequitable 
and,  in  so  many  cases,  impossible  to  pay,  considering  the  quality  and 
value  of  the  land.  With  the  rezoning  and  refunding  of  the  bonds,  this 
uncertainty  has  all  been  wiped  out  and  very  large  areas  of  the  district 
have  had  then  taxes  compromised  under  the  plan  and  are  now  paying 
current  taxes. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  is  the  nature  of  that  compromise? 

Mr.  Tennant.  As  I  said  a  moment  ago,  the  entire  district  was  re- 
zoned  to  reflect  actual  benefits  and  ability  of  various  lands  to  pay. 
Under  that  rezoning  any  owner  could  settle  back  taxes  on  the  basis  of 
2  years'  taxes  under  the  new  zoning,  regardless  of  how  many  years 
back  the  default  ran.  In  case  the  default  was  not  beyond  the  year 
1940,  the  owner  could  settle  on  the  basis  of  one  year's  taxes  under 
the  new  zoning. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  rapidly  have  settlements  been  made  under  this 
compromise  plan? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Settlements  have  been  very  substantial.  The 
total  amount  received  to  date  as  compromised  payments  is  $466,781.81 
while  the  total  amount  received  on  the  1941  current  taxes  is  $397,- 

Mr.  Tipton.  Jlave  you  noticed  yet  any  substantial  increase  in  the 
rate  of  development  of  the  Everglades? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Yes;  there  has  been  a  decided  increase  in  develop- 
ment, due  undoubtedly  to  a  considerable  extent  to  the  settlement 
secured  and  also  to  some  extent  to  war  conditions  and  an  abnormal 
demand  for  some  of  the  products. 

1  See  map  opposite. 



Miss  Pascal.  Can  you  give  us  an  estimate  of  the  number  of  acres 
under  cultivation  in  the  Everglades  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Tennant.  At  the  time  we  prepared  figures  for  the  Reconstruc- 
tion Finance  Corporation  it  was  estimated  that  there  were  215,000 
acres  under  a  state  of  intensive  cultivation.  There  was  an  additional 
40,000  acres  which  were  in  seeded  grasses  and  300,000  acres  in  use  for 
grazing  purposes,  but  not  under  intensive  cultivation.  This  would 
make  a  total  of  555,000  acres  being  utilized  at  that  time.1 

Mr.  Tipton.  Has  the  settlement  resulted  so  far,  or  do  you  expect  it 
to  result  in  the  future,  in  an  increased  amount  of  pasturage  in  the 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  will  answer  this  way:  All  of  the  wild  pasture  lands 
were  being  utilized,  even  previous  to  the  settlement,  whether  by  cattle 
owners  who  were  using  it  as  open  range  and  had  no  claim  to  title,  or 
by  owners  whose  taxes  were  badly  in  arrears.  I  would  say  that  the 
improvement  of  these  pastures  in  tame  grasses  has  been  greatly 
increased  since  the  settlement  was  secured,  as  this  naturally  incurs 
considerable  outlay  which  would  not  be  warranted  on  lands  on  which 
title  was  doubtful.  Also  I  would  say  that  probably  nearer  500,000 
acres  are  being  used  as  unimproved  grazing  lands. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  consider  to  be  the  potential  vegetable 
and  pasturage  acreage  in  the  Everglades? 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  would  say,  broadly  speaking,  that  zone  1  under 
the  1941  act  is  now  either  under  cultivation  or  capable  of  being  put 
under  immediate  cultivation.  Zone  2  could  readily  be  put  into  inten- 
sive cultivation  by  the  establishment  of  local  water  control.  It  would 
cost  more  to  put  zone  3  under  intensive  cultivation,  but,  in  my  judg- 
ment, it  could  be  done  profitably.  I  consider  zones  4  and  5  in  the 
"twilight"  zone,  although  there  is  at  the  present  time  considerable 
cultivation  in  zone  4,  especially  along  the  east  coast.  Zone  6  is  defi- 
nitely impracticable  at  the  present  time,  and  many  well  qualified 
authorities  doubt  seriously  whether  the  main  acreage  in  this  zone  as 
represented  by  the  vast  area  of  the  central  Glades  can  be  put  under 
profitable  cultivation.  A  great  deal  of  this  area  in  zone  7  is  now  being 
used  for  grazing  except  in  the  lower  and  lower  central  Glades.  There 
is  some  grazing  in  zone  8. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  it  is  questionable  as  to  whether  or  not  it  will 
ever  be  profitable  to  attempt  to  cultivate  the  one  hundred  twenty- 
five  thousand-odd  acres  in  zone  4  and  the  two  hundred  thirty-one 
thousand-odd  acres  in  zone  5? 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  would  not  say  "ever"  but  at  present  they  are 
questionable,  except  for  certain  areas  along  the  east  coast  where  the 
lands  were  placed  in  those  lower  tax  rate  zones,  not  because  they  were 
relatively  unusable,  but  because  of  the  greater  fertilizer  cost  necessary 
where  the  lands  are  even  now  actually  under  cultivation. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  those  lands  you  are  speaking  of  now  considered 
a  part  of  the  Everglades? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Yes;  they  are  within  the  Everglades  drainage  dis- 

'  It  should  be  understood  that  these  figures  refer  to  laud  iu  the  Everglades  drainage  district — not  to  the 
Everglades  proper.    [Ed.] 


Miss  Pascal.  These  soils  that  have  been  classified  in  zones  4  and 
5  on  the  east  coast,  where  there  are  high  fertilizer  costs,  are  not  the 
peat  soil  of  which  most  of  the  Glades  are  made  up? 

Mr.  Tennant.  Generally  speaking,  no.  They  are  mostly  sandy 


Mr.  Tipton.  What  in  your  opinion,  Mr.  Tennant,  are  the  prospects 
for  the  small  farmer  as  the  Everglades  develops? 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  would  say  very  good.  I  think  the  small  farmer 
would  want  to  diversify  his  operations  and  not  depend  entirely  on 
commercial  trucking  crops  to  be  successful. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  the  small  farmer  in  a  position  to  provide  himself 
with  the  necessary  drainage  facilities  and  the  type  of  machinery  that 
is  needed  in  the  Glades  for  profitable  operation? 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  think  so,  if  he  lies  within  one  of  the  subdrainage 
districts,  which  I  assume  he  would.  He  might  want  a  small  pump  of 
his  own  because  of  the  fact  that  various  crops  require  different  water 
tables,  and  he  would  want  a  water  table  that  would  answer  his  purpose. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  would  you  say  would  be  the  smallest  acreage, 
given  diversified  farming,  the  smallest  acreage  that  would  support  a 
farm  family  in  the  Glades? 

Mr.  Tennant.  We  can  point  to  successes  on  10  acres  but,  per- 
sonally, I  believe  a  farmer  would  be  much  better  off  with  40  acres. 


Mr.  Tipton.  I  think  the  only  other  question  we  have  here  now  is  in 
connection  with  the  Murphy  Act.  Can  you  explain  to  us  the  nature 
and  the  purpose  of  the  Murphy  Act  and  when  the  Murphy  Act  was 

Mr.  Tennant.  Dating  back  to  the  collapse  of  the  Florida  boom  in 
1926  and  especially  since  1930  when  the  general  depression  occurred, 
lands  all  over  the  State  of  Florida  increasingly  defaulted  on  their  tax 
payments.  By  1935  and  1936,  when  the  country  generally  was 
emerging  from  the  worst  of  the  depression,  the  total  amount  of  the 
default  of  State  and  county  taxes  in  the  State  of  Florida,  to  say 
nothing  of  the  drainage  taxes  within  various  districts,  was  almost 
unbelievable.  They  amounted  in  many  cases  to  several  times  what 
the  land  was  worth.  This  was  generally  recognized  and,  in  the  1937 
legislature,  a  bill  was  introduced  by  Senator  Murphy  with  the  view  to 
making  it  practical  to  wipe  out  the  vast  top-heavy  debt  burden  and 
get  the  lands  back  on  the  current  tax  roll.  Briefly,  it  operated  as 
follows:  Either  the  owner  or  a  stranger  to  the  title  could  go  to  the  clerk 
of  the  circuit  court  of  the  county  in  which  a  particular  body  of  land 
lay  and,  by  depositing  the  cost  of  the  advertising,  have  the  land  adver- 
tised in  a  local  paper  for  several  consecutive  weeks,  the  ad  stating  that 
on  the  first  rule  day  following  the  last  insertion  of  the  advertisement 
the  land  would  be  sold  at  the  courthouse  door  to  the  best  and  highest 
bidder.  This  invariably  resulted  in  the  advertiser  himself  bidding  in 
the  land  for  actual  cost  of  advertising  and  fees  of  the  various  county 
officers.  The  cost  was  gaged  bv  the  number  of  certificates  involved. 
For  instance,  an  entire  section  of  640  acres  could  be,  and  usuallv  was, 


bought  as  cheaply  as  a  5-acre  tract,  if  each  was  covered  by  just  one 
certificate.  Of  course,  many  inequities  resulted  but  it  did  clear  the 
tax  books  of  the  mountain  of  accumulated  taxes  and  get  the  lands  back 
in  a  current  position  on  the  tax  roll. 

One  provision  of  the  bill  was  that  the  privilege  of  advertising  and 
bidding  lands  extended  only  for  2  years  from  the  date  on  which  the 
Murphy  bill  became  a  law,  namely,  June  9,  1937.  Two  years  after 
that  date,  any  lands  which  had  not  been  advertised  and  bought  under 
the  bill  reverted  automatically  to  the  State  of  Florida  and  the  State's 
title  in  these  lands  has  been  held  good.  However,  I  believe  that  it 
has  also  been  held  that  vesting  the  title  in  the  State  did  not  wipe  out 
benefit  liens,  owned  by  any  drainage  district,  which  might  cover  such 

Mr.  Tipton.  May  I  interrupt  right  there,  Mr.  Tennant?  Does  that 
mean  that  the  fact  that  the  State  has  taken  title  under  the  terms  of 
the  Murphy  Act  does  not  mean  that  any  drainage  bond  liens  against 
the  property  have  been  wiped  out? 

Mr.  Tennant.  That's  my  understanding. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  that  mean  then  that  the  State,  as  owner,  is  in 
debt  to  the  bondholders  of  the  drainage  district? 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  would  put  it  this  way,  that  the  lands  are  still  sub- 
ject to  the  taxes  against  them  though  the  State  owns  the  title.  In 
practice,  that  has  worked  out  in  this  way:  The  State  has  not  under- 
taken to  pay  these  back  taxes  but  has  waited  until  the  land  has  been 
sold,  at  which  time  taxes  could  be  compromised  under  the  1941  Ever- 
glades Act  by  the  new  owner. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  make  an  estimate  of  the  amount  of  land  that 
reverted  to  the  State  under  the  Murphy  Act? 

Mr.  Tennant.  I  have  repeatedly  tried  to  get  at  the  amount  of  this 
acreage,  but  there  do  not  seem  to  be  any  figures  in  existence.  The 
State  has  no  idea  how  much  it  has,  so  far  as  I  know,  and  the  various 
clerks  of  the  court  in  the  counties  say  that  they  are  unable  to  give  us 
any  figures.  It  is  a  very  considerable  acreage  and  presumably  the 
poorest  land,  since  no  individual  was  interested  in  advertising  it. 

Miss  Pascal.  Under  the  drainage  district  reorganization  plan,  the 
district  itself  will  come  into  title  on  any  land  that  is  not  settled  up 
under  the  compromise  plan.     Is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Tennant.  The  1941  act  provides  that,  at  the  expiration  of  2 
years  from  the  date  the  compromise  came  into  effect,  the  Everglades 
tax  certificates  outstanding  on  the  land  can  be  purchased  by  an  indi- 
vidual and  foreclosed.  In  fact,  they  can  be  purchased  now  but  can- 
not be  foreclosed  until  the  period  stated.  We  anticipate  that  there 
will  be  a  very  large  acreage  the  certificates  on  which  will  not  be  pur- 
chased by  individuals  and  it  is  my  understanding  that,  under  our 
agreement  with  the  R.  F.  C,  we,  as  a  district,  will  be  required  to 
foreclose  promptly  on  such  lands. 

Mr.  Tipton.  In  that  connection,  how  about  the  State  .nds,  both 
the  800,000  acres  which  were  never  deeded  out  and  that  acioage  which 
has  reverted  to  the  State  under  the  terms  of  the  Murphy  Actf  but  which 
is  still  subject  to  the  drainage  district  compromise? 

Mr.  Tennant.  As  regards  the  eight-hundred-thousand-odd  acres 
of  the  State  known  as  fee  lands,  the  back  taxes  on  these  lands  were 
wiped  out  under  an  agreement  between  the  district  and  the  board  of 
commissioners  of  the  internal  improvement  Tund,  the  district  canceling 


the  State's  taxes  in  consideration  of  the  cancelation  of  certain  obliga- 
tions owed  by  the  district  to  the  I.  I.  Board  and,  I  might  state,  that 
the  State  of  Florida  has  recently  paid  its  1941  Everglades  taxes  on 
the  original  eight-hundred-thousand-odd  acres.  Regarding  the  large 
acreage  which  reverted  to  the  State  under  the  Murphy  bill,  and  which 
still  has  accumulated  Everglades  taxes  on  it,  I  do  not  believe  that 
any  policy  has  been  worked  out  and  I  have  not  heard  anyone  state 
what  the  legal  status  of  these  lands  will  probably  be.  I  doubt  that 
the  district  would  undertake  to  foreclose  against  the  State,  as  a  prac- 
tical matter,  so  I  would  say  that  such  lands  will  possibly  remain 
status  quo,  unless  foreclosure  is  required  by  the  R.  F.  C. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Mr.  Tennant,  we  certainly  appreciate  very  much  the 
information  you  have  given  us.  We  will  transmit  it  to  the  committee 
for  their  use  in  preparing  their  report  and  recommendations. 


26,  1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  please  give  your  name,  address,  occupation, 
and  any  official  positions  you  hold? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  James  E.  Beardsley,  Clewiston,  Fla. ;  farmer  and 
real  estate  broker;  resident  in  the  Everglades  for  28  years,  commis- 
sioner of  the  Everglades  drainage  district,  supervisor  of  Sugarland 
and  Clewiston  drainage  districts,  coreceiver  of  the  Disston  Island 
drainage  district,  chairman  of  the  sugar  subcommittee,  Florida  State 
Defense  Council,  farmer  member  of  the  State  land  use  planning  com- 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  are  you  from  originally,  Mr.  Beardsley? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Chicago,  111.  I  was  born  In  Ohio  but  I  came  from 
Chicago  down  to  the  Glades. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  said  that  among  other  things  you  are  a  farmer. 
How  many  acres  do  you  operate  and  what  crops  do  you  grow? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Four  hundred  and  thirty-three  acres,  of  which 
two  hundred  are  in  sugarcane,  the  balance  in  vegetables  and  fruits. 
Most  of  the  vegetable  land  is  rented  out  on  shares. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  the  sharing  arrangement? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  One-seventh  is  the  share. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  mentioned  fruit? 

fruit  raising 

Mr.  Beardsley.  We  have  10  acres  of  citrus,  2  acres  of  bearing 
avocados,  5  acres  additional  avocados  not  yet  bearing. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  this  fruit  acreage  here  near  the  lake? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Clewiston.  It's  at  my  farm,  which  is  7  miles 
east  of  Clewiston. 

Mr.  Triton.  This  lake  region  is  not  primarily  a  fruit  region,  is  it? 

Mr.  BlviRDSLEY.    No. 

Mr.  Ti.-ton.  Do  avocados  and  citrus  do  well  here? 
Mr.  Beardsley.  Exceptionally  well. 
Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  muckland  you  have  your  fruit  on? 
Mr.  Beardsley.  The  muck  depth  on  the  farm  will  run  10  to  12 


Mr.  Tipton.  And  you  find  that  good  for  fruit? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  The  interior  quality  of  the  fruit  is  excellent. 
The  juice  content,  I  think,  is  unsurpassed  for  fruit.  Ours  is  not  a 
marketable  grade  of  fruit  because  we  do  not  spray  it.  We  just  sell 
it  locally. 

Air.  Tipton.  How  about  the  avocados? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  They  are  doing  splendidly.  Of  course,  it  is  soil 
with  a  high  humus  content  that  is  recognized  as  an  ideal  avocado 
soil.     The  limitation  is  the  frost  hazard. 

Miss  Pascal.  Why  isn't  the  citrus  industry  developed  down  here 
in  the  lake  region? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Primarily  drainage  or  lack  of  it.  That  same 
thing  has  been  the  trouble  with  avocado  development  and  then  there 
is  the  further  factor  that  we  still  haven't  quite  grown  out  of  the 
earlier  stages  of  the  Everglades  development  when  it  was  a  get-rich- 
quick  proposition,  and  to  a  large  extent  it  still  is  today,  and  when 
it  takes  5  years  to  bring  a  citrus  grove  into  bearing  the  farmers  are 
not  going  to  plant  citrus,  especially  when  they  consider  the  average 
prices  at  which  citrus  is  sold.  Notwithstanding,  we  feel  down  here 
about  citrus,  those  of  us  who  take  a  long-range  view,  as  Dr.  Neller 
at  the  agricultural  experiment  station  said  at  one  time,  when  citrus 
is  selling  at  $1  a  box,  and  it  costs  a  man  $1.25  on  the  ridge  to  produce 
it,  the  man  in  the  Glades  can  produce  it  for  75  cents,  then  he  can  stay 
in  the  citrus  business  when  the  man  of  the  ridge  has  gone  broke. 
The  primary  requirement  in  other  citrus  sections  of  Florida  is  nitrogen 
and  that  is  what  we  have  lots  of. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Would  you  say  that  what  you  have  said  about  citrus 
applies  also  to  avocados? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  You  mean  with  respect  to  lack  of  drainage? 

Mr.  Tipton.  The  whole  picture,  lack  of  drainage,  the  fact  that  it 
is  a  crop  that  takes  some  time  before  the  trees  start  paying  returns, 
and  also  this  last  matter  that  you  mentioned,  costs  of  production. 

Mr.  Beardsley.  That's  right.  Dade  County,  which  is  a  principal 
avocado  section,  that  is  south  of  Miami,  produces  practically  all  of 
its  crop  on  a  hard  rock  land.  It  costs  them  $150  an  acre  to  blast 
those  holes  and  put  in  avocados.     We  do  it  for  $25. 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  ago  did  you  come  to  this  country? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Twenty-eight  years  ago. 

Mr.  Tipton.  We  would  like  to  have  you,  in  your  own  way,  describe 
for  us  the  conditions  existing  here  when  you  came,  and  how  the 
country  developed  during  the  subsequent  28  years. 

Mr.  Beardsley.  That  might  run  into  a  book.  Land-development 
companies  sold  thousands  of  tracts  of  10  acres  and  upward  in  the 
Everglades  in  1910  and  1912  on  the  promise  that  the  land  so  sold  would 
eventually  be  adequately  drained.  Most  of  those  lands  were  sold  to 
well-to-do  farmers  in  the  Middle  West.  Some  of  them  came  to  the 
Everglades  in  the  expectation  of  beginning  immediate^operations  on 
their  tracts  and,  when  they  found  them  inaccessibly  and  without 
drainage  facilities,  they  located  on  the  shore  of  the  ltfke  at  various 
points  where  fish  camps  of  commercial  fishermen  ha*.!,  already  been 
established.     Fishing  was  the  earliest  enterprise  of  any  nature  carried 


on  in  the  Everglades  region.  The  first  drainage  works  begun  were  the 
construction  of  the  still  existing  main  drainage  canals  of  the  Everglades 
district.  The  canals,  as  they  neared  completion,  successively  fur- 
nished means  of  ingress  and  egress  to  the  nucleus  of  the  development 
around  the  lake  shore.  Our  land  was  not  bought  through  the  principal 
development  company  which  sold  most  of  the  Everglades  tracts,  but 
was  purchased  from  an  agent  in  Miami  and  happened  to  be  lake-front 
land,  although  at  that  time  no  one  realized  that  there  was  any  dis- 
tinction between  peat  land  and  custard  apple  soil.  Supplies  were 
obtained  for  the  first  several  years  after  my  arrival  on  the  lake  shore 
in  1914  by  boat  from  Deerfield  on  the  Hillsboro  Canal  or  from  Fort 
Lauderdale.  Boats  carried  mail  from  Fort  Lauderdale  to  the  two 
post  offices  then  established  at  Okeelanta  and  at  Ritta,  twice  a  week. 
Produce  made  the  same  trip  down  the  canal  from  farmers  who  owned 
docks  to  the  railroad  at  Fort  Lauderdale,  frequently  a  24-hoiir  journey. 
It  was  a  common  occurrence  for  farmers  to  harvest  produce,  put  it  on 
their  dock,  expecting  arrival  of  a  regular  boat,  which  might  have  had 
motor  trouble  or  run  aground. in  the  canal,  so  that  the  vegetables 
might  have  been  harvested  three  or  four  days  before  they  were  actually 
on  the  boat  and  on  the  way  to  the  railroad.  Facilities  for  packing 
were  nonexistent,  each  farmer  putting  up  his  own  individual  pack  on 
his  own  place  and  generally  with  the  labor  from  his  own  family  or  such 
white  help  as  might  be  obtained  from  fishermen  or  neighbors.  There 
was  no  colored  labor  available  in  the  trucking  sections  of  the  Glades 
around  the  lake  until  after  the  war. 


Miss  Pascal.  Could  you  tell  us  something  about  the  crops  that 
were  grown? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Irish  potatoes,  green  corn,  Bermuda  onions,  string 
beans,  lima  beans,  peppers,  eggplant,  and  tomatoes  were  the  crops 
grown,  all  of  them  in  very  limited  acreage  and  beans  were  not  then, 
as  they  are  now,  the  principal  crop,  since  the  methods  of  transporta- 
tion were  not  conducive  for  delivery  of  a  satisfactory  package. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  was  the  ultimate  destination  of  most  of  this 
produce?     You  said  it  went  to  the  railroad  at  Fort  Lauderdale. 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Most  sales  of  Everglades  produce  were  made 
through  one  broker  on  the  dock  at  Fort  Lauderdale  who  sold  to  the 
buyers  for  commission  houses,  principally  for  shipment  to  New  York. 
Bermuda  onions  were  the  principal  crop  on  the  Beardsley  farms  be- 
cause at  that  time  we  had  not  yet  introduced  into  the  Everglades  the 
number  and  variety  of  grasses  which  have  since  become  so  prevalent 
and  which  have  made  cultivation  of  onions  too  expensive. 

Miss  Pascal.  Could  you  get  the  high  winter  prices  for  onions  you 
could  get  for  the  other  crops? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Prices  in  the  main  through  the  early  years  were 
higher  than  those  received  today.  Red  Bliss  potatoes  were  selling  in 
the  spring  of  1917  for  $3.50  a  bushel,  Bermuda  onions  for  $3,  cabbage 
for  $4  a  hundred. 

Miss  Pasca  .  Those  prices  vou  are  quoting  were  on  the  dock  at 
Fort  LauderdL ie? 

Mr.  Beards    :y.  Yes. 


Mr.  Tipton.  About  how  many  farmers  and  about  how  big  an 
acreage  was  being  farmed  from  1914  to  the  wartime  period? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  There  were  probably  not  to  exceed  100  farmers 
around  the  south  shore  of  the  lake  until  1918.  Of  these,  some  were 
converted  fishermen,  some  were  "escapees"  from  legal  or  domestic 
difficulties  in  other  States,  and  a  small  portion  were  landowners. 

Mr.  Tipton.  About  what  size  farms  did  they  operate? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Perhaps  our  own  operation  is  a  fair  indication. 
In  1916  we  farmed  16  acres,  in  1917,  30  acres,  which  at  that  time  was 
considered  quite  a  sizable  operation.  In  the  spring  of  1917  we  had 
12  acres  in  cabbage,  all  of  which  was  harvested  by  white  labor,  pack- 
aged on  the  farm,  and  shipped  by  boat  to  Fort  Lauderdale.  We  paid 
6°hands  $1.75  per  day  and  lunch.  The  price  received  for  cabbage  and 
the  reports  of  the  money  which  we  and  a  few  others  had  made  from 
cabbage  in  the  spring  of  1917  created  a  tremendous  interest  in  farming 
possibilities  in  the  lake  territory  so  that  1918  found  a  boom  under 
way  in  Moore  Haven  and  the  adjacent  territory.  Perhaps  2,000 
acres  was  planted  in  the  Moore  Haven  section  in  cabbage  in  1918, 
probably  less  than  200  of  it  was  ever  harvested.  Notwithstanding 
this  loss  to  the  newcomers,  most  of  them  were  intrigued  by  the  quality 
of  the  soils  and  other  conditions  conducive  to  successful  farming,  so 
they  remained  in  the  section  and  gradually  spread  their  operations  to 
other  points  around  the  lake  shore.  The  Atlantic  Coast  Line  Railroad 
was  extended  into  Moore  Haven  in  1918,  to  Clewiston  in  1922. 
Clewiston  then  became  the  railhead  for  shipments  originating  all 
around  the  south  shore.  There  had  been  rail  facilities  available  at 
Tantie,  later  Okeechobee  City,  at  the  north  end  of  the  lake,  but  these 
were  used  principally  by  fish  boats,  not  by  farmers.  The  Florida 
East  Coast  Railway  extended  its  line  from  Okeechobee  to  Belle  Glade 
in  1926  and  subsequently  that  line  and  the  Atlantic  Coast  Line  joined 
at  the  present  village  of  Lake  Harbor  to  give  rail  facilities  to  all  of  the 
points  on  the  south  shore.  After  the  war  numbers  of  farmers  from 
the  nearby  Southern  States— about  half  our  population  down  here 
comes  from  Georgia 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  a  good  deal  more  of  it  from  other  Southern  States 
and  from  Northern  States  as  well? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  A  native  Floridian  is  still  largely  a  curiosity  down 
here.  These  farmers  flocked  into  the  lake  area  after  the  war,  seeking 
cheap,  highly  productive  land,  and  began  the  foundation  of  the  present 
commercial  vegetable  industry.  They  continued  to  hang  on,  not- 
withstanding the  tremendous  losses  generally  suffered  by  the  flood  of 
'22  and  subsequent  bank  failure  at  Moore  Haven,  the  flood  of  '24 
when  the  territory  generally  had  19  inches  of  rain  in  3  days  in  October, 
the  aftermath  of  the  Florida  boom— that  is  the  collapse  of  land  values 
— the  hurricane  of  1928  which  was  generally  disastrous  to  plantings 
and  improvements  throughout  the  lake  section. 

Mr.  Tipton.  In  the  very  early  days  did  they  use  much  fertilizer 
around  the  lake? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  None  at  all.  All  the  use  of  fertilizer  began  m  the 
early  thirities.  The  use  of  corrective  supplements  such  as  manganese, 
copper,  and  so  on  was  developed  by  the  local  experiment  station. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  from  the  use  of  supplements  they  got  into  the  use 
of  commercial  fertilizers? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Yes. 



Miss  Pascal.  When  did  the  bean  industry  start  down  here? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  The  rehabilitation  of  the  area  and  a  renaissance  of 
vegetable  production  came  following  the  1928  storm.  It  has  always 
been  my  theory  that  only  those  with  sufficient  courage  to  have  held 
on  through  the  previous  10  years  were  still  interested  in  the  section 
and  that  these  are  the  persons  responsible  for  the  recovery  following 
the  disastrous  setbacks  which  have  been  outlined.  Most  of  the  work 
was  done  without  benefit  of  outside  financing  and,  since  there  have 
been  no  real  catastrophes  in  the  ensuing  period,  the  elements  of  soil 
and  climatic  conditions,  the  increase  of  knowledge  of  water  control 
requirements,  the  added  experience  of  individual  farmers,  and  the 
advent  of  the  United  States  Sugar  Corporation  have  all  contributed 
to  the  tremendous  growth  experienced  in  the  Glades  in  the  last  13  years. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  tell  us  something  about  the  history  of  the 
development  of  water  control? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  The  Everglades  drainage  district  canals  proved 
entirely  inadequate  as  a  means  of  drainage,  as  evidenced  by  the  con- 
ditions previously  described,  so  that  there  came  a  growing  feeling  that 
drainage  must  be  handled  in  small  units  by  pumping  operations, 
rather  than  by  run-off  and,  from  1925  through  1930,  a  number  of 
so-called  subdrainage  districts  were  organized  around  the  perimeter 
of  the  lake,  various  areas  being  consolidated  into  units,  issuing  bonds 
for  the  construction  of  canals  and  ditches  and  pump  plants,  most  of 
which  were  located  on  the  lake  shore,  with  the  idea  that  these  plants 
would  remove  excess  water  by  pumping  it  into  the  lake  and  that  this 
operation  could  be  reversed  during  dry  periods  if  necessary. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  know  of  any  farmers  who,  before  the  forma- 
tion of  these  drainage  districts,  used  this  positive  type  of  water  control 
with  pumps  rather  than  just  relying  on  ditches  and  run-offs? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Several  efforts  were  made  by  individual  farmers 
to  handle  drainage  through  their  own  pumping  operations  on  lands 
immediately  adjacent  to  the  lake  shore,  as  evidenced  by  the  Sebring 
development  east  of  Lake  Harbor  in  1923,  but  in  every  case  these 
operations  proved  inadequate  when  subjected  to  extreme  conditions 
and  these  failures  were  in  the  main  responsible  for  the  subdistrict 
development  where  better  engineering  lay-out  and  ample  capacity 
could  be  provided  for  larger  areas. 

Miss  Pascal.  Mr.  Beardsley,  do  you  know  what  size  units  these 
farmers  attempted  to  drain  or  control? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  I  remember  Sebring's  particularly  well.  I  don't 
remember  what  the  horsepower  was.  Mr.  Sebring,  who  belongs  to 
the  family  after  whom  the  town  in  Florida  was  named,  had  a  tract  of 
several  hundred  acres  and  put  in  a  steam  tractor  with  which  to  oper- 
ate his  pumps.  At  the  time  of  heavy  rainfall  the  boiler  of  the  tractor 
exploded  and  the  avocado  planting  which  was  being  protected  by  this 
operation  was  a  complete  loss.  This  equipment  was  replaced  by  a 
stationary  engine,  the  avocados  were  replanted  and  2  years  later  the 
"engine  broke  down  at  a  time  of  heavy  rainfall,  during  flood  conditions, 

60396— 42— pt.  33 11 


and  one  of  the  levees  broke  so  that  the  property  was  again  completely 
inundated  and  some  300  acres  of  avocados  were  a  total  loss. 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  the  dike  around  the  lake?  When  was  that 

Mr.  Beardsley.  About  1929  or  1930.  President  Hoover,  following 
representations  made  by  a  number  of  individuals  interested  in  the 
project,  made  a  trip  to  the  lake  section,  met  with  a  number  of  these 
interested  persons  at  the  Clewiston  Inn  in  Clewiston  and  discussed 
with  them  the  feasibility  of  construction  of  a  levee  around  the  major 
portion  of  the  shore  of  Lake  Okeechobee.  Upon  his  return  to  Wash- 
ington the  United  States  engineers  were  instructed  to  survey  the 
situation.  Their  report  on  the  work  was  favorable  and  the  construc- 
tion of  such  a  levee  commenced  in  1932.  This  levee  was  completed 
about  1938  and,  while  no  test  of  it  has  been  occasioned  by  storm 
conditions,  the  psychological  effect  in  the  minds  of  the  public  has  been 
such  as  to  create  a  renewed  interest  in  the  development  of  additional 
lands  in  the  area  because  of  the  feeling  that  there  will  not  be  recur- 
rences of  conditions  occasioned  by  the  1926  and  1928  hurricanes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  the  relationship  existing  between  a  subdrain- 
age  district  and  the  Everglades  drainage  district? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  The  subdrainage  districts  proposed  to  be  organized 
must  submit  to  the  Everglades  drainage  district  their  plan  of  reclama- 
tion and  they  are  not  permitted  to  seek  the  necessary  legislation 
authorizing  issuance  of  bonds  or  organization  of  the  district  until  the 
Everglades  drainage  district  has  approved  that  plan  of  reclamation 
as  well  as  the  financial  set-up. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  about  the  development  of  the  Ever- 
glades in  the  last  13  years? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Part  of  that  can  be  laid  to  the  discovery  that  our 
climatic  conditions  and  our  soil  would  permit  us  to  grow  midwinter 
beans.  Conditions  for  handling  them  were  not  the  best  and  it  was 
not  until  the  middle  thirties  that  the  packing  house  pack  of  beans 
became  the  standard  in  the  Glades  section.  With  that  improvement 
in  grade  and  pack,  the  northern  markets  recognized  the  reasonably 
secure  supply  available  and  the  quality  of  Everglades-grown  beans  so 
that  these  came  into  steady  demand  in  the  markets.  A  few  years  of 
fair  prices  and  satisfactory  returns  naturally  resulted  in  a  tremendous 
increase  in  plantings.  An  additional  factor  in  the  promotion  of 
increased  plantings  was  the  mechanization  of  the  field  operations. 
Whereas  formerly  beans  had  been  planted  with  one-horse  planters, 
introduction  of  more  satisfactory  small  tractors  and  planting  equip- 
ment made  beans  almost  entirely  a  mechanized  operation  up  to 
picking.  ... 

Miss  Pascal.  About  what  time  would  you  say  the  mechanization 
of  bean  growing  was  really  under  way? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  This  came  about  in  the  early  thirties. 

Miss  Pascal.  Then  beans  were  the  principal  crop  during  the  big 
development  of  the  Glades?  When  did  the  other  crops  start  commg 

Mr.  Beardsley.  They  had  always  been  here.  Even  these  bad 
years,  the  1926  or  1928  hurricanes,  lots  of  vegetables  were  being  grown 
around  here. 



Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  did  beans  remain  the  most  important  crop? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  They  still  are.  Because,  through  the  1930's, 
beans  offered  the  best  prospect  of  profit,  this  crop  occupied  perhaps  75 
percent  of  the  total  acreage  planted  to  vegetables  in  the  area,  but  the 
hazards,  floods,  frost,  and  disease  incident  to  the  cultivation  of  beans 
in  recent  years  has  led  the  far-seeing  vegetable  producer  to  the  pro- 
duction of  other  crops  in  which  profit  possibilities  might  not  be  so  high 
but  from  which  returns  might  be  more  secure. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Such  as  celery? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Such  as  celery,  which  is  the  most  expensive  to 
grow  of  any  vegetable  crop.  On  the  other  hand,  it  offers  the  most 
certain  returns.  Cabbage — an  in-and -outer — can  invariably  be  suc- 
cessfully grown,  but  is  not  always  marketed  at  a  profit.  You  can 
always  make  a  crop  of  cabbage.  I  never  saw  a  crop  of  cabbage  fail 
in  this  country.  The  development  of  crops  which  are  hardy  to  such 
cold  snaps  as  may  occur  is  recent  and  offers  additional  evidence  of 
the  search  for  stability  in  income,  while  not  offering  the  tremendous 
profits  sometimes  obtainable  from  beans. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  tell  us  why  it  is  that  diversification  makes 
for  more  stable  agriculture  in  this  region? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Stability  of  income,  we  farmers  generally  con- 
sider, covers  such  situations  as  frost  which  may  completely  wipe  out 
a  crop  of  beans,  but  not  affect  cabbage  in  the  least,  a  flood  which  may 
affect  a  deep  rooted  crop  on  lower  portions  of  any  given  farm  and  not 
affect  a  crop  such  as  celery  which  will  stand  a  very  high  water  table, 
winds  which  may  be  very  destructive  to  plants  and  quality  of  fruit 
or  tomatoes,  but  would  cause  practically  no  damage  to  cabbage  or 


Mr.  Tipton.  When  was  sugarcane  first  grown  down  here,  Mr. 

Mr.  Beardsley.  It  is  interesting  to  recall  that  the  first  attempts 
of  the  drainage  of  the  Everglades  were  in  an  effort  to  find  satisfactory 
sugarcane  land  and  Hamilton  Disston,  of  Philadelphia,  in  1881  made 
an  agreement  with  the  State  to  drain  the  Everglades.  He  was  to 
be  ceded  certain  lands  for  the  production  of  sugarcane.  At  that 
time  he  dug  two  of  the  canals  still  in  existence,  the  Three  Mile  and 
Nine  Mile  Canals  between  Moore  Haven  and  Clewiston,  connecting 
Lake  Okeechobee  and  Lake  Hicpochee.  Disston  gave  up  because  of 
the  immensity  of  the  project  and  so  far  as  I  know  from  the  records 
no  cane  was  actually  planted  by  Bim  in  the  Everglades  and  he  re- 
moved his  operations  to  St.  Cloud  in  the  Kissimmee  Valley  and  there 
did  grow  cane  on  muck  lands  for  3  or  4  years  until  the  muck  subsided 
and  evaporated.  Farmers  around  the  lake  shore  in  earlier  days 
generally  had  a  small  patch  of  cane  and,  in  a  survey  I  made  for  the 
county  agent  of  Palm  Beach  County  in  1920,  I  found  seven  sirup 
mills  along  the  lake  shore  between  South  Bay  and  the  west  county 
line,  a  distance  of  about  12  miles.  A  commercial  planting  of  cane 
was  begun  east  of  Moore  Haven  on  property  then  known  as  the 
Gramling  Place,  now  commonly  known  as  Benbow  because  of  the 
sugar  corporation  plantation  at  that  location,  where  several  hundred 


acres  of  cane  were  planted  for  the  purpose  of  producing  raw  sugar  in 
1920.  Prices  paid  for  the  land  and  insufficient  capital  investment 
are  responsible  for  the  failure  of  this  enterprise.  They  didn't  have 
enough  money  to  get  through  one  bad  season. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  they  put  up  a  sugar  mill? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  how  many  acres  were  planted? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  There  were  about  200  acres  of  cane  actually 
planted  and  a  mill  was  operated  for  at  least  one  season.  The  Martha 
Washington  Candy  Co.  subsequently  acquired  the  property  but  the 
project  was  abandoned.  In  1923  the  Florida  Sugar  &  Food  Products 
Co.  under  the  direction  of  F.  E.  Bryant,  now  eastern  division  superin- 
tendent for  the  United  States  Sugar  Corporation,  sold  considerable 
stock  for  capital,  planted  cane  and  erected  a  sugar  house  at  Canal 
Point.  At  that  time  no  one  connected  with  the  enterprise  or  in  the 
Everglades  generally  appreciated  fully  the  necessity  for  adequate 
water  control  and  the  Canal  Point  operation  was  virtually  abandoned 
by  1925  when  B.  J.  Dahlberg,  then  and  now  head  of  the  Celotex  Co., 
of  Chicago,  was  induced  to  survey  the  Everglades  section  with  a  view 
to  growing  cane  as  a  source  of  additional  bagasse  for  Celotex.  As  a 
result  of  this  survey  the  Dahlberg  interests  planted  cane  in  the  Clewis- 
ton  area,  subsequently  purchased  thousands  of  acres  of  land  around 
the  south  shore  of  the  lake,  including  the  Florida  Sugar  &  Food 
Products  plantation  at  Canal  Point,  and  erected  a  sugar  house  at 
Clewiston.  In  the  Dahlberg  plan,  bagasse  from  the  cane  was  to  be 
the  principal  product,  the  production  of  sugar  being  secondary  and, 
with  that  in  mind,  the  principal  varieties  of  cane  then  introduced  to 
the  Glades  and  planted  for  milling  at  the  sugar  house  were  varieties 
selected  for  high  fiber  content  without  regard  to  their  sugar  yield. 
The  Dahlberg  enterprise  was  predicated  upon  the  sale  of  additional 
stock  for  increase  in  capital  and,  following  the  1929  crash,  it  was 
impossible  to  continue  the  sale  of  stock  so  the  company,  known  as 
the  Southern  Sugar  Co.  was  thrown  into  bankruptcy  by  a  meat 
distributor  in  Tampa  on  June  30,  1930. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  the  Southern  Sugar  Co.  have  proper  water 
control  here  and  was  the  variety  of  cane  they  were  planting  satisfac- 
tory for  this  area? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  During  the  period  of  operations  of  the  Southern 
Sugar  Co.  there  was  general  recognition  throughout  the  territory  and 
particularly  by  this  concern  of  a  need  for  adequate  water  control  as  a 
prerequisite  to  successful  cane  or  any  other  type  of  farming  in  the 
Glades,  and  at  that  time  several  well-known  hydraulic  engineers  were 
employed  by  the  Southern  Sugar  Corporation  and  are  today  in  the 
employ  of  the  United  States  Sugar  Corporation. 

labor  supply 

Miss  Pascal.  Mr.  Beardsley,  you  said  awhile  ago  that,  in  the  period 
up  to  the  World  War,  all  of  the  work  around  here  was  done  by  the 
farmers  themselves,  by  the  fishermen  on  the  lake,  and  sometimes  by 
the  neighbors  who  would  come  over  and  help  harvest  cabbage.  When 
did  farming  here  reach  the  point  where  additional  labor  was  needed 
in  the  area? 


Mr.  Beardsley.  We  brought  in  our  first  Negroes  on  our  place  in 
1920.  We  used  a  few  in  1920.  In  1922  we  had  about  6  families  on 
our  place. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  did  you  get  them? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  They  came  from  Dade  County,  but  all  of  ours 
and  most  of  those  around  the  lake  were  Bahamians,  "Sau  Niggers," 
we  call  them,  from  Nassau,  who  have  never  returned.  The  real 
increase  in  the  population  of  Negroes  in  the  Glades  section  has  come 
with  the  tremendous  growth  of  the  vegetable  industry  since  the  early 

Miss  Pascal.  These  first  Negro  families  that  were  brought  m,  were 
they  brought  in  for  operations  all  during  the  season  or  just  as  harvest 

Mr.  Beardsley.  They  were  only  seasonal  employees  because  m 
that  day  virtually  nobody  farmed  in  the  summertime,  neither  cover 
crops  nor  anything  else,  so  that  most  of  them  went  back  down  to  the 
east  coast  to  spend  the  summer  and  came  back  in  the  fall. 

Miss  Pascal.  For  how  long  a  period  did  you  have  them  here? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  8  to  9  months. 

Miss  Pascal.  So  they  weren't  just  brought  in  for  the  harvest 

Mr.  Beardsley.  No;  they  took  about  the  same  vacation  as  the 
white  farmers  around  here,  they  would  check  out  of  the  country  and 
be  gone  for  3  months  in  the  summertime.  In  fact,  a  lot  of  them 
still  do. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  was  your  labor  experience  this  year? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  In  cutting  our  cane  we  had  about  20  hands  on  our 
farm  for  our  cane  harvest.  We  had,  this  year,  to  harvest  our  own 
cane,  and  we  also  did  a  harvesting  job  for  Judge  Couse,  one  of  our 
neighbors.  He  had  some  cane  east  of  Clewiston  and  in  harvesting 
his  crop  we  had,  in  one  day,  57  hands  in  the  field.  That  week  we  had 
81  names  on  the  pay  roll.  We  got  out  20  cars  of  cane  during  the 
week  which  would  be  a  normal  output  for  40  men.  Does  that  give 
you  an  idea  of  the  in-and-out? 

Miss  Pascal.  Was  that  turn-over  much  larger  than  usual  in  cane 

Mr.  Beardsley.  It  was  this  year.  Everywhere.  Practically  all 
of  the  independent  cane  farmers  had  the  same  story.  They  spent 
anywhere  from  $500  to  $2,000  in  recruiting  labor,  through  payments 
either  to  the  men  themselves  or  in  lieu  of  transportation  or  to  labor 
recruiters  with  trucks  who  brought  them  in  from  olJier  Southern 
States.  In  many  cases  Negro  recruiters  brought  truckloads  of  men, 
offered  to  keep  them  at  work  for  so  much  per  week,  and  this  was  even 
true  of  Negroes  living  in  the  migrant  camp  at  Belle  Glade  who  were 
thus  recruited.  We  actually  had  a  boy  by  the  name  of  Taylor  with 
2  trucks  who  brought  Negroes  out  of  that  camp  to  our  cane  field. 
He  offered  to  bring  them  over  every  day  for  $2  per  week  per  head,  in 
addition  to  $10  per  day  for  the  truck  for  the  transportation,  promising 
a  minimum  of  20  per  day.  We  tried  the  arrangement,  being  desperate 
for  additional  labor,  and  found  it  unsatisfactory  and  dropped  it. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Outside  of  this  arrangement  were  you  able  to  get  any 
cane  cutters  out  of  migrant  camps? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  In  our  operation  we  finally  sifted  out  of  some  60 
or  70  hands  from  the  migrant  camp  who  were  employed  for  periods  of 


several  hours  to  several  days,  8  men  who  stayed  with  us  practically  to 
the  end  of  the  season.  These  we  transported,  with  others  secured 
from  the  quarters  in  Belle  Glade,  with  our  own  truck  to  and  from  the 
job  each  day.  That's  all  the  help  we  got  out  of  the  migrant  camp.  I 
don't  know  what  we  are  going  to  do  to  get  them  to  go  to  work. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  mean  by  that  that  there  is  difficulty  to  get 
those  in  the  migrant  camp  to  go  to  work? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  I  don't  know  the  conditions  attendant  on  the 
operation  of  the  camp,  and  I  hesitate  to  make  any  remarks  about  how 
it  .is  being  handled,  because  I  don't  know,  but  I  have  heard  that  if 
they  are  back  in  their  rent  they  can  pay  it  by  pushing  a  lawnmower 
along  on  the  grass  and  that  takes  care  of  that  week's  rent;  that  there 
is  no  compulsion  on  them  to  go  out  and  make  a  living.  They  pick 
beans  for  1  day  and  make  $2.50,  and  that's  all  they  need. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  said  that  your  labor  turn-over  was  a  bigger  prob- 
lem this  year  than  it  had  been  before.     How  do  you  account  for  that? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  It  was  the  general  opinion  last  fall  that  there  would 
be  a  decided  shortage  of  labor  around  the  lake,  but  observation  of  the 
number  of  bean  fields  and  other  operations  indicated  that  there  was 
probably  an  adequate  supply  of  labor  in  the  territory.  I  am  at  a  loss 
how  to  express  the  indifference  and  independence  which  appears  to 
have  permeated  the  entire  area  around  here.  Perhaps  it  is  the  result 
of  lack  of  businesslike  planning  rather  than  inefficiency  of  the  camp 


Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  have  any  experience  with  the  Employment 
Service  officials? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Mr.  Jones,  of  the  Employment  Service,  who  was 
stationed  at  the  Okeechobee  camp — that's  the  colored  camp,  made 
every  effort  to  see  that  we  got  a  supply  of  labor  to  assist  in  cane  har- 
vesting, and  we  wrote  him  a  letter  of  appreciation  for  his  efforts.  But 
he  was  undoubtedly  handicapped  by  the  system  of  permitting  labor 
bosses  to  determine  where  and  for  how  much  the  men  would  work. 

Miss  Pascal.  Will  you  explain  how  the  system  operates? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Negro  boss  recruiters  with  trucks  were  accorded 
complete  run  of  the  camp.  Whether  or  not  the  men  were  those  who 
had  been  brought  into  the  section  and  deposited  in  the  camp  by  these 
recruiters,  it  was  the  practice  of  the  latter  to  make  the  rounds  each 
morning,  promising  soft  jobs  at  extravagant  wages,  thereby  securing 
a  truckload  of  hands  who  would  be  delivered  to  that  farmer  from 
whom  the  recruiter  thought  probable  he  could  secure  the  most  bonus 
per  head.  In  most  instances  neither  the  job  nor  the  pay  was  what 
had  been  promised  by  the  recruiter.  Many  of  the  81  men  previously 
mentioned,  on  1  week's  pay  roll  were  ostensibly  sent  to  our  job  by 
the  Employment  Service,  but  it  developed  that  the  Negro  recruiter, 
Taylor,  had  promised  wages  in  excess  of  what  our  best  men  were  earn- 
ing, so  that  many  of  these  men  worked  only  a  couple  of  hours  or  a 
day,  some  not  at  all,  but  for  these  men,  Taylor  collected  $2  per  head 
at  the  end  of  the  week.  The  following  week  a  dozen  of  the  best  work- 
ers voluntarily  returned  to  our  job,  but  when  we  refused  to  deal  further 
with  Taylor  we  found  it  impossible  to  secure  the  number  of  hands  which 
we  had  the  previous  week. 



Miss  Pascal.  What  do  you  have  in  mind  for  next  year? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  I  have  in  mind  for  next  year  keeping  the  family 
men  we  now  have,  moving  several  of  the  Belle  Glade  camp  boys  that 
worked  for  us  into  my  new  family  quarters.  Aside  from  our  old  em- 
ployees, our  most  satisfactory  help  came  from  a  group  from  St.  Peters- 
burg, and  we  expect  to  have  most  of  them  back. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Had  they  been  cane  cutters  before? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  They  had  not  cut  cane  except  in  a  small  way  on 
Georgia  or  Alabama  farms  where  they  were  raised.  They  felt  our 
operation  was  all  right  and  that  they  were  being  well  treated  or  they 
wouldn't  have  stayed  with  us. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  any  other  plans  for  recruiting  sufficient 
labor  for  your  operations? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  We  have  no  plans  other  than  to  scour  St.  Peters- 
burg for  former  employees,  and  to  secure  there  all  the  family  men  for 
whom  we  can  possibly  find  work,  even  if  we  have  to  "make"  some  of 
that  work.  It  is  possible  we  may  request  draft  deferment  for  some 
of  our  regular  hands. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  have  to  pay  appreciably  higher  wages  this 

Mr.  Beardsley.  The  requirements  of  the  Department  of  Agricul- 
ture for  compliance,  in  order  to  qualify  for  benefit  payments  under 
the  sugar  program,  is  that  labor  shall  be  paid  a  stipulated  amount  per 
day  for  all  operations  other  than  harvesting,  and  that  harvesting  shall 
be  at  a  stipulated  rate  per  ton  for  the  three  common  sizes  of  cane, 
small,  medium,  and  large. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  find  it  necessary  to  go  above  the  stipulated 

Mr.  Beardsley.  We  paid,  in  many  cases,  a  bonus  of  10  cents  per 
ton  above  the  stipulated  rate  in  order  to  increase  the  earnings  in  an 
attempt  to  hold  onto  our  labor,  not  because  they  were  not  making 
good  money  if  they  worked.  We  had  on  our  pay  roll — and  they  were 
not  expert  cane  cutters — the  Sugar  Corporation  will  exceed  these  fig- 
ures I  am  about  to  quote — six  or  eight  men  who  consistently  made 
$15  per  week  for  an  average  less  than  5-day  week.  By  that  I  mean 
effect  of  weather  conditions,  and  so  on;  we  worked  6  days. 

Miss  Pascal.  I  suppose  you  use  a  gang  system  similar  to  that  used 
by  the  Sugar  Corporation? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  That's  right,  only  on  a  much  smaller  scale. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Diversification  has  now  developed  into  a  situation 
where  there  is  not  only  diversification  in  vegetables,  but  also  diversi- 
fication between  vegetables  and  sugarcane  and  other  things? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  That's  right,  and  cattle.  We  have  70  head  of 
cattle  down  on  our  place  on  12  acres. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  the  Everglades  well  adapted  to  cattle  raising? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  From  the  earliest  day  of  our  residence  in  the 
Glades,  the  luxuriant  growth  of  wild  cat-tail  millet  gave  evidence  of 


the  adaptability  of  the  Glades  to  heavy  grass  production  for  stock 
feeding,  and  I  have  not  seen  anywhere  in  the  United  States  an  area 
which  averaged  the  Glades  in  pounds  of  beef  per  acre  from  grass. 
Water  control  is  still  a  problem,  but  can  be  handled.  Insects  are 
certainly  no  worse  than  in  other  Gulf-coast  areas.  Adequate  water 
control  is  tending  each  year  to  reduce  the  hazard  from  mosquitoes. 

Miss  Pascal.  In  your  real-estate  business  have  you  noticed  any 
tendency  over  the  years  for  the  size  of  farm  units  rented  to  tenants 
to  increase? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  Farm  units  have  increased  about  fourfold  in  the 
past  10  years. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  do  you  consider  as  being  the  minimum  amount 
of  Everglades  land  that  can  be  farmed  commercially  with  reasonable 
assurance  of  profit? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  A  living  can  be  made  from  10  acres  of  Everglades 
land  farmed  by  hand.  For  a  mechanized  operation,  to  produce  what 
is  now  considered  a  reasonable  income,  farms  should  be  not  less  than 
100  acr'es. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  tell  us  what  channels  you  use  to  market  your 
vegetables  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  When  operating  my  own  packing  operation  it  has 
been  my  practice  to  consign  to  one  of  the  several  of  reliable  concerns 
in  principal  markets  with  whom  I  have  dealt  for  some  20  years. 
Recently,  most  of  our  vegetables  have  been  packed  and  sold  by  pack- 
ing house  or  broker  in  either  Lake  Harbor  or  Belle  Glade,  on  f.  o.  b. 
basis.  When  my  vegetable  operations  are  not  sufficient  for  car  lots, 
say  50  to  100  crates  of  cabbage  or  tomatoes,  I  much  prefer  the  first- 
method  of  handling,  since  I  am  able  to  draft  against  the  car  on  the  day 
it  is  loaded,  for  funds  required  to  cover  harvesting  expense.  This 
requires,  of  course,  that  the  receiver  know  the  quality  and  pack  of 
my  product,  have  confidence  in  my  report  concerning  what  I  am  load- 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  other  growers  in  the  Everglades  use  the  same 
marketing  system? 

Mr.  Beardsley.  The  tendency  has  been  rapidly  toward  f.  o.  b. 
sales,  which  I  presume  today  cover  90  percent  of  our  loadings.  The 
10  percent  which  might  be  consigned  is  usually  because  buyers  refuse 
to  purchase  on  account  of  drop  in  prices.  The  f.  o.  b.  system  has  the 
advantage  of  the  grower  getting  cash,  but  it  has  disadvantages  in 
the  frequent  wait  for  buyers  to  clear  in  subsequent  rejects  and  claims 
for  deductions  and  certain  other  bad  features,  but  has  become  the 
standard  practice  because  most  of  the  deal  is  financed  by  commission 
houses,  through  local  brokers  or  by  the  brokers  themselves.  This 
system  naturally  requires  that  the  grower  sell  his  produce  through  the 
channel  from  which  he  will  secure  his  financing.  I  prefer  the  consign- 
ment system,  because  I  finance  my  own  crop  and  can  distribute  it  as 
I  see  fit,  at  Cincinnati  or  Potomac  Yards,  to  the  best  receiving  market 
and,  once  having  placed  it,  can  draw  draft  for  my  expenses,  fre- 
quently in  an  amount  equal  to  that  offered  f.  o.  b. 

Miss  Pascal.  Will  you  tell  us  something  about  the  drainage 
problems  arising  as  farming  operations  in  the  Everglades  expand  into 
newly  reclaimed  lands? 


Mr.  Beardsley.  The  basic  plan  for  development  of  new  areas  in 
the  Glades  calls  for  maintenance  areas  to  be  set  up  in  the  form  of  the 
present  subdrainage  districts,  most  economically  from  eight  to  ten 
thousand  acres,  with  a  central  pumping  plant  and  a  plan  of  reclama- 
tion considered  adequate  to  handle  water  control.  Due  to  the 
incapacity  of  the  major  district,  the  Everglades  drainage  district, 
because  of  its  financial  difficulties,  lack  of  engineering  staff,  and  so 
forth,  many  individual  operations  have  been  set  up  along  the  main 
channels  of  the  Everglades  district  with  small  pumping  plants,  and 
the  multiplicity  of  these  is  creating  the  situation  of  confusion  not 
contemplated  in  the  basic  plan.  It  is  hoped  that  in  the  future  such 
operators,  by  persuasion  or  by  enforcement  of  the  law,  will  see  the 
wisdom  of  the  subdistrict  plan  embracing  a  considerable  territory 
in  preparing  lands  for  development,  so  that  we  have  a  unit  rather 
than  an  individual  farm  water-control  operation.  A  further  problem, 
corollary  to  development  in  either  of  the  lines  above,  is  the  need  for 
increasing  the  capacity  of  the  present  canals  of  the  Everglades  drainage 
district,  which  are  completely  inadequate  at  the  present  time  to 
handle  the  volume  of  water  necessary  and  which  will  be  called  on  in  the 
near  future  to  handle  the  increasing  amounts  as  additional  pumping 
facilities  are  installed  on  these  canals. 


Miss  Pascal.  What  future  agricultural  development  in  the  Glades 
do  you  anticipate  and  what  type  of  development  do  you  believe  most 

Mr.  Beardsley.  At  the  moment  I  cannot  hazard  a  prediction  as 
to  future  agricultural  development.  It  is  commonly  estimated,  and 
I  agree,  that  there  is  upward  of  500,000  acres  suitable  for  the  produc- 
tion of  sugarcane,  but  if,  under  stress  of  war,  production  from  this 
section  is  nevertheless  unable  to  obtain  assurance  of  production  for 
increased  plantings,  then  it  is  impossible  to  say  we  will  ever  produce 
more  than  our  present  100,000  tons  of  sugar,  instead  of  the  500,000 
which  we  would  be  capable  of  producing  within  the  next  5  years. 
Although  increased  starch  production  is  earnestly  desired  by  W.  P.  B., 
and  the  Glades  has  demonstrated  its  capacity  to  produce  sweetpotato 
starch  exceeding  that  of  any  other  section  of  the  country,  and  under 
priorities,  for  their  procurement,  facilities  have  not  been  made  avail- 
able. It  is  conceivable  that,  after  the  war,  such  starch  production 
can  be  economically  profitable  in  competition  with  foreign  areas  and 
no  prediction  is  possible  of  the  probable  planting. 

Ample  evidence  is  available,  from  experience  of  the  past  several 
years,  and  the  work  of  the  Everglades  Experiment  Station,  that 
cattle  can  be  more  economically  fattened  on  Glades  grass  than  by 
any  other  means  and  years  of  experience  presage  a  tremendous  de- 
velopment along  this  line  in  the  middle  Glades  area. 

Of  fiber  plants,  ramie  at  present  seems  most  promising  but  there 
are  a  number  of  others  which  seem  to  offer  great  possibilities  for  future 
development.  You  will  note  that  the  four  items — sugar,  starch,  beef, 
and  fiber — are  all  lines  which  offer  reasonable  stability  as  compared 
with  the  hazard  of  vegetable  production,  which  latter  will  continue 
to  keep  a  prominent  place  in  the  agriculture  economy,  because  of  the 


prospective  profits  within  an  area  subject  only  occasionally  to  freezing 
temperatures  such  as  that  adjacent  to  the  lake. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Beardsley. 

BELLE  GLADE,  FLA.,  APRIL  25,   1942 

Miss  Pascal.  Will  you  give  your  name  and  address  for  the  record? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Annie  Tompkins,  Box  125,  Chosen,  Fla. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  are  there  in  your  family? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Seven  of  us  at  home  now. 

Miss  Pascal.  Your  husband  and  five  children? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  I  have  one  boy  in  the  service  and  one  daughter 
married,  seven  in  all. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  have  you  been  living  in  this  camp? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Since  last  October,  a  year  ago. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  lived  in  the  camp  continuously  since  a  year 
ago  last  October? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  sort  of  work  does  your  family  do? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  They  have  been  working  in  the  packing  house, 
agricultural  work.  We  have  a  little  garden  spot.  This  morning  we 
were  canning  up  some  beans  in  the  camp  cannery.  I  work  at  the 
lunchroom  myself.     The  rest  of  the  family  work  in  the  packing  houses. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Your  husband  works  in  the  packing  plant?  How 
many  of  the  children  work  there? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  One. 

Miss  Pascal.  In  what  packing  houses  do  they  work,  bean  or  celery? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  They  have  been  working  in  tomatoes,  packing 
tomatoes  and  potatoes  and  things  like  that.  Yesterday  and  today 
he  has  been  working  in  beans. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  are  you  from  originally? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  From  Georgia. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  farm  in  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Cotton,  corn,  tobacco,  peanuts. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  own  your  own  farm  up  there? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  No;  we  rented. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  ago  did  you  leave  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Seven  years. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  you  go  from  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  went  over  to  Boynton,  Fla. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  were  you  there? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  I  don't  exactly  know,  probably  8  or  10  months, 
something  like  that.  We  stayed  there  and  we  worked  on  the  farm 
some  there  and  my  husband  worked  on  the  roads,  State  road  depart- 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  from  there? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  went  to  Plant  City.  We  worked  in  straw- 
berries. We  went  over  there  just  before  Christmas,  so  that  we  got 
in  on  the  strawberry  harvest.  When  we  completed  there  we  went  in 
to  Hammond,  La. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  do  they  grow  there? 


Mrs.  Tompkins.  Strawberries  mostly.  That's  all  we  worked  in. 
They  grow  a  few  vegetables,  but  they  come  on  later  than  we  stayed. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  were  you  there? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  I  would  say  we  worked  there  about  60  days  until 
the  season  was  over. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  then  where  did  you  move? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Kentucky. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  did  you  do  there? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  picked  strawberries  there,  at  Paducah. 

Miss  Pascal.  When  does  that  season  end? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  The  latter  part  of  May.     It  doesn't  last  long. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That's  a  short  season? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes;  it's  real  short. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  where  did  you  go  from  Kentucky? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Last  year  we  went  right  straight  into  Michigan. 
We  have  picked  in  Illinois,  but  not  last  year.  The  fruit  harvest  in 
Michigan — we  begin  with  strawberries  and  pick  raspberries  and 
cherries,  and  that's  in  Berrien  County.  We  went  to  Baroda,  that's 
close  to  Berrien  Springs.  That's  where  we  first  went  picking,  right 
on  the  side  of  Benton  Harbor.  We  picked  raspberries  there,  too,  that 
year.  We  have  picked  up  a  little  further.  From  there  we  went  into 
cherries  at  Hart,  Mich. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  you  go  from  Hart? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  dropped  back  down  to  Indiana  and  picked 
tomatoes.     That's  where  we  make  the  most  money,  in  tomatoes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  just  happen  to  strike  a  good  year  there  or  is 
it  usually  good  money? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  It  is  usually  true.  Then  from  Indiana  we  generally 
drift  back  to  Florida. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  do  you  get  back? 


Mrs.  Tompkins.  In  October,  sometimes  a  little  earlier.  One  year 
we  went  to  California  instead  of  going  to  Florida. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  jTear  was  that? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  I  believe  it  was  1938. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  happen  to  go  to  California? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  just  heard  people  talk  that  had  been  out  there 
and  we  decided— to  be  plain,  we  just  flipped  a  coin  to  tell  whether 
we  would  go  to  California  or  Florida. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  find  it  out  in  California? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  It  wasn't  exactly  like  I  expected.  You  hear  you 
can  go  to  California  and  sleep  out  every  night  but  there  was  a  lot  of 
ice  there.  We  were  in  Brawley,  down  in  Imperial  Valley,  but  before 
we  went  there,  we  stopped  at  Tucson,  Ariz.,  and  picked  cotton  a  few 
days.     There  is  plenty,  but  it  is  tough  work. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  were  down  in  Imperial  Valley? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  went  in  a  Government  camp  there,  in  a  F.  S.  A, 
camp  in  Brawley. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  vou  work  any  place  else  in  California? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  worked  at  Brawley  and  worked  at  Calipatria. 
We  went  up  into  Salinas  Valley.     We  worked  in  peas. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Then  where  did  you  go  from  Salinas? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Into  Idaho  for  peas.  There  were  quite  a  few 
cherries  around  there  but  we  didn't  pick  any. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  you  go  from  Idaho? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  came  back,  then,  to  Michigan. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  year  the  California  trip  just  took  the  place 
of  the  Florida  trip  and,  for  7  years,  with  the  exception  of  the  year 
you  went  to  California,  you  have  made  the  rounds  from  south  Florida 
to  Michigan,  stopping  at  these  various  places  in  Louisiana,  Kentucky, 
and  Indiana.  And  you  found  that  the  year  you  went  to  California 
wasn't  as  satisfactory  as  the  others ;  is  that  right? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Well,  we  never  did  like  to  go  back.  Of  course,  it 
wasn't  so  bad  but  I  guess  it  wasn't  what  we  were  used  to  or  something. 
Down  in  the  Imperial  Valley  there  is  no  vegetation,  only  what  is 
irrigated  and  just  fine  dust. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Was  the  one  at  Brawley  the  only  Government  camp 
that  you  found? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  There  was  another.  That  was  a  floating  camp, 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  find  any  in  Salinas? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  didn't  get  in  one  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  find  housing  conditions  in  those  areas 
where  you  didn't  live  in  the  Government  camps? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  It  was  not  available  unless  you  had  your  own  tent. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  carried  a  tent  around  with  you? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes;  we  had  a  luggage  trailer. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  always  travel  around  in  your  car? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes,  ma'am. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  are  your  tires  now? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  We  couldn't  get  any  tires,  I  suppose,  these  days, 
but  I  wasn't  figuring  on  leaving  this  summer.  I  stayed  all  last  year. 
I  work  in  the  camp  lunchroom.     I  like  it  here. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  the  whole  family  stay  here  last  summer? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  I  had  one  son  went  up  to  Michigan.  He  was  just 
hitting  for  the  cherries,  though,  and  then  came  back. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  you  are  settling  down  here  for  a  while? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes,  I  do. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  are  going  to  give  up  your  travels  between 
Michigan  and  Florida? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  It  is  like  this,  I  might  go  again  sometime  when 
things  get  better,  but  I  didn't  know  how  it  would  be  to  travel  now. 

traveled  same  route  several  years 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  approximately  how  many  weeks  out 
of  the  year,  during  that  time  when  you  were  making  these  rounds, 
you  were  able  to  find  some  kind  of  picking  work? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Well,  I'll  tell  you,  unless  a  season  happened  late 
or  something  other  like  that,  when  we  left  the  one  job  we  knew  what 
time  we  were  going  to  work  in  another,  for,  after  the  first  year,  we 
always  had  a  certain  place  to  go  back  to  and  they  would  write  us 
whenever  it  would  be  ready  for  us. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  you  were  regularly  in  correspondence  with 
these  people  you  had  worked  for? 


Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes,  sir.  We  corresponded  with  them  all  of  the 
time,  and  when  we  left  Idaho  and  came  back  to  cherries,  we  knew 
what  we  were  going  to  get  in  cherries  because  we  have  always  corre- 
sponded with  the  people  we  worked  for. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  originally  make  these  contacts? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  You  see,  the  first  year  we  went  up,  we  just  went 
on  chance,  you  know,  and  we  worked  with  them  and  we  went  back 
again.  They  would  write  us  that  they  had  good  crops,  or  what 
time,  and  they  were  always  fair  with  us.  They  would  tell  us  if  the 
crop  was  good  or  not.  If  it  wasn't  good  they  would  tell  us  who  had 
a  good  crop  in  the  neighborhood. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  these  people  ever  suggest  that  you  bring  other 
harvesters  along? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes;  at  times  they  did.  If  they  had  an  extra 
crop,  they  would  ask  us  to  bring  workers  along. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Were  you  ever  able  to  get  others  to  travel  along  with 
you  to  the  same  places? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes,  sir;  quite  a  lot. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  know  many  people  who  make  this  round  you 
have  described  between  here  and  Michigan? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes;  there  are  quite  a  few.  There  are  quite  a 
few  people — well,  I  know  people  from  several  States  that  make  the 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  when  you  are  traveling  around  you  quite 
often  meet  people  that  you  know  from  other  areas? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes,  sir.  They  would  say  "I'll  see  you  in 
Florida"  or  "I'll  see  you  in  Michigan,"  and  they  would  all  be  there. 
It  is  quite  a  lot  of  fun.  Sometimes  there  would  be  several  of  us  pull 
out  from  a  place  at  one  time  and  we  would  say  "We  will  eat  supper  at 
such  and  such  a  place."  We  hardly  ever  pulled  in  a  tourist  camp  or 
anything  like  that.  We  would  stop  some  place  and  all  cook  and  eat 
and  have  supper  and  sit  around  the  campfire  and  probably  sleep  a 
little  bit  and  get  up  and  go  again. 

farm  security  administration  migratory  camps 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  think  of  these  Government  camps, 
Mrs.  Tompkins? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  I  think  they  are  a  splendid  thing  for  the  poor 

Mr.  Tipton.  Your  living  conditions  in  Government  camps  are 
better  than  where  there  are  no  camps? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes,  sir;  because  you  see  we  don't  have  any  sani- 
tation most  places. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  it  hard  to  get  water  and  accommodations? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes,  sir.  But  we  have  a  nice  cannery  here,  you 
know,  and  we  can  anything  we  want  to.  If  we  get  hold  of  vegetables, 
the  camp  furnishes  cans  and  the  place  to  can  them.  We  just  give  two 
out  of  the  dozen  as  toll.  Then  we  have  utility  buildings,  hot  and  cold 
running  water  at  all  times,  lots  of  tubs,  clotheslines,  ironing  boards, 
irons,  showers,  and  we  have  a  good  school  right  here,  and  they  have 
a  lunchroom  where  the  children  all  get  lunch.  They  pay  a  nickel  for 
their  lunch  and  get  a  good  lunch  and  a  drink.  If  they  don't  have  the 
nickel  they  get  lunch  free.     Here  they  have  grounds  for  the  children  to 


play  and  they  have  swings  and  things  like  that  for  them  to  play  and 
have  a  recreation  hall  to  go  to  at  night,  or  in  the  day  either,  ball 
grounds,  a  basketball  court. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  done  any  vegetable  gardening  here? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes,  we  have.  Back  in  there  [indicating]  are  a  lot 
that  has  vegetables  and  a  few  have  chickens.  Of  course,  we  don't 
live  on  the  outer  edge,  but  we  do  have  a  garden  spot. 

Miss  Pascal.  Can  anyone  who  wants  to  garden  take  over  a  patch 
and  grow  things  for  their  own  use? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes.  Another  thing  here,  too,  they  don't  have 
any  speeding  and  one  doesn't  feel  uneasy  about  a  child  being  out  on 
the  road  or  anything  like  that.  We  have  the  use  of  the  clinic  and 
all  that. 

Miss  Pascal.  They  have  a  nursery  here,  don't  they? 

Mrs.  Tompkins.  Yes;  they  have  a  nursery.  They  have  a  nursery 
for  the  children  and  take  care  of  them  when  the  parents  have  to  work. 

Miss  Pascal.  Thank  you,  Mrs.  Tompkins. 

BELLE  GLADE,  FLA.,  APRIL  27,  1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  your  name  and  address? 

Mr.  Solomon.  James  Solomon,  Belle  Glade,  Fla.,  general  delivery. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  are  you  from? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Dawson,  Ga. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  have  you  been  down  here? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Since  1938. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  go  back  up  to  Dawson  in  the  summertime? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  have  been  twice. 

Mr.  Tipton.  The  rest  of  the  time  you  stayed  down  here? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  do  down  here? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  hoe  cane. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  cut  cane,  too? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  do  you  hoe  cane  and  how  long  do  you  cut 

Mr.  Solomon.  You  hoe  6  months  and  you  cut  6  months. 

Miss  Pascal.  Whom  do  you  work  for? 

Mr.  Solomon.  United  States  Sugar  Corporation. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  have  you  lived  here  in  the  camp? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  came  here  in  October,  I  think,  of  this  last  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  come  in  here  when  you  came  down  from 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  live  in  the  camp  last  year? 

Mr.  Solomon.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  you  live? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Miami  Locks. 

Mr.  Tipton.  About  10  miles  down  toward  Clewiston? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  you  live  down  there? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  stayed  in  a  fellow's  quarters,  Mr.  Charley  Thomas. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  work  for  the  Sugar  Corporation  then? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  ever  live  in  a  Sugar  Corporation  camp? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  stayed  down  there  about  3  months  in  the  cane 

Mr.  Tipton.  Was  that  the  first  3  months  of  the  season  that  you 
stayed  in  the  camp  or  the  last  3? 

Mr.  Solomon.  The  first  3. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  happen  to  move  out  of  the  camp  into 
Mr.  Thomas'  quarters? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  was  sick  1  day  and  the  man  wanted  to  make  me 
work,  the  superintendent,  foreman. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  didn't  want  to  work  when  you  were  sick,  so  you 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  have  to  move? 

Mr.  Solomon.  No,  sir;  I  didn't  have  to  move. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  you  had  to  move  or  work;  was  that  the  idea? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  go  back  to  work  when  you  got  well? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir;  the  same  place,  but  I  stayed  at  another 
man's  quarters,  Mr.  Charley  Thomas. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  work  all  this  season  for  the  Sugar  Corpor- 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  didn't  work  quite  all  the  season,  I  was  off  about  a 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  did  you  work  for  the  Sugar  Corporation? 

Mr.  Solomon.  About  4  months.  They  start  hoeing  now,  this 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  does  the  hoeing  last? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Until  about  the  last  of  September.  It  lasts  6 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then,  when  the  hoeing  is  finished,  it  is  time  to  start 
cutting  again? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  you  moved  right  into  this  camp  when  you  came 
clown  this  year? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then  you  went  to  work  right  away,  cutting  cane,  for 
the  sugar  company? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  you  worked  for  them  4  months.  What  did  you 
do  the  rest  of  the  time? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  worked  in  cabbage  for  Mr.  W.  K,.  Hooker. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  happen  to  quit  cutting  cane  and  go  to 
work  in  cabbage? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  was  cutting  some  and  toting  some  and  I  got  dis- 
abled to  tote.  It  got  me  down  in  my  back  so  I  wasn't  able  to  tote, 
tote  it  to  the  wagon  and  load  it,  so  I  told  the  man  I  couldn't,  and  he 
said  I  had  to,  and  I  said  if  I  have  to  tote,  I  will  quit. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  then  you  went  to  working  in  cabbage? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  was  this? 

Mr.  Solomon.  It  was  before  Christmas. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  a  family? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  big? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Me  and  my  wife,  no  children. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Were  you  married  when  you  lived  at  the  Sugar 
Corporation  quarters?     Did  you  have  a  room  in  one  of  their  houses? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes;  one  room. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  you  moved  to  Thomas'  quarters,  how  much 
rent  did  you  pay? 

Mr.  Solomon.  $1  a  week. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  have  to  pay  that  yourself? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Were  there  other  people  living  in  Mr.  Thomas' 
quarters  that  worked  for  the  Sugar  Corporation,  paying  $1  a  week? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Some  of  the  rooms  they  had  to  pay  $2  a  week  for. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  they  all  had  to  pay  that  themselves? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  sir. 


Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  find  that  you  could  make  as  much  money 
in  cabbage  as  you  could  working  in  cane  cutting? 

Mr.  Solomon.  No,  ma'am,  not  altogether.  I  got  $2  a  day  for 

Miss  Pascal.  By  the  day? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes,  ma'am. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  about  sugarcane? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  would  average  $2.50  in  cane,  sometimes  $3. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  the  hours  longer  in  cane  than  in  cabbage? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  ever  pick  beans? 

Mr.  Solomon.  No,  ma'am. 

Miss  Pascal.  Which  do  you  like  best,  working  in  cabbage  or  work- 
ing in  sugarcane? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  like  the  cabbage  the  best  for  the  work  but  it's 
about  played  out  so  I  started  back  cutting  cane. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  did  you  start  cutting  cane  again? 

Mr.  Solomon.  About  the  last  of  March. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  did  you  cut  cane  that  time? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  stopped  2  weeks,  tomorrow. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  you  going  back  to  Georgia  this  summer? 

Mr.  Solomon.  I  am  going  to  stay  down  here. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  do  you  plan  to  do  next? 

Mr.  Solomon.  The  same  thing,  I  imagine. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  you  going  to  cut  cane  next  year? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes;  if  nothing  don't  happen. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  know  whether  there  are  many  of  the  boys 
who  work  for  the  sugar  company  living  in  quarters  like  Mr.  Thomas' — 
in  Belle  Glade  or  Pahokee? 

Mr.  Solomon.  There  is  plenty  live  in  Belle  Glade  work  down  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  other  places? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Down  at  South  Bay,  some  of  the  boys  work  there, 
but  they  don't  stay  in  the  camp  but  they  stay  at  another  place. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  the  cane  camps  ever  filled  up  so  that  there  is  no 
room  for  all  the  boys  in  the  camp? 


Mr.  Solomon.  No. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  they  just  don't  want  to  stay  in  the  camp,  they 
prefer  to  stay  outside? 
Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Why  do  you  suppose  that  is? 
Mr.  Solomon.  When  one  is  sick  he  has  to  go  whether  he  is  well  or 

not.  •      •  i 

Mr.  Tipton.  He  has  to  go  out  and  work  whether  he  is  sick  or  not? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  if  they  don't  live  in  the  camp,  they  don't  have  to 
go  out  when  they  don't  want  to? 

Mr.  Solomon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you. 

TESTIMONY    OF     HOWARD     I.     HANEY,     BELLE     GLADE,     FLA., 
APRIL  23  AND  26,   1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  your  name  and  occupation  for  the 

Mr.  Haney.  Howard  L.  Haney,  farmer,  Belle  Glade,  Fla. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  acres  do  you  operate,  Mr.  Haney? 

Mr.  Haney.  Possibly  2,000  acres. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  is  the  amount  you  own? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  In  any  one  season,  how  much  of  that  is  operated? 

Mr.  Haney.  Eight  hundred. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  800  acres  cropped  more  than  once  during  the 

Mr.  Haney.  Very  seldom. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  are  the  main  crops  that  you  grow? 

Mr.  Haney.  Potatoes,  cabbage,  celery,  some  grass  used  as  pasture 
for  fattening  cattle. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  give  us  an  idea  of  how  the  800  acres  is  divided 
between  the  various  crops? 

Mr.  Haney.  One  hundred  and  sixty  celery,  the  same  of  potatoes, 
and  about  120  cabbage,  and  the  balance  pasture. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  have  you  been  farming  in  this  area? 

Mr.  Haney.  Six  years. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  came  here  from  where? 

Mr.  Haney.  Sarasota  County. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  have  you  farmed  in  Florida? 

Mr.  Haney.  Since  '28.  We  started  in  the  year  '29.  This  is  the 
thirteenth  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  were  a  farmer -previously? 

Mr.  Haney.  In  Michigan. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  type  of  farming? 

Mr.  Haney.  General  farming. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  ever  raise  any  celery  in  Michigan? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  I  raised  celery  in  Michigan. 

Mr.  Tipton.  About  how  large  an  acreage? 

Mr.  Haney.  Not  a  very  large  acreage.  It  was  diversified,  very 
diversified  there,  you  know.  Everything  from  grains,  small  fruit, 
hay,  and  some  celery. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  why  you  left  Michigan  and  came  to 
south  Florida  to  farm? 

60396— 42— pt.  33 12 


Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  it  was  on  account  of  my  health.  J  came  to  Flor- 
ida for  my  health.  Too  much  cold  weather  in  Michigan.  I  couldn't 
stand  the  cold. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Would  you  say  that  the  bulk  of  the  growers  down  here 
are  people  who  have  come  from  out  of  the  State  of  Florida  or  are  most 
of  them  old  Florida  residents? 

Mr.  Haney.  Most  of  them  in  this  immediate  vicinity  are  natives  of 
Florida.  Now,  I  say  natives.  They  have  been  here  since  the  section 
opened  up.  You  see  this  is  a  relatively  new  section  of  the  country, 
this  immediate  section.  You  go  to  a  pioneer  meeting  and  people  that 
have  been  here  20  years  are  old  timers.  You  see,  there  was  virtually 
nothing  here  20  years  ago. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  you  say  most  of  the  people  here  are  old  time 
residents  of  Florida,  you  are  thinking  in  terms  of  15  or  20  years? 

Mr.  Haney.  But  it  is  a  fact  that  most  of  them  are  native  born. 
There  are  some  from  Georgia,  of  course.  I  can  think  of  a  half  dozen 
right  now  from  Georgia,  but  I  believe  there  are  more  from  Florida  than 
any  other  State. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  northern  States,  Michigan,  Ohio,  places 
like  that? 

Mr.  Haney.  Well,  one  of  our  largest  farmers  here  is  from  Michigan, 
but  I  think  of  very  few  outside  of  us  two. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  say  you  came  here  from  Sarasota.  Did  you  grow 
celery  in  Sarasota? 

Mr.  Haney.  Nothing  but  celery. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Why  did  you  move  from  Sarasota  to  the  Glades? 

Mr.  Haney.  There  was  no  room  for  expansion  there  in  Sarasota. 
The  land  available  was  very  limited.  Prices  were  high.  That  land 
up  there  is  around  $700  an  acre. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  type  of  irrigation  is  necessary  over  in  Sarasota? 

Mr.  Haney.  They  use  what  is  termed  "seepage"  irrigation  and  get 
their  water  supply  from  artesian  wells. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That's  not  the  same  sort  of  a  proposition  as  tile  drain- 
ing at  Sanford? 

Mr.  Haney.  No;  they  use  mole  plows.  They  use  mole  plows  for 
making  irrigation  drains  through  the  soil. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  type  of  soil  is  it  in  Sarasota? 

Mr.  Haney.  That's  a  muck.  You  see  that  was  a  drained  lake.  All 
of  the  celery  farming  in  Sarasota  County  was  in  an  old  drained  lake. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  a  true  muck  in  contrast  to  the  peat? 

Mr.  Haney.  No;  it's  peat. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Mr.  Haney,  would  vyou  give  us  a  description  of  the 
soil  types  here  and  what  is  necessary  for  bringing  the  land&under  cul- 
tivation and  the  way  in  which  that  process  of  bringing  the  land  under 
cultivation  is  carried  out? 

Mr.  Haney.  You  start  out  with  raw  peat  soil,  grassland.  Of 
course,  that  grows  to  a  height  of  about  6  feet,  very  coarse  grass  with 
very  fibrous  roots,  roots  that  require  some  time,  probably  8  months 
or  longer,  to  disintegrate  and  become  a  part  of  the  soil,  which  is 
contrary  to  most  any  other  grass  that  you  might  have  to  contend 
with.     So  the  first  process  is  plowing  under  the  grass  as  deeply  as 


you  can  plow  it.  This  should  be  done  in  the  winter.  Then  we  allow 
it  to  go  under  water,  that  is,  we  don't  pump  the  water  off  it  in  the 
summer.  We  allow  it  to  go  under  water  the  following  summer. 
The  whole  area,  of  course,  has  previously  been  ditched  and  diked 
and  a  pumping  system  installed.  Then,  about  August,  you  pump 
the  water  off  and  till  it  thoroughly.  By  working  it  thoroughly, 
you  can  grow  a  crop  of  Irish  potatoes.  Up  until  now,  that's  the  only 
thing  we  have  found  that  we  can  successfully  grow  on  raw  sawgrass 
land  the  first  year.  After  another  deep  plowing  and  a  further  curing 
process  the  next  summer,  it  is  available  for  other  vegetable  crops, 
principally  leaf  vegetables  such  as  celery,  escarole,  romaine,  any  of 
the  leaf  crops  that  we  can  grow  with  profit.  Of  course,  in  the  mean- 
time, it  has  been  necessary  to  supply  the  soil  with  secondary  elements, 
principally  copper.  Next  in  line,  I  think,  would  be  zinc  and  man- 
ganese and  boron. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  quantities  of  the  different  elements  are 

Mr.  Haney.  Well,  the  different  farmers,  of  course,  have  developed 
different  techniques  and  different  ideas  in  that  respect,  but  the 
general  practice— and  of  course  our  experimental  station  is  finding 
out  more  about  that  each  year — I  would  say  now,  would  be  approxi- 
mately 50  pounds  of  copper  and  25  pounds  of  zinc  and  about  1  pound 
of  boron  to  the  acre. 

Miss  Pascal.  This  description  applies  to  the  peat  land,  doesn't  it? 
Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  that  applies  to  the  sawgrass  land.     Now  we 
have  other  soils — lake  bottom,  for  example,  which  is  land  that  has 
been  brought  into  use  since  the  new  dike  was  put  up. 
Miss  Pascal.  Where  is  that  located? 

Mr.  Haney.  Around  the  dike.  A  dike  goes  around  the  lake  for 
protection  against  floods  during  hurricane  season.  Next  would  come 
what  is  known  as  custard  apple  land,  so  called  because  there  was  a 
rim  around  the  lake,  a  belt,  maybe  a  mile  or  less  wide,  that  was 
covered  with  custard  apples,  and  the  reason  it  was  covered  with 
custard  apples  was  because  it  was  a  strong  land,  a  silt  land  that 
had  come  under  the  influence  of  the  lake  in  the  past,  ages  past,  and 
had  a  greater  deposit  of  silt  and  a  greater  deposit  of  the  essential 
secondaries  that  were  washed  down  from  the  Kissimee  River  Valley 
through  the  Kissimee  River. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Before  you  go  on,  may  I  ask,  how  wide  is  this  strip  of 
custard  apple  muck? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  varies.  Where  the  bank  wasn't  built  up  as  rapidly 
in  some  places  as  it  was  in  others,  it  would  spread  out.  I  don't 
know  exactly,  but  this  could  be  found  out  be  getting  a  report  on  the 
Soil  Science  meeting  that  just  ended  in  West  Palm  Beach.  They 
had  a  Soil  Science  meeting  there  beginning  Tuesday  and  ending  this 
afternoon,  a  combination  of  soil  science  and  horticulture,  and  Dr. 
Allison,  who  has  taken  a  great  interest  in  the  Glades  and  has  probably 
been  instrumental  in  perfecting  the  science  of  cultivation  more  than 
any  other  person  here,  has  given  an  excellent  description  of  these 
various  areas. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Who  is  Dr.  Allison? 

Mr.  Haney.  Dr.  Allison  is  a  man  who,  at  one  time,  had  charge  of 
the  experimental  station  here.  About  2  or  3  years  ago,  or  back 
at  the  time  we  were  having  difficulty  in  the  Dust  Bowl,  he  was  called 


to  Washington  and  spent  some  time  out  there  and  at  present  is  in 

Mr.  Tipton.  Connected  with  the  University? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  connected  with  the  University.  The  next  type, 
before  you  get  to  the  sawgrass,  is  what  is  known  as  elderberry  land 
and  is  called  that  because  that's  what  grows  on  it — elderberries.  It  is 
considerably  more  fertile  than  the  sawgrass  but  not  as  fertile  as  the 
custard  apple  and  then  it  gradually  fades  out  into  the  pure  sawgrass 
land.  Now  this  plastic  soil  that  accounts  for  these  various  tvpes  is 
all  over  the  productive  land,  whether  it  is  sawgrass  or  what  it  is,  but 
in  the  sawgrass  area,  it  is  down  beyond  reach,  next  to  the  rock.  You 
see,  this  peat  land  is  all  resting  on  solid  rock.  It  is  just  a  porous,  but 
solid,  rock,  and  there  will  bel6  inches  to  2  feet  layer  of  this  plastic 
materia]  right  next  to  the  rock.  In  digging  a  canal,  when  you  turn 
that  up,  that  comes  on  top  on  the  ditch  banks.  It  is  very  productive 
and  you  can  grow  anything  there  without  fertilizer.  Now,  here  where 
we  are,  we  are  about  6  miles  from  the  lake  and  that  plastic  layer  at 
this  time  is  about  14  inches  below  the  surface.  The  top  is  sawgrass. 
In  plowing  in  this  field  right  back  of  the  house,  you  will  plow  up  a  little 
of  that  plastic  occasionally.  It  lies  nearer  the  surface  as  the  land 
subsides.  Now  the  subsidence  is  quite  rapid  here  in  the  Everglades, 
which  is  the  main  reason  why  we  should  have  a  good  plan  of  soil  con- 
servation. It  will  settle  about  a  tenth  of  a  foot  a  year.  Now,  on  a 
sample  2-mile  straight  line  on  our  farm,  we  found  that  in  the  first  18 
months  the  subsidence  amounted  to  5  inches.  After  that  it  would 
be  about  a  tenth  of  a  foot  a  year. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  explain  to  us  what  causes  that  subsidence? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  "  A  certain  percentage  of  it,  the  amount  of  which 
we  haven't  been  able  to  determine,  is  from  compaction,  of  course,  but 
the  major  part  is  oxidation  or  the  slow  burning  of  the  vegetable  matter. 
You  see,  this  peat  soil  is  mostly  vegetable  matter.  In  fact,  it  shows,  I 
understand,  as  low  as  6  percent  ash  and  the  process  of  oxidation, 
especially  when  it  isn't  properly  handled — and  I  mean  by  that,  lack 
of  water  control — may  be  considerable.  Of  course,  this  subsidence  is 
taking  place  whether  the  land  is  under  cultivation  or  not.  Out  in  the 
untilled  areas,  during  the  whiter  months,  which  is  usually  our  dry 
period,  the  soil  cracks  almost  to  the  rock  and  there  will  be  cracks 
16  inches  wide  at  the  top,  extending  down  in  there  5  or  6  feet  and,  of 
course,  when  the  rains  come  those  cracks  fill  up  and  you  can't  see  it. 
It  appears  like  erosion  there,  such  as  you  would  have  from  sun  and 
rainfall  up  in  the  clay  areas,  but  it  is  simply  the  land  drying  up  and 
burning  up  for  lack  of  moisture.  Of  course,  the  thing  that  created 
the  soil  was  the  fact  that  it  was  submerged  the  greater  part  of  the  year 
and  the  sawgrass  has  a  chance  to  develop  and  fall  down  and  create  a 
soil,  but,  when  we  drain  it,  although  the  sawgrass  continues  to  grow, 
it  is  out  of  water  so  much  of  the  time  that  the  actual  humus  is  losing 
instead  of  gaining.  . 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  subsidence  increased  a  good  deal  when  the  land  is 
under  cultivation? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  is  the  general  opinion  that  that  doesn't  make  much 
difference.     In  fact,  here  at  this  house  the  land  had  been  cultivated 


but  the  general  elevation  is  about  the  same  as  the  field,  and  the  water 
table,  of  course,  has  been  about  the  same  in  the  field  as  it  has  on  the 
land  and  this  has  dropped  away  about  8  inches  since  this  house  was 
built.  It  has  settled  about  8  inches  from  the  house  line.  That 
averages  about  an  inch  a  year  because  the  house  has  been  here  about 
8  years.  It  shows  up  very  plainly  because  it  is  a  stucco  house  and 
where  the  stucco  was  flattened  out  at  the  point  where  it  met  the 
ground,  the  ground  has  dropped  away  and  that  flattened  stucco  edge 
is  now  8  inches  in  the  air. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  said  a  little  while  ago,  Mr.  Haney,  that  on  this 
2-mile  line  out  at  your  farm  you  had  noticed  that  in  18  months  the 
subsidence  had  been  5  inches  and  that  the  usual  amount  of  subsidence 
runs  about  one-tenth  of  a  foot  a  year.  What  would  account  for  that 
difference  in  rate  in  that  first  18  months  over  the  usual  rate? 

Mr.  Haney.  There  is  about  12  inches  of  the  top  soil  that's  very 
light  and  porous  and,  of  course,  thickly  interwoven  through  that  is  the 
sawgrass  roots  and  just  in  the  general  course  of  cultivation,  the  plow- 
ing and  disking  that  you  give  it  the  first  year,  will  settle  it  to  that 
extent  and  that's  mostly  compaction.  After  that,  it's  a  combination 
of  both  compaction  and  oxidation. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Are  there  methods  of  cultivation  by  which  this  rate  of 
subsidence  can  be  held  at  a  minimum? 

Mr.  Haney.  I  wouldn't  say  methods  of  cultivation,  but  methods  of 
soil  conservation  such  as  proper  water  control,  whereby,  for  instance, 
you  could  keep  your  land  submerged  during  what  you  might  term  the 
rest  period  which,  in  our  case,  would  be  during  the  summer.  That  can 
be  done  on  the  cultivated  areas  but  the  cultivated  areas  are  such  a 
small  percent  of  the  Everglades  that  you  can  see  the  enormous  waste 
when  these  outside  areas  can't  be  kept  under  water,  or  at  least  at  the 
saturation  point.  Of  course,  they  are  under  water  during  the  sum- 
mer, when  our  land  is  at  rest,  but  when  most  of  the  damage  is  done  and 
most  of  the  waste  takes  place  is  during  the  long  winter  months  which 
is  our  dry  period  and  the  oxidation  alone,  on  the  raw  land,  will  almost 
equal  the  combination  of  oxidation  and  compaction  on  the  cultivated 

Mr.  Tipton.  On  cultivated  lands  does  the  level  of  the  water  table 
make  a  difference  in  the  rate  of  subsidence? 

Mr.  Haney.  I  believe  that  the  consensus  would  be  that  it  would  not, 
due  to  the  fact  that  after  the  first  year  or  two  you  develop  in  the  soil 
considerable  capillary  action  and,  while  your  land  may  not  be  at  the 
saturation  point,  it  will,  at  all  times,  contain  sufficient  moisture  to 
retard  oxidation.  Of  course,  oxidation  isn't  so  rapid  when  your  soil 
is  covered  with  vegetation  other  than  sawgrass.  Sawgrass  isn't  dense 
enough  to  shade  the  lands  sufficiently.  On  the  low-water  tables  on 
the  raw  land  during  our  cold  period  there  will  be  almost  unbelievable 
differences  in  temperatures,  as  our  weather  service  indicates.  There 
will  be  as  much  as — well,  the  greatest  difference  noted  is  about  9°  in 
a  distance  of  about  200  yards. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  wonder  if  you  could  explain  the  reason  for  that. 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  on  the  raw  sawgrass  land,  being  porous  as  it  is 
with  a  coating  of  a  few  inches  of  dead  sawgrass  leaves  on  top,  there  is 


virtually  no  capillary  action  and,  when  our  soil  doesn't  contain  any 
moisture,  it  doesn't  have  the  ability  to  store  up  the  heat  from  the  sun's 
rays  and,  therefore,  doesn't  have  anything  to  give  off  in  the  morning, 
which  is  the  danger  point.  Our  lowest  temperatures  are  just  before 
sunrise  in  the  morning,  after  the  heat  that  has  been  stored  is  exhausted, 
and  your  cultivated  land  may  have  a  sufficiently  high  water  table  to 
carry  it  through  that  period  where  the  lighter  soils  or  fluffy  soils  won't. 


Mr.  Tipton.  What  type  of  plow  do  you  use  for  originally  breaking 
up  sawgrass  lands? 

Mr.  Haney.  Disk  plows. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  said  awhile  ago  that  you  began  breaking  up  new 
land  in  the  winter.  How  many  months  before  that  can  be  planted  to 
the  first  crop  of  potatoes? 

Mr.  Haney.  The  following  September. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  will  those  potatoes  be  ready  to  harvest? 

Mr.  Haney.  In  December. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  it  is  just  about  9  months  before  you  plant  and 
approximately  a  year  before  you  get  a  harvest? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  Of  course,  it  is  better  to  let  it  stand  over  a  year 
because  you  get  a  dense  weed  growth.  They  call  them  careless  weeds 
here,  but  they  are  the  same  as  we  call  pig  weeds  up  in  the  country. 
And  that  growth  helps  to  disintegrate  the  sawgrass  roots  and,  regard- 
less of  the  fact  that  you  may  plant  within  this  9  months'  period,  most 
of  the  farmers  will  plow  the  second  time  about  halfway  between  that 
period,  although,  you  understand,  we  haven't  had  a  great  deal  of 
time  to  develop  this  technique,  and  right  now  I  don't  believe  there 
would  be  many  farmers  that  would  attempt  to  plant  the  first  year. 
They  prefer  to  plow  it  again  the  following  winter  and  probably  get  it 
plowed  at  least  three  times.  You  see,  the  first  time  you  plow  it 
about  16  inches  deep,  which  usually  brings  the  sawgrass  roots  to  the 
surface,  and  then  another  plowing  will  bury  them  deep  enough  that 
they  won't  be  in  the  way  of  your  top  cultivation. 

'Mr.  Tipton.  All  this  plowing  is  by  disk  plows? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  sort  of  power  is  used  for  this  process? 

Mr.  Haney.  The  only  tractor  that  we  can  use  successfully  is  a 
track  tractor,  caterpillar  type,  usually  about  a  30-horse  tractor. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then  the  original  plowing  is  done  with  caterpillars. 
How  about  the  cultivation  of  crops,  what  type  is  used? 

Mr.  Haney.  We  can  use  the  pneumatic-tired  Farmall  type. 

cost  of  land  development 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  give  us  an  estimate,  Mr.  Haney,  of  the  per- 
acre  cost  of  putting  new  sawgrass  land  under  water  control,  and, 
secondly,  of  breaking  up  that  new  sawgrass  land,  preparing  it  for  the 
first  crop? 

Mr.  Haney.  That  depends,  of  course,  upon  the  type  of  pumps 
installed  and  the  quality  of  the  installation.  There  are  numerous 
ways  of  doing  that.  If  you  put  in  with  an  eye  to  the  future,  you  need 
a  good  substantial  concrete  based  pump  with  the  motor,  an  efficient 


type  pump  and  motors  of  sufficient  size  to  make  maximum  use  of  the 
pump,  and  about  twice  the  pumping  capacity  that  you  would  need  in 
normal  times.  If  you  dig  your  ditches  properly  and  construct  your 
dikes  properly  to  insure  yourself  against  breaking  of  the  dike  and 
high  water,  the  cost  would  be  around  $20  an  acre.  That's  for  the 
water  control.  .     . 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  much  additional  for  this  process  of  brmging  the 
land  under  cultivation? 

Mr.  Haney.  Do  you  mean  just  the  first  year's  work? 

Mr.  Tipton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Haney.  That  would  cost  you  another  $10  an  acre.  Then,  of 
course,  before  you  get  it  in  condition  for  such  crops  as  celery  or  any  of 
the  vegetable  crops,  good  farming  practice  would  call  for  leveling, 
that  is,  filling  in  any  of  the  burned  places.  Now,  there  will  be  places 
where,  in  the  past,  fire  has  started  and  you  will  have  4  or  5  inches  of  the 
top  soil  burned  off.  Those  low  places  should  be  filled  in,  in  view  of  the 
fact  that  you  are  using  seepage  irrigation.  You  can't  control  your 
water  in  those  particular  places  and,  if  you  get  your  water  high 
enough  in  the  rest  of  the  farm,  those  places  are  too  wet.  That  would 
cost  you  as  much  as  you  want  to  spend  doing  it,  anything  up  to  $25  an 
acre.  Some  pieces  that  we  have  concentrated  on  for  celery  have  cost 
us  an  additional  $20  an  acre. 

'  Mr.  Tipton.  That's  $20  in  addition  to  the  water  control  plus  the 
first  cultivation? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 


Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  the  smallest  acreage  on  which  it  is  feasible 
to  install  water  control? 

Mr.  Haney.  A  half  section.  That  depends  now  on  whether  or 
not  you  are  out  by  yourself  or  whether  you  have  neighbors  that  are 
taking  the  water  off  of  one  or  more  sides. 

Mr.  Tipton.  The  more  neighbors  you  have  doing  that,  the  less  it 
is  going  to  cost  you? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  The  reason  for  this  is  that  the  rock  on  which 
this  peat  soil  is  resting  is  porous  and,  when  the  water  outside  of  your 
dike  is  at  a  land  level  or  higher,  a  seepage  ditch  inside  of  your  dike 
won't  stop  the  water  from  being  forced  under  your  ditch  and  out  into 
your  farm  for  a  distance  of  300,  or  400,  or  500  feet.  So,  the  larger 
your  tract  of  land  the  smaller  is  the  percentage  of  that  tract  of  land 
that  you  can't  cultivate  in  a  wet  season. 


Mr.  Tipton.  When  a  half  section  field  is  brought  under  water  con- 
trol, how  many  pumps  would  be  necessary  to  control  the  water  table, 
assuming  that  you  had  no  immediate  neighbors  to  help  you  control 
the  water? 

Mr.  Haney.  I  have  two  pumps  with  a  capacity  of  15,000  gallons  a 
minute  each,  making  a  total  of  30,000  gallons  a  minute. 

Mr.  Tipton.  They  handle  how  much  land? 

Mr.  Haney.  A  half  section. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  the  approximate  cost  of  these  pumps 
and  their  installation? 

Mr.  Haney.  Between  $5,000  and  $5,500. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  much  additional  cost  for  the  necessary  ditches? 

Mr.  Haney.  That  depends  upon  what  you  are  going  to  use  it  for 
and  how  many  ditches  you  want  to  put  in.  The  cost  per  acre  that 
I  have  been  giving  calls  for  660  feet  of  ditch,  in  addition  to  the  large 
ditches  around  the  outside.  You  have  to  dig  a  fairly  good  sized 
ditch  around  the  outside  to  get  sufficient  muck  to  build  a  strong  dike. 
The  figures  that  I  have  been  giving  are  for  land  out  in  the  sawgrass 
where  we  had  no  help.  We  had  to  dig  the  large  canal  all  the  way 
around  to  protect  ourselves  on  three  sides.  Now,  if  we  were  in  an 
area  where  we  had  neighbors,  we  could  dig  a  much  smaller  ditch  on 
the  side,  and  depend  more  upon  our  inner  ditches.  Also,  we  have  to 
dig  considerably  more  ditches  than  we  need,  if  it  were  not  for  these 
heavy  rains  that  we  get  occasionally.  Just  this  last  week  we  had 
about  a  7-inch  rainfall  and  right  now  the  water  in  the  canals  is  higher 
than  the  land.  It  might  seem  that  we  dig  more  ditches  than  would 
be  necessary  and  that  is  the  case  for  just  a  normal  rainfall,  but  you 
have  got  to  insure  yourself  against  a  total  loss  by  putting  in  consider- 
ably more  ditches  than  would  be  necessary  normally.  I  haven't 
told  you  in  dollars  and  cents  what  that  addition  would  be,  but  it  will 
be  close  to  $20  an  acre. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Assuming  that  you  had  close  neighbors  to  help  you, 
approximately  what  proportion  of  that  $20  would  you  be  able  to 

Mr.  Haney.  You  could  save  25  percent. 


Mr.  Tipton.  A  little  while  ago  you  said  that  the  sawgrass  land  was 
less  fertile  than  the  elderberry  and  the  elderberry  less  fertile  than  the 
custard  apple.     What  elements  account  for  this  difference  in  fertility? 

Mr.  Haney.  The  known  elements  are  those  that  I  have  mentioned, 
copper,  manganese,  zinc;  and,  of  course,  those  silts  will  be  higher  in 
phosphorus  and  potash  content.  They  also  have  a  greater  ability  to 
retain  those  elements;  it  is  generally  recognized  that  the  leaching  in 
those  muck  soils  is  not  as  great.  Minerals  have  been  added  to  this 
soil  by  overflowing  lake  water,  due  to  the  fact  that  this  water  flows 
from  the  natural  watershed  of  the  central  part  of  the  State  through  the 
Kissimmee  River,  and  contains  not  only  the  minerals  that  we  have 
mentioned  but  all  other  minerals  that  are  in  the  soil.  When  the 
lake  overflowed,  previous  to  the  time  that  the  dikes  were  built,  it 
evaporated  there  and  left  this  residue.  The  mineral  content  of  the 
soil  seems  to  be  in  a  direct  ratio  with  the  distance  of  the  soil  from 
the  lake. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Is  it  necessary  to  add  any  nitrogen  to  any  of  these 
three  types  of  soil? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  wouldn't  be  necessary  if  it  wasn't  for  the  fact  that 
we  are  farming  during  the  cold  winter  months.  The  aeration  brought 
about  by  cultivation  will  start  nitrification  if  you  have  a  high  enough 
temperature,  but  during  the  winter  months,  when  you  are  carrying 


high  water  tables  for  frost  protection  and  your  ground  is  wet  and  you 
have  a  cold  period,  it  is  necessary  to  apply  certain  small  amounts  of 

Miss  Pascal.  Mr.  Haney,  is  that  more  true  for  growing  certain 
crops  than  others? 

Mr.  Haney.  Of  course,  with  the  rapid-growing  crops  you  don't 
take  a  chance.  You  apply  the  nitrogen.  Now  I  refer  to  something 
like  radishes  that  will  produce  in  23  days  or  like  beans  that  you  can 
produce  in  43  days.  You  usually  don't  take  a  chance.  When  you 
fertilize  those  you  put  in  some  nitrogen,  but  any  of  the  other  crops 
that  run  over  a  period  of  3  months,  you  can  usually  apply  it  when 
necessary  and  save  that  expense,  because  you  may  not  have  to  put 
it  on. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then  when  you  do  have  to  apply  nitrogen,  you  put  it 
on  as  a  side  dressing? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  For  celery  do  you  use  any  in  the  original  planting  or 
only  in  case  you  feel  it  is  necessary  as  a  side  dressing? 

Mr.  Haney.  You  are  referring  to  the  nitrogen  of  soda? 

Mr.  Tipton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Haney.  We  use  no  nitrogen  in  the  original. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  fertilizer  formula  do  you  use  for  celery? 

Mr.  Haney.  A  popular  formula  is  an  0-8-24. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  cabbage? 

Mr.  Haney.  About  half  as  much  of  the  same  formula. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  pounds  of  this  0-8-24  do  you  use  to  the 
acre  for  celery? 

Mr.  Haney.  A  ton.  You  can  apply  your  secondaries  in  your  spray 
because  it  is  necessary  to  have  a  regular  spraying  schedule,  usually 
once  a  week.  You  can  apply  your  boron  and  your  zinc  and  your 
copper  that  way.     The  plants  will  take  it  through  the  leaf. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  what  is  the  cost  per  ton  of  this  0-8-24? 

Mr.  Haney.  That  varies  considerably  from  year  to  year.  Of 
course,  now  it  is  rather  high,  approximately  $40  this  year. 


Miss  Pascal.  What  type  of  cultivation  is  necessary  in  the  Glades? 

Mr.  Haney.  Those  methods  vary  with  the  individual.  Of  course, 
in  a  broad  sense,  they  are  more  or  less  the  same.  Weather  conditions 
determine  more  or  less  the  type  of  cultivation  that  you  will  use  and 
there  is  different  cultivation  for  different  crops.  If  it  is  celery,  celery 
takes  a  shallow  cultivation,  as  long  as  our  soil  is  friable  or  loose.  If 
you  have  heavy  rains,  unless  the  soil  is  loosened  up,  your  bacterial 
action  ceases  and  therefore  nitrification  ceases.  You  can't  do  deep 
cultivating  if  your  celery  is  very  large,  because  of  the  roots.  You 
would  disturb  the  roots  too  much,  so  we  use  subsoilers  with  about  an 
8-inch  sweep,  and  we  cultivate  at  a  depth  of  about  10  inches.  They 
do  a  minimum  of  damage  to  the  roots  and  loosen  the  soil  all  of  the  way 
to  the  surface.  Outside  of  this  subsoiling  after  rain,  as  far  as  celery 
is  concerned,  the  only  cultivation  you  do  is  to  keep  the  weeds  down. 

Mr.  Tipton.  All  of  these  processes,  I  suppose,  are  pretty  highly 


Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  your  subsoiling  can  be  done  by  one  man.  You 
will  do  anywhere  from  three  ,to  iive  rows  tat  a  time  with  a  Farmall 


Miss  Pascal.  How  about  disease  and  insect  control?  What 
methods  are  used? 

Mr.  Haney.  You  must  have  a  regular  schedule  for  disease  control. 
The  general  practice  is  once  a  week  whether  it  needs  it  or  not,  because 
you  can't  tell  when  it  needs  it.  You  watch  for  the  insects.  They  are 
seasonal,  of  course.  We  have  a  great  deal  more  insects  and  pests  to 
fight  here  than  we  do  in  the  North,  or  so  it  seems  to  me.  In  the  case 
of  celery,  you  will  start  in  the  seed  beds  with  cutworms.  You  may 
have  aphids  and  red  spiders.  Then  we  have  about  a  half  dozen 
different  kinds  of  cutworms  that  we  have  to  contend  with  in  the  field, 
climbing  varieties,  and  we  have  the  leaf  worms,  two  different  kinds  of 
leaf  worms.  We  have  to  contend  with  these  aphids  quite  regularly 
and  in  the  spring  we  usually  have  thrip  trouble.  Of  course  it's  just 
part  of  the  farming  to  keep  a  thorough  watch  of  those  things  and  take 
care  of  them  as  the  occasion  arises. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  methods  are  used  to  apply  insecticides? 

Mr.  Haney.  I  use  mostly  wet  spray.  There  are  a  number  of  dusts 
that  are  effective  for  most  of  the  vegetables.  Of  course  it  is  regulated 
by  law,  but  we  can  use  arsenicals  up  to  6  weeks  before  harvesting. 
If  we  have  difficulty  after  that  we  use  dusts  which  are  not  poisonous 
to  warm-blooded  animals. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  these  sprays  and  dusts  applied  by  hand  machinery 
or  power  machinery? 

Mr.  Haney.  All  power  machinery.  There  are  times  when  most 
any  of  the  farmers  might  use  the  airplane  dusting.  For  instance, 
when  the  ground  is  too  wet  to  carry  their  dusting  and  spraying 
machines,  and  for  certain  types  of  dusting,  the  airplane  is  consider- 
ably cheaper  and  just  as  effective.  On  large  fields  of  beans,  where 
the  vines  have  become  so  large  that  it  isn't  practical  to  go  in  with  a 
machine,  the  airplanes  are  very  effective. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  give  us  now  an  estimate  of  the  per-acre  cost 
of  disease  and  insect  control? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  will  run  from  $10  to  $18  per  acre — at  least  that's 
my  experience. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  us  an  estimate  of  the  capital  require- 
ments for  entering  the  farming  business  on  the  basis  of  an  acreage 
that  you  consider  to  be  a  minimum  for  profitable  farming  in  the  region? 

Mr.  Haney.  Would  that  be  starting  from  scratch  on  undeveloped 

Mr.  Tipton.  Yes. 

Mr.  Haney.  The  minimum  would  be  about  a  section,  640  acres. 
You  would  need  about  $35,000  worth  of  equipment.  The  land  would 
cost  you  between  $20  and  $30  an  acre.  Roughly,  you  could  figure 
between  $40  and  $50  an  acre  to  get  into  production. 


Mr.  Tipton.  I  wonder  if  you  could  give  us  an  idea  of  the  compari- 
son in  the  costs  of  growing  celery  in  the  lake  region  with  Sarasota, 
Sanford,  and  northern  areas? 


Mr.  Haney.  There  isn't  a  great  deal  of  difference  in  the  cost  of 
production  in  any  one  of  the  three  Florida  areas,  as  the  methods  of 
farming  and  the  methods  of  fertilizing  are  perfected,  although,  of 
course,  the  larger  your  acreage,  the  less  your  per-acre  cost  is  going  to 
be.  Here  in  this  area  it  will  run  around  $175  an  acre.  In  Sarasota 
it  will  run  as  high  as  $225.  In  the  Sanford  area,  which  doesn't  in- 
clude Oveido  because  Oveido  is  an  entirely  different  proposition,  it 
might  run  as  high  as  $250,  due  to  the  fact  that  it  is  necessary  for  them 
to  use  a  great  percentage  of  organic  fertilizers,  and  your  plant  foods, 
when  purchased  as  organics,  always  cost  more  per  unit  than  the 
mineral  fertilizers. 

Miss  Pascal.  Does  the  elaborate  irrigation  system  they  have  up 
there  increase  the  cost  of  production  to  a  great  extent? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  it  does;  for  the  simple  reason  that  they  are  farm- 
ing on  that  coarse  sand  which  leaches  very  readily  and  they  won't 
have  the  residue  of  then  previous  fertilizing  that  we  will  have.  You 
see,  their  tiles  are  only  about  12  inches  under  the  surface.  They  rest 
on  a  hardpan  and  that  peculiar  formation  is  what  made  Sanford  a 
celery-growing  section,  because  it  will  hold  their  artesian  water.  Were 
it  not  for  that  hardpan  they  just  couldn't  grow  celery  and  the  sand  is 
so  coarse  that  their  fertilizer  leaches  out  readily  during  rainy  times. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  about  the  Oveido  region? 

Mr.  Haney.  Oveido  is  comparable  to  Sarasota.  The  Oveido  land 
is  probably  the  most  fertile  of  the  three  sections. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  gave  us  per-acre  estimates  for  costs  of  growing  in 
those  regions.     How  do  yields  compare  in  the  regions? 

Mr.  Haney.  I  would  say  that  the  average  yield  would  be  greater 
in  the  Oveido  section  than  any  other,  next  would  come  Sarasota,  then 
Belle  Glade,  and  Sanford  would  come  last,  although  certain  farmers 
in  Sanford  will  equal  the  yield  of  any  of  the  other  sections. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  give  us  an  estimate  of  the  per-acre  yields  in 
any  or  all  of  the  sections? 

Mr.  Haney.  I  believe  that  the  average  for  the  State  is  around  350 
crates  to  the  acre.  We  have  averaged  600  crates  to  the  acre  in  Sara- 
sota, which  is  unusual,  but  between  450  and  500  crates  to  the  acre 
would  be  a  fair  estimate  for  Sarasota.  Oveido  might  be  as  much  as 
15  or  20  percent  higher,  while  Sanford  will  fail  to  equal  the  State 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  how  about  Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  Haney.  Belle  Glade  will  come  right  in  between  Sarasota  and 

Mr.  Tipton.  We  have  been  discussing  the  per-acre  costs  and  per- 
acre  yields  of  the  various  sections  in  Florida.  Now,  can  you  give  us 
some  indication  of  how  costs  and  yields  in  Florida  would  compare  with 
northern  producing  areas  such  as  New  York  and  Michigan? 

Mr.  Haney.  Due  to  the  methods  of  planting  in  Michigan  and  New 
York,  it  is  hard  to  get  a  comparison,  on  an  acre  basis,  with  this  region. 
In  Florida  we  will  plant  from  45,000  to  65,000  plants  to  the  acre.  In 
Michigan  and  New  York  they  will  plant  around  25,000  to  30,000.  In 
the  fall  of  the  year,  in  particular,  they  use  dirt  for  bleaching,  and  they 
must  have  their  rows  far  enough  apart  so  they  can  get  sufficient  dirt 
for  that  purpose.  Down  here,  because  of  higher  temperatures  and 
the  fungus  diseases,  we  can't  use  dirt  for  that  purpose.     W^e  must  use 


paper.  Therefore,  we  put  our  rows  closer  together  and  get  that  addi- 
tional number  of  plants  per  acre,  so  it  is  hard  to  make  a  comparison, 
although,  basing  it  on  the  number  of  plants  per  acre,  there  is  very- 
little  difference  in  the  yield. 

Miss  Pascal.  Can  celery  be  produced  more  cheaply  in  Florida  than 
in  New  York  and  Michigan? 

Mr.  Haney.  Due  to  the  fact  that  the  soils  of  both  Michigan  and 
New  York  are  considerably  more  fertile  than  those  in  Florida,  they 
can  grow  it  cheaper  than  we  can. 

Mr.  Tipton.  From  what  you  have  told  us  so  far,  it  would  appear 
that  Everglades  farming  is,  to  a  considerable  extent,  a  large-scale 

Mr.  Haney.  It  is  a  large-scale  proposition  and  a  much  more  profit- 
able proposition  than  the  northern  celery  growing. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  is  that  also  true  of  other  crops  besides  celery? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 


Miss  Pascal.  Is  there  any  tendency  in  the  Everglades  region  for 
the  size  of  operation  to  increase? 

Mr.  Haney.  No;  I  wouldn't  say  there  was  a  tendency  for  it  to 
increase.  Conditions  make  it  imperative  that  you  have  a  consider- 
ably larger  acreage  in  order  to  farm  economically,  due  more  or  less 
to  lack  of  diversification.  You  see,  we  are  working  under  handicaps 
here  that  the  Michigan  farmers,  for  instance,  don't  have.  They  range 
all  the  way  from  small  fruits  to  vegetables,  cattle,  and  what  have  you. 
We  must  confine  our  efforts  to  green  vegetables.  Of  course,  the  cry- 
ing need  of  the  Everglades  is  diversification  and  we  are  heading 
toward  that.  There  are  possibilities  in  grass-fattened  cattle.  We 
have  several  new  crops  being  tried  out,  for  instance,  ramie.  We  have 
2,500  acres  of  ramie  and  we  hope,  and  have  every  reason  to  believe, 
that  this  will  become  a  profitable  crop.  There  has  been  a  recent 
introduction  by  the  United  States  Sugar  Corporation  of  sweetpotatoes 
for  starch  and  there  are  possibilities  in  the  same  sweetpotato  for  cattle 
feed.  There  are  a  number  of  the  farmers  going  to  try  it  out  next  year. 
In  fact,  just  in  the  last  few  weeks  we  have  organized,  in  the  county, 
a  cattlemen's  association  with  a  dozen  or  more  members,  all  of  whom 
expect  to  have  a  certain  number  of  feeders  for  next  year.  You  see, 
we  have  grass  available  at  a  time  when  100  to  150  miles  up  the  State 
their  grass  is  out.  That's  in  the  winter  months,  and  we  feel  that  it 
is  going  to  be  a  source  of  profit  and  a  method  of  diversification. 

Our  whole  trouble,  of  course,  is  in  getting  quality  beef  and,  in  order 
to  do  it  economically,  we  must  find  something  that  will  take  the 
place  of  the  grains  that  we  might  have  to  ship  in  from  the  North. 
There  has  been  considerable  experimenting  along  that  line  with 
sorghum,  Egyptian  wheat,  and  now  comes  this  experiment  with  sweet- 
potatoes — something  that  the  farmer  can  do  himself.  He  can  grow 
the  potatoes  and,  with  a  rather  inexpensive  home-made  shredder,  he 
can  shred  those  potatoes  and  dry  them  in  the  sun.  They  can  be  used 
as  a  concentrate  and,  with  a  very  small  addition  of  something  like 
cottonseed  meal,  experiments  have  shown  that  we  have  something  that 
is  the  equivalent  of  corn.  We  are  just  beginning  this  cattle  fattening 
but  we  hope  that  we  are  going  to  be  able  to  do  something  with  it. 


Then,  of  course,  our  fibrous  crops,  such  as  ramie  that  we  mentioned, 
the  development  of  that  has  been  more  or  less  hastened  by  the  war, 
as  most  of  it  came  from  China  in  the  form  of  tung  grass,  and  we  under- 
stand that  most  of  the  big  textile  companies  are  using  it  in  most  of 
their  fabrics.  Recently  there  has  been  developed  machinery  thatjwill 
harvest  it  and  decorticate  it,  and  we  have  high  hopes  that  it  is  going 
to  be  quite  an  industry  in  this  section.  On  the  marginal  lands  there 
are  possibilities  of  peanuts,  and  those  people  that  have  been  doing 
the  experimenting  with  materials  from  which  we  can  create  plastics 
have  hopes  of  developing  something  in  the  near  future.  In  fact,  to 
my  mind,  there  is  no  doubt  but  what  we  will  get  into  something  of 
that  kind  that  requires  large  acreages. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  this  cattle-fattening  business  being  developed  on 
new  land  or  land  that  has  already  been  under  cultivation? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  lends  itself  very  readily  to  a  rotation  program.  The 
grass  does  better  upon  land  on  which  you  have  grown  vegetables.  Of 
course,  in  order  to  grow  grass  on  the  new-sown  grassland,  to  grow  it 
successfully,  it  is  necessary  to  do  a  certain  amount  of  fertilizing, 
especially  the  application  of  secondaries.  We  were  successful  in 
developing  a  small  pasture  with  an  application  of  just  copper — which, 
by  the  way,  we  flew  on.  We  got  monohydrated  copper  and  flew  it  on 
at  the  rate  of  20  pounds  per  acre,  which  was  a  sufficient  quantity  to 
develop  grass.  While  it  wasn't  as  satisfactory  as  the  vegetable  land 
for  that  purpose,  it  did  make  quite  a  creditable  pasture.  In  using  a 
certain  piece  of  land  continuously  for  vegetables  you  build  up  a  popu- 
lation of  insects  and  also  increase  the  fungus  diseases,  and  a  rotation 
with  grass  will  eliminate  both  of  those. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  there  any  tendency  in  the  region  for  diversification 
in  vegetable  crops? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  is  difficult  to  get  any  further  diversification  in  vege- 
table crops  unless  someone  should  invent  a  new  vegetable.  We  can 
grow  about  everything  in  the  catalog  that  is  profitable  in  our  farming 
season.  Of  course,  the  main  thing  is  beans,  string  beans.  Next  comes 
cabbage.  Next  in  line  would  probably  be  celery  and  its  relatives,  or 
the  other  leaf  crops  such  as  the  escarole  and  romaine.  We  also  grow 
eggplant;  fall  and  spring  tomatoes.  Our  potatoes,  of  course,  are  a 
green  vegetable.  They  never  mature  fully.  So  we  grow  most  any- 
thing that  will  show  a  profit. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Has  there  been  any  tendency  for  the  percentage  of 
the  acreage  in  the  region  devoted  to  beans  to  decline? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  and  while  the  numbers  of  acres  of  beans  has 
probably  increased,  the  percentage  has  decreased. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So,  in  that  sense,  the  area  is  becoming  more  diversified? 

Mr.  Haney.  Oh,  yes. 


Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  raise  any  sugarcane? 

Mr.  Haney.  I  have  30  acres  of  seed  cane  planted. 

Miss  Pascal.  For  the  future  do  you  anticipate  making  any  other 
changes  in  your  planting  program,  in  addition  to  this  cattle-fattening 

Mr.  Haney.  Well,  I  am  going  to  try  an  experiment  with  sweet- 
potatoes  on  cattle.  We  formed  a  cane-growers'  cooperative  associa- 
tion just  recently,  and  we  hope  to  be  able  to  grow  some  sugarcane. 


We  will  have  sufficient  quantity  of  seed  to  put  out  probably  2,000 
acres  for  the  1943-44  harvest,  which  will  supply  a  small  mill,  and  we 
have  hopes  of  getting  a  cane  mill  in  our  immediate  vicinity  here. 
This  seed  cane  that  I  speak  of  will  increase  at  the  ratio  of  about  15 
to  1.  Out  of  1  acre  of  seed  cane  we  will  produce  enough  seed  to  plant 
15  acres.  It  would  be  rather  expensive  to  buy  the  seed  cane,  so  we 
are  growing  it  ourselves. 

Miss  Pascal.  Mr.  Haney,  how  many  acres  of  cane  would  be  neces- 
sary to  plant  to  provide  sufficient  cane  to  support  a  mill? 

Mr.  Haney.  That,  of  course,  depends  entirely  upon  the  size  of 
your  mill.  You  have  mills  that  will  grind  500  tons  a  day,  1,500,  all 
the  way  up  to  7,000  tons  a  day.  The  Sugar  Corporation,  I  under- 
stand, will  grind  about  7,000  tons  a  day.  What  we  have  in  mind  is 
something  of  about  1,500  tons  a  day  and  that  will  take  about  5,000 
acres,  because  in  our  locality  the  harvesting  period  will  be  consider- 
ably shorter  than  it  will  be  in  some  other  sections.  Due  to  our  lack 
of  water  control,  which  also  means  frost  control,  we  have  to  confine 
our  efforts,  as  far  as  cane  is  concerned,  to  that  period  of  the  year 
when  it  will  be  the  least  apt  to  get  frozen,  which  only  gives  us  a 
maximum  of  about  120  days  to  harvest. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  low  a  temperature  will  sugarcane  stand? 

Mr.  Haney.  Well,  a  slight  frost  such  as  30°  or  29°  doesn't  seem  to 
affect  it,  provided  the  temperature  isn't  that  low  for  any  length  of 
time.  Now,  in  most  of  our  frosts  it  is  down  to  freezing  only  about 
30  minutes.  If  the  temperature  drops  and  holds  down  for  3  or  4  hours 
we  get  considerable  damage,  but  cane  can  be  harvested,  after  it  is 
frozen,  for  a  period  of  something  like  between  20  and  30  days  even 
though  it  has  been  severely  frozen,  so  badly  frozen  that  the  stalks 
will  eventually  die.  It  kills  the  buds  on  it.  It  can  be  harvested 
profitably  for  a  certain  number  of  days  after  the  frost. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  celery,  Mr.  Haney?  How  low  a  tempera- 
ture will  celery  stand? 

Mr.  Haney.  Celery  is  just  as  susceptible  to  frost  as  anything  else, 
except  that  the  nature  of  the  plant  makes  it  possible  to  grow  it  out 
again  after  what  3^ou  have  above  the  surface  is  frozen.  Now,  you  can 
go  down  to  20°  above,  which  freezes  the  ground  quite  firmly,  especially 
if  it  holds  that  way  for  2  or  8  hours,  and  you  can  grow  your  celery  out 
again,  the  same  stalk,  because  it  comes  out  from  the  heart,  and  you 
can  produce  a  very  creditable  crop  of  celery  in  3  weeks  after  a  freeze  of 
that  kind  and  grow  an  entirely  new  stalk. 

Miss  Pascal.  In  going  into  cane  production,  do  you  anticipate 
curtailing  vegetable  production? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  the  cane  production  and  cattle  feeding,  and  any 
of  these  things  we  can  do  successfully,  will  decrease  the  percentage  of 
vegetables,  maybe  not  the  tonnage  that  comes  out  of  the  Glades  but 
the  percentage. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  that,  do  you  think,  generally  true  of  the  other 
growers  who  are  going  in  for  more  cane? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  that  would  be  true.  Most  any  of  the  growers 
are  interested  in  something  that  appears  substantial.  Now,  this 
vegetable  game  of  ours  down  here  is  a  very  uncertain,  erratic  industry. 
It  takes  a  number  of  vegetables — each  farmer  must  grow  a  variety  of 
vegetables — and  he  must  keep  continuously  at  it  for  about  6  months 
out  of  the  year.     You  have  got  to  hit  all  markets.     It  gets  rather 


monotonous  and  most  any  of  the  farmers  would  welcome  anything 
that  would  lessen  some  of  the  strain  of  the  fight. 


Miss  Pascal.  You  said  that  vegetable  producers  have  to  grow  a 
number  of  different  vegetables.  Do  weather  conditions  make  this 
advisable  as  well  as  the  variable  markets? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  The  market  is  one  of  the  prime  factors,  but  the 
danger  of  a  disaster  such  as  a  flood  or  a  frost  makes  it  quite  imperative 
that  a  person  diversify.  Now,  there  are  certain  of  the  vegetables  that 
you  can  only  grow  seasonally.  What  I  mean  by  that  is,  you  can  grow 
two  crops  of  beans,  you  can  grow  a  fall  and  spring  crop  of  beans.  With 
a  vegetable  like  celery  you  can  have  16  weeks  of  harvest,  beginning 
January  1.  In  order  to  do  that  you  must  have  16  weeks  of  planting, 
beginning  the  last  week  in  September.  Now,  that  is  quite  a  con- 
tinuous operation,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  you  will  start  your  seedbeds 
in  July,  and  a  program  of  that  kind  would  carry  you  up  to  the  first  week 
in  May,  so  that  that's  something  that  keeps  you  occupied  from  the 
middle  of  July  until  the  middle  of  May  the  following  year.  Now,  in 
the  meantime,  it  is  necessary  to  have  seasonal  vegetables,  such  as  fall 
potatoes  and  winter  cabbage  and  spring  leaf  crops,  and  then  your  fall 
and  spring  beans,  of  which  we  have  two  or  three  varieties,  in  addition 
to  the  lima  beans. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  double-crop  celery  land  at  all? 

Mr.  Haney.  We  don't  make  a  practice  of  double-cropping  celery. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  it  be  done? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  quite  successfully. 

Mr.  Tipton.  With  regard  to  the  future  development  of  the  Glades, 
what  part  do  you  think  vegetable  production  will  play  in  the  total 
Everglades  production? 

Mr.  Haney.  A  very  important  part,  the  most  important  part.  It 
so  happens  to  be  a  section  that  can  produce  green  vegetables  at  a  time 
when  competition  is  at  a  minimum.  In  the  spring  of  the  year,  we 
have  the  celery  market  to  ourselves.  Florida  has  the  market  from 
about  the  1st  of  March  until  some  time  in  May,  and  there  are  other 
parts  of  the  season  when  our  only  competition  is  the  Rio  Grande 
Valley.  Therefore,  there  is  nothing  that  would  take  the  .place  of  the 
vegetables  but,  as  these  other  crops  that  I  am  talking  about  come  in, 
cattle  feeding,  for  instance,  you  could  specialize  on  that  to  the  elimina- 
tion of  virtually  everything  else  but  cattle  feeding,  and  there  will 
undoubtedly  be  people  that  will  turn  to  that  if  it  becomes  a  successful 
venture  and  will  make  a  business  of  grass-fattening  cattle.  Then,  if 
the  fiber  crops  come  in,  or  any  of  the  crops  that  can  be  utilized  for 
plastics,  that  will  probably  become  a  specialty  crop  to  a  certain  extent. 
You  understand,  all  of  those  things  will  lend  themselves  to  rotation. 
Agriculturally,  we  are  just  beginning  to  get  on  a  firm  foundation — and 
what  we  need  and  need  badly  is  a  system  of  rotation  and  these  crops 
that  I  am  telling  you  about  will  provide  that  rotation. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  think  that  there  will  be  a  tendency  for  certain 
people  to  go  into  these  specialty  crops  as  their  only  enterprise  and  also 
for  the  vegetable  farmers,  perhaps,  to  go  into  these  crops  on  the  side 
to  stabilize  their  operations? 


Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  just  as  it  is  now.  Now  we  have  farmers  whose 
main  crop  is  celery.  That's  my  case.  Incidentally,  I  will  grow  pota- 
toes and  cabbage.  I  don't  grow  beans  because  I  haven't  the  proper 
type  of  land  for  beans.  Other  farmers  specialize  in  beans.  In- 
cidentally, they  will  grow  some  celery  and  some  cabbage  and  some 
potatoes.  We  have  a  few  that  specialize  in  eggplant  and  peppers 
because  they  have  land  in  frost-protected  areas  that  lends  itself  very 
nicely  to  the  production  of  those  crops.  Incidentally,  they  will  branch 
off  in  some  of  these  other  vegetables. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  that  there  will  be  a  great  increase  in 
vegetable  acreage  down  here  or  do  you  think  that  after  a  while  the 
market  for  these  winter  vegetables  will  be  fully  supplied  so  that  the 
only  room  for  expansion  will  be  in  these  newer  types  of  crops? 


Mr.  Haney.  There  is  always  the  possibility  of  the  development  of 
these  quick-freeze  methods  and  that  would  cut  into  our  business 
directly.  Now,  whether  or  not  these  dehydrated  vegetables  will 
ever  become  popular,  or  popular  enough  to  be  competitive,  is  prob- 
lematical. I  doubt  that  they  will,  although  I  have  had  an  oppor- 
tunity just  recently  of  tasting  some  very  fine-tasting  material  that 
they  told  me  was  dehydrated  bananas,  and  another  material  that  was 
ground  up  dehydrated  peas.  That  was  up  in  Washington,  by  the  way. 
I  was  up  there  a  few  weeks  ago.  Now,  whether  those  things  will  be- 
come popular  or  whether  they  are  just  a  defense  measure,  I  don't 
know,  but  as  for  the  consumption  of  green  vegetables  as  such,  it  seems 
to  be  increasing  each  year.  The  land  is  being  developed  very  rapidly 
around  here — between  25,000  and  30,000  acres  has  been  sold  in  the 
last  18  months,  not  to  speculators  but  to  prospective  farmers. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  mentioned  quick  freezing.  Do  you  think  that 
there  is  any  possibility  of  the  development  of  the  quick-freezing 
industry  down  here? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  I  think  so.  I  should  think,  though,  that  the 
other  parts  of  the  country  where  they  can  grow  those  vegetables 
cheaper  would  be  the  logical  place  to  do  it.  Of  course,  there  is  always 
the  problem  of  transportation  and  we  should  avail  ourselves  of  any 
opportunity  to  take  care  of  any  surplus  that  we  might  have  that 
could  be  utilized  in  that  manner,  but  we  like  to  have  and  should 
have  some  northern  vegetables  just  from  a  health  standpoint. 

Mr.  Tipton.  We  understand  that  a  cannery  to  pack  beans  has  been 
established  here  just  this  year.  Would  you  say  that  there  is  any 
permanent  future  for  a  local  canning  industry? 

Mr.  Haney.  Definitely  so.  There  is.  I  don't  believe  that  it  would 
be  an  exaggeration  to  say  that  there  are  very  few  years  that  50  percent 
of  the  string  beans  that  are  grown  are  harvested  due  to  the  lack 
of  a  market.  Now,  of  course,  that  hasn't  been  the  case  this  year. 
Beans  at  the  present  time  are  selling  from  about  $1.50  to  $3.50  a 
30-pound  hamper,  which  gives  a  wonderful  profit,  but  the  time  comes 
when  we  won't  have  such  a  market — that's  the  case  most  every  year. 

Miss  Pascal.  I  understand  that  this  cannery  has  not  been  able  to 
obtain  beans  this  season  because  the  price  has  been  so  high? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  an  unfortunate  frost  came  along  and  they  lost 
a  lot  of  acres  of  contract  beans,  and  then  unfortunately  we  had  this 


unseasonal  flood  of  a  week  or  so  ago.     It  is  estimated  to  have  ruined 
about  50  percent  of  the  beans. 

Miss  Pascal.  In  your  opinion,  is  it  possible  that  other  crops  may 
be  used  for  canning  down  here  in  the  future? 

Mr.  Haney.  There  has  been  considerable  talk  about  kraut  factories. 
Now,  this  year  on  our  farm  we  had  at  least  80  acres  of  cabbage  that 
would  easily  have  averaged  between  10  and  12  tons  per  acre.  But  the 
Rio  Grande  Valley  put  up  large  quantities  of  kraut  and  there  is  no 
reason  why  we  couldn't  do  it  here. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  tomatoes? 

Mr.  Haney.  Our  tomatoes  are  about  the  most  hazardous  crop  that 
we  grow. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Because  of  the  weather? 

Mr.  Haney.  They  are  so  susceptible  to  rain,  floods,  and  on  this 
particular  type  of  land  we  don't  get  the  quality  that  we  should  have 
for  canning  purposes.  We  don't  get  the  flavor  that  we  should  have. 
Nevertheless,  there  would  be  quantities  of  them  available  for  that 
purpose.  You  see  we  have  very  few  vine-ripened  tomatoes.  Our 
method  is  to  pick  them  green.  Unfortunately,  a  large  percentage 
of  them  are  picked  too  green  and  Everglades  tomatoes,  as  a  result, 
do  not  enjoy  a  very  good  reputation.  There  are  other  sections  of 
Florida  on  the  higher  land  that  grow  much  better  quality  tomatoes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  there  any  other  vegetables  that  you  think  of 
that  could  be  introduced  into  a  canning  program? 

Mr.  Haney.  We  can  grow  quantities  of  creditable  carrots.  The 
possibilities  of  small  potatoes  for  canning  have  been  discussed.  Of 
course,  lima  beans.  And  there  are  possibilities  in  English  peas.  The 
greatest  trouble  is  a  constant  supply.  The  market  is  very  erratic  on 
those  things.  The  farmers  hestitate  to  contract  at  a  low  price  when 
there  are  always  the  possibilities  of  getting  -10  times  as  much  as  a 
canning  factory  could  afford  to  pay. 

Miss  Pascal.  Then  you  would  say  that,  while  there  is  a  future  for 
canning,  it  would  be  largely  on  a  basis  of  canning  the  surplus  during 
periods  when  the  market  is  low? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  There  are  certain  things  to  overcome  and,  at 
the  present  time,  that  is,  the  state  of  mind  of  the  farmer.  He  would 
look  upon  it  more  or  less  as  a  salvage  proposition,  which  I  think  could 
be  worked  out  successfully  in  the  case  of  kraut  but  possibly  not  so 
successfully  in  the  case  of  other  vegetables. 

Miss  Pascal.  Why  is  that? 

Mr.  Haney.  Because  there  will  be  a  greater  period  of  time  when 
cabbage  will  be  cheap  than  there  will  be  that  peas  and  beans  will  be 
cheap.  . 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  because  there  are  competing  areas  producing 
during  a  greater  share  of  the  cabbage  season? 

MrV  Haney.  That's  right,  the  Rio  Grande  Valley.  That  was  our 
competition  this  year.  When  we  both  have  a  good  crop  of  cabbage, 
it  isn't  very  high. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  think  it  is  possible,  Mr.  Haney,  if  vegetable, 
acreage  expands  markedly  down  here,  Miat  would  have  a  tendency  to 
keep  fresh  vegetable  prices  permanently  down  to  a  point  where  vege- 
tables could  profitably  be  canned? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  I  think  there  is  a  possibility  of  that  occurring 
some  years.     Now,  it  would  seem  that  it  is  rather  silly  for  a  group 

60306— 42— pt.  33 13 


of  farmers  down  here  to  grow,  year  after  year,  crops  of  which  they  can 
only  harvest  a  certain  percentage  due  to  market  conditions,  but  you 
never  know  at  what  time  of  the  season  some  other  section  is  going  to 
have  a  disaster  and  the  prices  will  go  sky  high  and,  in  a  period  of  3 
weeks,  you  will  not  only  make  up  all  of  your  losses  for  the  last  3 
months,  but  make  a  profit.  That's  the  case  in  celery.  I  have  experi- 
enced that  with  cabbage  and  that  will  also  be  the  case  with  beans, 
even  locally.  When  we  are  competing,  the  east  coast  may  lose  their 
bean  crop  and  our  price  will  immediately  double.  California  will 
have  difficulty  with  their  celery  and  our  price  will  immediately  go  up 
anywhere  from  25  percent  to  50  percent.  This  year  the  North  and 
South  Carolinas,  as  well  as  north  Florida  and  the  Rio  Grande  were  in 
direct  competition  with  us  in  our  cabbage. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  tell  us  somethmg  about  the  packmg  and 
marketing  of  south  Florida  produce? 

Mr.  Haney.  There  have  been  radical  changes  in  the  last  6  years  in 
packaging  of  produce  from  this  section.  Along  with  the  diversifica- 
tion of  products  came  the  improvement  in  packaging.  There  was  a 
time  when  the  beans  were  all  just  packed  in  the  field  and  shipped  to 
market  just  as  they  were  picked  by  the  field  hands.  As  long  as  there 
wasn't  a  surplus,  that  method  worked  all  right,  because  the  processing, 
even  of  the  beans,  was  done  on  the  other  end.  That  is,  sorting,  taking 
out  the  refuse  that  the  field  hands  would  leave  in  them,  and  getting 
them  ready  for  market — that  took  place  at  the  terminal  markets. 
Then  some  local  man  conceived  the  idea  of  working  that  out  in  a 
packing  house,  putting  up  grading  belts  and  perfecting  the  package 
here.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  that  was  about  the  first  influx  of  white 
migratory  labor,  because  there  was  a  shortage  of  colored.labor  anyway. 
He  conceived  the  idea  of  utilizing  some  of  the  local  white  folks  and 
that,  apparently,  was  the  beginning  of  the  custom  of  white  folks  work- 
ing in  the  packing  houses  and  processing  plants  while  the  colored 
worked  in  the  field. 

Miss  Pascal.  When  did  this  change  take  place? 

Mr.  Haney.  That  was  about  8  years  ago.  It  might  have  been  9 
years  ago. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  '33? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  Then,  as  other  commodities  came  on,  the  same 
method  of  perfecting  the  package  was  carried  out.  Of  course,  another 
one  of  the  important  crops  is  celery  and,  while  the  perfecting  of  the 
package  took  place  at  a  little  earlier  period  than  it  did  in  beans,  it 
was  just  about  as  radical  a  change,  because  celery  used  to  be  packed 
in  the  field  the  same  way  and  shipped  to  the  market,  at  which  place  it 
was  processed  at  considerably  more  expense.  There  came  a  time  when 
labor  was  considerably  more  plentiful  in  the  Glades  than  it  was  there 
at  the  terminal  markets  and  you  could  do  the  packing  a  whole  lot 
•cheaper  here.  Packing  was  done  in  a  sort  of  assembly-line  process, 
where  the  stuff  would  pass  over  a  chain  and  the  various  grades  would 
be  taken  out  and  be  classified  as  to  quality  and  all  of  those  things.  It 
could  be  done  very  cheaply.  Then  there  was  further  improvements 
in  the  type  of  celery  package.  Where,  in  the  old  package,  the  tops 
were  left  on,  which  caused  deterioration  through  evaporation  of  the 


product,  those  tops  were  now  cut  off  in  the  field  immediately  after 
the  celery  was  cut,  which  saved  a  lot  of  shrinkage  from  the  field  to  the 
plant.  It  was  packed  in  a  short  crate  and  immediately  precooled. 
This  not  only  improved  the  quality  of  the  product,  but  eliminated 
about  16  or  20  percent  of  the  weight  of  the  crate,  where  formerly  this 
extra  weight  was  transported  to  the  terminal  markets,  a  distance  of 
anywhere  from  500  to  1,500  miles,  at  which  place  it  had  to  be  disposed 
of.  This  reduction  in  bulk  further  saved  on  the  cost  of  transportation. 
There  are  still  several  vegetables  being  grown  here  on  which  the 
packaging  could  be  considerably  improved. 
Miss  Pascal.  What  crops  are  those? 


Mr.  Haney.  Cabbage  is  one  of  them.  We  are  using  a  definitely 
ridiculous  package  to  ship  cabbage  in,  also  green  peppers  and  tomatoes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  is  cabbage  packed? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  is  a  hamper  with  what  is  termed  a  "bulge"  pack. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That's  the  round,  tall  hamper? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  and  there  is  probably  10  percent  anyway  of  the 
so-called  contents  of  it  exposed  on  top  of  the  package  and  this  is 
ruined  before  it  gets  to  market.  It  has  just  become  a  custom  for  the 
people  on  the  other  end  to  demand  it  and  the  tendency  of  the  com- 
mission men  at  the  terminal  markets  is  to  follow  the  line  of  least 
resistance.  Their  time  for  selling  an  article  is  very  limited  and  they 
are  not  much  in  (a,vor  of  spending  time  on  a  new  package,  regardless 
of  how  efficient  the  thing  might  be,  or  how  economical  it  might  be. 
Someone  has  got  to  take  it  in  hand  and  prove  its  value  and  create 
a  demand  for  it  before  they  are  interested  in  handling  it.  It  is  the 
same  case  with  peppers.  That's  a  pack.  There  are  probably  two 
layers  of  peppers  extending  above  the  package.  The  same  thing  is 
true  of  tomato  lugs.  There  are  a  couple  of  rows  of  tomatoes  extending 
above  the  top  of  the  lug,  with  pasteboard  sides  to  add  to  the  beauty 
of  the  thing,  but  it  isn't  much  protection  to  the  vegetable.  At  the 
time  of  beginning  these  new  methods  of  packing,  the  farmer  himself 
would  derive  some  benefit,  but  eventually,  as  it  became  common 
practice,  competition  was  keen  and  the  savings,  instead  of  revertmg 
back  to  the  farmer,  were  picked  up  by  the  handlers  on  the  other  end. 
So  that  it  is  a  steady  job  for  the  packer,  whether  he  be  a  farmer  packer 
or  a  packer  that  does  nothing  but  pack,  to  devise  new  methods  of 
economy  in  packing  in  the  hope  of  getting  the  bulge  on  his  competitors 
and,  as  soon  as  it  becomes  common  practice,  it  is  the  same  old  story. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  these  bad  methods  of  packing  particularly 
noticeable  down  here  or  do  they  use  that  bulge  pack  for  cabbage  all 
over  the  country?  I  mean,  could  better  methods,  now  used  in  other 
parts  of  the  country,  be  used  down  here  or  is  it  a  matter  of  devising 
a  new  package  entirely? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  is  a  matter  of  changing  the  custom  on  the  receiving 
end.  Green  cabbage  from  Florida  just  doesn't  seem  to  be  green 
cabbage  unless  they  are  in  a  hamper.  They  will  receive  green  cabbage 
from  Texas — Texas  has  discarded  the  hamper.  They  will  receive 
them,  just  the  last  few  years,  from  the  Carolinas  in  2-  and  3-bushel 
crates,  but  Florida  cabbage,  in  order  to  be  recognized  as  green  cab- 
bage, must  be  shipped  in  a  hamper. 



Mr.  Tipton.  You  had  considerable  to  do  with  the  improvement  in 
the  celery  package,  didn't  you,  Mr.  Haney? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  I  had  devised  a  method  of  packaging  it  but  I 
hadn't  perfected  a  cover  for  the  box  until  the  Rock  fastener  people 
of  Rockawa}7,  N.  J.,  headed  by  Colonel  Babcock,  sent  a  man  into  this 
section  with  their  wire  binding  and  Rock  fastener.  That  fastener 
and  the  crate  that  I  devised  were  a  natural  combination.  So  they 
started  manufacturing  the  celery  crate  with  their  Rock  fastener  on 
it.  The  head  of  their  research  department  and  myself  traveled 
through  the  North — in  fact  we  visited  every  market  east  of  the 
Mississippi  one  summer — and  really  sold  the  idea  of  the  package,  but 
it  took  our  firm  a  year  to  get  it  on  the  market.  Of  course,  we  had 
made  contacts  where  they  agreed  to  handle  it  the  first  year — which 
they  did.  The  next  year,  another  company  started  shipping  with  it 
and  now  probably  90  percent  of  all  of  the  celery  going  out  of  Florida 
is  in  that  package. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  is  what  is  called  the  Howard  crate? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  The  Howard  crate  is  named  after  you,  we  understand? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  a  patent  on  that  crate? 

Mr.  Haney.  No;  the  benefit  that  we  derive  from  it  was  considerable 
just  as  an  individual  shipper,  and  the  benefit  that  all  the  farmers 
derive  from  it  is  considerable. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  say  about  90  percent  of  the  celery  is  shipped  in 
that  crate? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  that  true  in  other  areas,  as  well  as  in  Florida? 

Mr.  Haney.  The  crate  doesn't  have  the  advantages  for  those 
celery-growing  sections  near  the  market  that  it  does  for  Florida. 
The  bulk  of  our  stuff  goes  to  the  northern  market  and  the  main  ad- 
vantage of  the  crate  is  that  it  is  a  reverse  pack,  that  is,  tops  put  to 
bottoms  and  bottoms  to  tops.  You  can  get  the  same  amount,  and 
more,  celery  in  a  crate  with  less  weight  and  it  is  more  compact  and 
easier  handled  and  lends  itself  to  long-distance  shipping.  Therefore, 
it  isn't,  in  general,  used  in  the  North  where  they  are  close  to  the 
markets  and  carry  a  great  deal  of  it  by  truck. 


Mr.  Tipton.  You  spoke  awhile  ago  about  the  development  of  bean 
packing.  We  have  been  told  that  over  in  the  Pompano  area  most 
beans  are  packed  in  the  field,  rather  than  in  packing  houses. 

Mr.  Haney.  That's  due  to  the  fact  that  the  farms  are  smaller, 
therefore,  more  numerous,  and  they  just  haven't  the  capital,  you 
might  say,  to  put  up  grading  belts.  They  have  a  local  market  and 
their  stuff  is  auctioned  as  they  bring  it  in  each  day,  although  there 
are  some  grading  belts  there.  I  understand  that  a  certain  percentage 
of  the  beans  are  bought  at  a  discount  and  the  belt  operator  then  pro- 
ceeds to  grade  them  and  sell  them  at  the  regular  price. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Would  the  fact  that  the  farms  are  smaller  mean  that 
the  farmer  could  supervise  the  picking  and  the  packing  in  the  field 
to  a  greater  extent  than  would  be  possible  in  a  larger  operation? 


Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  that  would  be  the  case  to  a  certain  extent  but 
you  can't  get  the  perfection  with  the  type  of  labor  that  you  have  to 
contend  with  in  the  field  that  you  can  under  strict  supervision  in  a 
packing;  house. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  most  of  the  packing  houses  organizations  which 
do  only  packing  or  are  the  packing  houses  operated  by  farmers? 

Mr.  Haney.  Well,  in  my  opinion  the  law  of  economics  more  or  less 
eliminates  those  farmers  that  do  nothing  but,  you  might  say,  furnish 
the  raw  material  for  the  packing  house.  If  he  doesn't  become  large 
enough  to  do  his  own  packing  and  his  own  shipping  and  precooling, 
he  doesn't  stay  in  business  very  long.  Therefore,  here  in  Belle 
Glade  there  are  only  two  custom  packing  houses  that  do  a  great  deal 
of  business  and  they  are  doing  it  on  a  semicooperative  basis.  What 
I  mean  by  that  is,  they  don't  have  a  regularly  constituted  cooperative, 
but  for  the  sake  of  lowering  their  own  overhead  by  assuring  them- 
selves of  a  large  volume,  they  are  willing  to  eliminate  a  great  per- 
centage of  their  possible  profits  and  take  in  other  large  growers  for 
the  purpose  of  increasing  volume. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  say,  then,  that  these  packing  houses  pack  some 
produce  on  a  custom  basis,  but  are  also  growers.  Do  not  the  large 
growers  in  the  region  operate  their  own  packing  houses? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  think  that  there  are  enough  small  growers 
in  the  area  to  support  any  number  of  custom  packing  houses? 

Mr.  Haney.  No.  I  don't  think  so  because  a  small  grower  here 
would  be  considered  a  rather  large  grower  in  most  any  other  section 
of  the  country.  When  you  go  down  to  where  you  are  only  operating 
on  200  or  300  acres,  you  are  a  small  grower. 

Miss  Pascal.  The  total  volume  produced  by  the  very  small  growers 
is  low  because  they  are  so  few  in  number? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  Take  for  instance  the  Sanford  area,  where  in 
the  past  a  man  could  not  only  make  a  good  living  but  could  save 
money  in  growing  10  to  30  acres  of  celery.  You  can  see  that,  when 
in  this  section  they  are  growing  from  100  to  300  acres,  their  volume 
woidd  be  such  that  they  could  make  a  profit  at  a  price  where  the 
10-acre  man  couldn't  make  a  living  and  the  low  per-crate  production 
cost  is  probably  eventually  going  to  eliminate  the  small  10-  to  20-acre 

Miss  Pascal.  Were  you  talking  principally  of  the  celery  grower? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  I  was  talking  of  the  celery  grower  because  that 
was  primarily  a  celery-growing  section. 

Miss  Pascal.  I  mean,  when  you  were  talking  about  custom  packing 
houses  in  this  area.     Is  that  situation  generally  true  for  growers? 

Mr.  Haney.  That  is  generally  true  for  the  growers  of  all  crops. 


Mr.  Tipton.  When  the  grower  is  large  enough  to  process  his  own 
raw  materials,  as  you  said  awhile  ago,  does  that  have  a  tendency  to 
protect  his  investment  against  fluctuating  market  conditions,  a 
protection  that  he  wouldn't  have  if  he  only  grew? 

Mr.  Haney.  Oh,  yes;  because  he  has  the  additional  profit  from  his 
selling,  from  his  processing  and  his  precooling.  If  there  are  three 
profits  taken  out  of  the  farmer  who  is  just  simply  a  grower,  it  takes 


away  better  than  50  percent  of  his  possible  profit,  and  that  farmer 
who  is  large  enough  to  operate  a  processing  and  precooling  plant 
and  hire  his  own  salesman  could  break  even  or  take  a  small  loss  on 
his  farming  operations  year  after  year  and  still  be  in  better  position 
than  the  small  farmer  that  had  to  hire  that  part  of  it  done. 

Mr.  Tipton.  In  other  words,  while  he  might  not  make  any  profits, 
and  might  even  take  a  little  loss  on  his  actual  farming  operations,  he 
would  have  these  profits  on  processing,  packing,  selling,  and  precooling, 
which  are  definite  costs  that  must  be  taken  out  first,  in  the  case  of  the 
small  grower,  before  the  small  grower  makes  anything? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  is  exactly  like  the  case  of  the  commission  man  on 
the  other  end.  He  endeavors  to  get  volume.  He  must  have  volume 
because  his  profit  per  crate  is  small,  just  a  few  cents,  but  with  sufficient 
volume  he  will  have  quite  an  income.  The  same  thing  is  true  with 
the  farmer.  When  he  can  get  up  into  several  hundred  thousands  of 
packages,  even  a  profit  of  10  or  15  cents  a  crate  shows  considerable 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  mentioned  precooling  awhile  ago,  Mr.  Haney. 
What  is  the  process  of  precooling  and  for  what  products  is  it  necessary? 

Mr.  Haney.  All  of  the  leaf  crops  must  be  precooled.  There  are 
different  methods  of  precooling.  Some  of  them  are  run  through  a 
bath  of  cold  water.  Others  are  top  iced.  That  is,  two  or  three  tons 
of  shaved  ice  is  blown  onto  the  top  of  the  vegetable  crates  after  they 
are  loaded  in  the  car.  Otherwise,  there  is  what  the  trade  knows  as 
slimy  soft  rot.  That  takes  place  at  certain  temperatures  and  will 
attack  the  vegetation  en  route.  It  would  be  virtually  impossible  to 
ship  the  distances  we  have  to  ship  without  the  precooling.  The  same 
day  that  the  vegetables  are  taken  out  of  the  field,  they  are  precooled 
and  put  into  iced  cars. 

Miss  Pascal.  Then  those  cars  are  iced  from  time  to  time,  I  suppose, 
as  they  go  north? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  depending  on  the  season.  Initial  icing  will  carry 
them  through  in  the  colder  part  of  the  season,  but,  in  the  early  fall 
and  late  spring,  it  is  necessary  to  take  standard  refrigeration. 


Miss  Pascal.  What  are  the  usual  marketing  arrangements  made  by 
growers  in  this  area? 

Mr.  Haney.  That  varies  considerably  with  the  different  organiza- 
tions. Now,  our  organization  consigns  virtually  everything  that  we 
grow.  We  have  never  maintained  a  local  sales  platform  and  sell  a 
minimum  of  stuff  locally,  but  we  do  have  contacts  in  about  seven  of  the 
northern  markets,  that  we  have  had  for  the  last  10  or  12  years,  with 
reliable  commission  men  whom  we  attempt  to  keep  supplied  with  our 
commodities,  and  we  usually  get  the  top  of  the  market  in  that  way. 
Now,  as  is  the  case  in  any  other  business,  there  are  unscrupulous 
dealers  in  the  terminal  market  that  won't  give  an  in-and-out  shipper 
much  of  a  break.  There  have  been  some  rather  sad  experiences  with 
consignments,  so  that  certain  of  the  growers  and  packers  make  a 
business  of  selling  for  cash  here.  In  fact,  the  bulk  of  the  beans  are 
auctioned  right  at  the  packing  houses  here  in  Belle  Glade.  One 
organization  here,  in  particular,  that  is  one  of  the  largest  celery 
organizations,  if  not  the  largest,  sells  as  much  as  80  percent  of  their 


stuff  for  cash  at  their  packing  house.  They  have  a  trade  with  southern 
markets  on  celery,  in  particular,  and  sell  through  brokers  in  the 
northern  markets,  cash  on  the  platform.  Then  there  are  variations 
of  those  two  methods. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  any  of  the  large  farmers  around  here  maintain  a 
regular  sales  manager? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  we  have  a  sales  manager  for  our  own  produce. 
We  handle  nothing  but  our  own  produce. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  that's  quite  general  among  the  larger  growers? 

Mr.  Haney.  That's  general  among  the  larger  growers.  Some  of  the 
large  growers  act  as  their  own  sales  manager  and  have  farm  managers. 
Others  manage  their  farms  and  have  sales  managers. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  approximately  what  are  the  customary 
washing  and  packing  costs  for  celery,  and  what  is  the  customary 
charge  foi  precooling  a  carload  of  celery? 

Mr.  Haney.  Customs  vary  in  the  different  sections.  In  Belle 
Glade  the  practice  has  been  to  break  down  those  charges,  in  view 
of  the  fact  that  none  of  the  processors  complete  the  operation.  What 
I  mean  by  that  is,  they  don't  pack,  precool,  and  sell.  Now  there  is  a 
large  precooling  plant  that,  if  you  have  sufficient  volume,  will  precool 
your  celery  for  8  cents  a  crate.  There  are  other  organizations  that 
do  the  packing  and  the  selling.  The  price  of  selling  is  from  10  to  15 
cents  a  crate.  The  price  of  washing  and  packing,  with  the  crate 
furnished,  is  between  45  and  50  cents.  In  other  sections,  Sarasota, 
for  instance,  the  complete  job  will  be  done  for  from  GO  to  75  cents  a 
crate.  The  same  thing  is  true  of  the  Sanford-Oveido  section,  where 
the  reason  for  the  variation  in  the  custom  is  that  in  the  Sarasota, 
Sanford,  and  Oveido  sections  there  are  a  greater  number  of  small 
farmers  who  must  of  necessity  have  the  entire  job  done  for  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Isn't  it  also  common  practice  in  the  Sanford  section 
for  the  packing  houses  to  handle  harvesting  operations? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  it  is  done  on  a  contract  basis.  That  is,  the 
colored  foreman  contracts  with  the  processing  company  to  cut  their 
customers  celery  at  so  much  a  crate. 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  acres  of  celery  would  you  consider  neces- 
sary for  a  celery  farmer  to  have  before  it  would  be  profitable  for  him 
to  put  in  his  own  washing  and  packmg  house  and  his  own  precooler? 

Mr.  Haney.  Anywhere  from  120  acres  up. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  would  be  true  of  both  the  washing  and  packmg 

Mr.  Haney.  That  would  be  true  of  the  washing  and  packing  house 
but  the  smallest  kind  of  a  precooler  that  would  be  economical  would 
service  one  or  two  others  of  that  size. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  would  be  around  300  or  400  acres  to  supply  the 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  You  see,  in  my  opinion,  the  economical  thing 
for  a  farmer  to  do  is  to  have  his  washing  and  packing  plant  located  on 
the  farm  at  the  edge  of  his  field  where  he  doesn't  have  the  problem  of 
disposing  of  the  refuse.     You  see,  this  processing  of  celery  is  carried 


to  the  nth  degree  and  everything  not  edible  is  taken  off  and  plowed 
back  into  the  ground.  If  you  have  to  transport  the  celery  8  or  10 
miles  into  town  and  then  take  back  the  refuse  to  the  farm,  it  adds  to 
your  overhead.  If  you  can  do  your  processing,  with  the  exception  of 
your  precooling,  on  the  farm,  then  your  precooler  can  be  located  in 
town  on  the  railroad  track  where,  immediately  after  coming  out  of 
the  precooler,  it  is  put  into  a  car  and  the  car  closed  to  conserve  your 

Miss  Pascal.  On  this  basis  of  120  acres  for  washing  and  packing 
house  and  300  to  400  acres  for  precoolers,  can  you  give  us  an  estimate 
of  the  investment  necessary  to  establish  those  two  operations? 

Mr.  Haney.  The  individual  farmer  can  put  up  his  packing  house, 
that  is  under  pre-war  conditions,  for  probably  $2,500.  With  about  as 
small  a  unit  as  he  could  get,  and  this  wouldn't  be  new  equipment,  a 
person  who  wanted  to  spend  a  little  time  getting  used  equipment 
could  put  up  a  precooler  for  from  $12,000  to  $18,000  that  would 
service  at  least  three  such  houses.  But,  you  know,  the  difficulty  with 
the  farmers  is  they  haven't  reached  the  point  where  they  are  in  a 
cooperative  frame  of  mind.  It  takes  adversity  to  make  the  farmer 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  say  that  farmers  are  not  cooperative.  I  wonder 
if  you  would  explain  a  little  more  of  what  you  mean  by  that? 

Mr.  Haney.  Well,  it  seems  to  me  that  is  shows  up  more  in  this 
section  than  any  other  I  was  ever  in.  Each  fellow  wants  to  run  his 
own  show.  He  doesn't  want  to  be  bothered  with  synchronizing  his 
efforts  with  those  of  one  or  more  others.  While  we  have  one  semi- 
cooperative  organization  here  in  this  section  that  is  working  out  fairly 
well,  nevertheless  there  is  considerable  dissension.  There  are  five  of 
them,  and  they  can't  come  to  an  agreement  on  a  general  policy.  By 
that  I  mean  that  one  or  two  want  to  sell  their  own.  They  don't 
want  to  hire  a  salesman  and  let  him  sell  their  commodities.  There 
are  others  that  use  some  of  the  sales  agencies.  They  don't  want  to 
conform  to  any  general  policy  as  to  whether  they  shall  consign  or  sell 
at  the  platform.  Some  of  them  consign  and  some  of  them  utilize 
their  association's  salesmen  at  the  platform.  So  it  isn't  a  real  coop- 
erative. They  just  haven't  the  idea  of  cooperation.  As  I  under- 
stand cooperation,  any  individual  in  it  must  submerge  some  of  his 
own  interests  for  the  benefit  of  the  total  group,  and  that's  one  thing 
it  seems  to  me  that  no  individual  wants  to  do. 

Mr.  Tipton.  1  understand  from  what  you  say  that  this  lack  of 
cooperation  in  this  organization  you  mention  is  the  failure  of  large 
growers  to  cooperate  with  each  other. 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  that  there  is  any  future  in  this  country 
for  the  cooperation  of  small  growers  who  haven't  the  alternatives 
that  the  large  grower  has? 

Mr.  Haney.  Decidedly  so.  There  is  also  a  future  for  cooperation 
of  the  large  grower,  or  a  combination  of  large  and  small  growers,  be- 
cause economic  necessity  is  going  to  make  it  necessary  and,  when  it 
does,  we  will  have  100  percent  cooperation. 



Mr.  Tipton.  In  that  connection,  I  wonder  if  you  are  familiar  with 
the  project  that  the  Farm  Security  Administration  is  establishing  over 
near  Port  Mayaca? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  there  is  a  future  for  that  sort  of  thing, 
from  the  standpoint  both  of  drainage  problems  down  here  and  also 
from  the  standpoint  of  these  marketing  conditions  of  which  you  have 
been  speaking? 

Mr.  Haney.  Well,  I  have  thought  quite  a  bit  about  that  project. 
If  it  is  possible  to  get  150  unsuccessful  farmers  to  take  orders  from  a 
farm  manager  that  knows  his  business  and  if  it  is  possible  to  make 
that  same  150  unsuccessful  farmers  work,  there  is  no  reason  why  it 
won't  be  a  great  success. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then,  you  would  say  that  theoretically  that  sort  of  a 
project  is  well  adapted  to  this  region  and  that  the  limitations  would 
be  on  the  personal  level  rather  than  on  the  business  or  technical 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  The  problem  is  going  to  be  the  various  personal 
ideas  in  the  organization.  Now,  these  people  that  this  manager  is 
going  to  have  to  depend  upon,  to  say  the  least,  are  not  the  most  effi- 
cient people  in  the  world  or  they  wouldn't  be  there.  I  know  from  ex- 
perience with  migratory  people  that  it  isn't  because  they  haven't  the 
will  to  do.  They  just  haven't  the  capacity.  _  I  have  had  several  work- 
ing for  me  that  had  the  will,  they  were  anxious  and  willing  to  make 
good,  but  just  to  put  it  plainly,  they  didn't  have  sense  enough  to  do 
anything  for  themselves.  So  they  have  got  to  be  trained  to  take 
orders.  They  have  got  to  be  trained  to  do  the  things  that  they  are 
asked  to  do  and  learn  to  do  them  well.  It  is  just  the  same  as  with  the 
people  in  the  Ford  factory.  They  can  earn  a  profit  for  Ford,  and  a 
very  good  living  for  themselves,  simply  by  learning  to  do  just  one 
simple  thing  and  do  it  well.  Now,  if  this  man  has  the  ability  to  or- 
ganize them  along  that  line,  and  pick  out  those  few  who  have  some 
ability,  to  make  them  subforemen  and  more  or  less  regiment  the  others 
to  where  he  can  perfect  a  sort  of  a  machine,  it  is  going  to  jell.  Other- 
wise, I  don't  know. 


Miss  Pascal.  Has  the  number  of  permanent  farmers,  that  is,  year 
round  resident  farmers  in  the  lake  region,  increased  lately  as  opposed 
to  those  farmers  who  come  down  here  in  the  winter  season  just  to  grow 
a  crop? 

Mr.  Haney.  Oh,  yes;  in  the  last  5  or  6  years  the  bulk  of  the  per- 
manent farms  have  been  established.  It  is  still  a  pioneer  section. 
We  are  still  just  beginning  to  develop  the  Everglades  and  with  the 
exception,  I  will  say,  of  a  half  dozen  old  pioneers  that  really  developed 
the  first  farms,  everything  that  you  see  here  today  has  been  accom- 
plished in  the  last  6  years.  The  wildcat  operators  are  rapidly  going 
out  of  existence.  What  I  mean  by  that,  the  men  that  jump  from 
rented  farm  to  rented  farm,  without  regard  for  the  soil  itself,  with  no 
thought  of  the  future,  concentrating  on  what  they  can  get  out  of  that 
piece  of  land  that  year,  knowing  that  the  following  year  they  jump  to 
some  other  piece  of  land  and  abuse  it.     Those  people  are  rapidly  dis- 


appearing.  One  reason  is  that  the  land  that  they  could  rent  in  pre- 
vious years  is  now  being  taken  up  by  permanent  farming  operations. 
They  haven't  the  ability  nor  the  inclination  to  go  out  and  develop 
raw  land,  so,  in  the  most  part,  they  are  working  for  someone  else  now 
or  else  they  are  not  coming  down  to  this  section  of  the  country. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  mean  that  they  used  to  come  down  for  the  season 
but  didn't  live  here  regularly? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  there  were  a  great  many  such  farmers.  There 
is  another  group  here  now  who  are  established  specialty  farmers  in 
the  North.  What  I  mean  by  that,  they  specialize  in  one  or  more 
rapidly  growing  vegetables,  Chinese  cabbage  and  radishes  and  things 
of  that  kind,  and  they  have  established  a  trade  for  those  articles  in  the 
northern  markets.  By  coming  to  the  Everglades,  they_  can  make  it 
almost  a  12-month  operation  and  don't  have  to  break  in  with  their 
customers  each  spring.  They  can  supply  the  needs  of  that  man 
through  the  season  by  growing  part  of  the  time  in  the  Everglades. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  there  is  an  additional  advantage  to  them  in  the 
fact  that  their  overhead  costs  for  machinery — — 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  they  do  transfer  the  machinery  from  one  place  to 
another  and  so,  not  only  keep  their  customers  supplied,  but  their  ma- 
chinery in  operation  virtually  12  months  out  of  the  year. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  told  us  something  about  this  cooperative  cane 
growers'  enterprise  that  has  just  been  started.  _  I  suppose  you  would 
say  that  it  is  another  example  of  the  grower  going  into  at  least  a  part 
of  the  processing  operations  in  order  to  increase  his  benefits? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  We  have  made  some  progress  with  the  cane 
cooperative.  Of  course,  the  limiting  factor  is,  what  we  people  of 
Florida  think,  the  unjust  Sugar  Act  of  1937  that  prevents  us  from 
obtaining  private  capital.  At  this  time  our  Senators  are  busy  in  an 
attempt  to  obtain  financing  through  the  regularly  constituted  agencies 
and  we  hope  that  in  the  near  future  we  will  be  able  to  go  ahead  with  it. 
Senator  Pepper  is  particularly  interested.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  he 
has  been  a  leader  in  the  movement  all  the  way  through  and,  as  things 
look  right  now,  he  is  going  to  be  successful  in  raising  the  finances. 

Miss  Pascal.  Mr.  Haney,  will  you  describe  for  us  the  problems  of 
labor,  both  from  the  standpoint  of  the  workers  themselves  and  from 
the  standpoint  of  the  employers  in  this  region? 

LABOR    SUPPLY,  1941-42 

Mr.  Haney.  Now,  the  demand  for  labor,  of  course,  depends  entirely 
upon  the  crop  situation.  A  large  percentage  of  the  hand  labor  in  the 
field  is  bean  picking.  Now,  fortunately,  the  fall  bean  picking  is  over 
before  we  start  harvesting  potatoes,  cabbage,  and  celery.  The  com- 
modities that  we  grow  lend  themselves  very  nicely  to  a  continuous 
employment.  As  a  usual  thing,  the  fall  bean  picking  is  over  before 
the  fall  potatoes  are  ready  to  harvest  and  beans  don't  begin  again 
until  the  winter  celery  is  pretty  well  harvested.  Now,  there  are  at 
least  two  definite  bean  growing  sections,  that  of  the  east  coast  and  that 
of  the  Glades,  and  when  they  both  have  a  good  growing  season  and 
come  in  competition  with  each  other  for  labor  is  the  time  that  we 
usually  have  a  shortage.  We  had  such  a  shortage  for  a  week  or  two  or 
three  last  fall,  due  in  part  to  the  fact  that  we  didn't  have  as  many 
migratory  field  laborers  here  as  usual.     So  far  this  spring  there  has 


been  no  shortage  and  that  was  due  to  the  fact  that  the  Pompano 
section  or  the  east  coast,  that  should  be  using  large  numbers  of  field 
hands,  was  damaged  by  rainfall  to  such  an  extent  that  most  of  those 
people  could  be  utilized  in  the  Glades.  Another  factor  this  year  was  a 
rather  late  frost  and  more  recently,  a  week  or  10  days  ago,  an 
unseasonable  rain  that  damaged  the  beans  to  an  estimated  extent  of 
about  50  percent. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  happened  here  in  Belle  Glade? 


Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  Therefore,  the  most  pessimistic  are  not  antici- 
pating a  shortage  for  the  remainder  of  the  season.  Since  the  Farm 
Security  Administration  housing  projects  were  put  in,  it  seems  to 
me  that  they  have  made  it  necessary  for  those  with  their  own  quarters 
to  make  definite  improvements  in  their  housing  facilities  in  order  to 
keep  their  laborers  satisfied.  There  have  also  been  definite  improve- 
ments in  the  colored  section  of  Belle  Glade,  due  partly,  in  my  opinion, 
to  the  superior  housing  afforded  by  the  Farm  Security  Administration. 
In  the  last  4  or  5  years  there  have  been  improvements  in  the  colored 
section,  such  as  the  installation  of  pipe  lines,  supplying  them  with 
water  and  an  improvement  in  sanitation.  Nevertheless,  there  is 
much  to  be  desired  in  sanitation  and  general  living  conditions  in  the 
colored  section  and  yet,  for  some  reason,  in  fact  for  many  reasons,  the 
colored  camp  of  the  Farm  Security  hasn't  been  filled  to  capacity,  as 
yet.  Certain  unscrupulous  white  property  owners  in  the  colored 
section  of  Belle  Glade  have  circulated  stories,  working  on  the  ignorance 
of  the  colored  laborers,  pointing  out  the  restrictions  that  they  would 
be  subjected  to  in  the  camp,  even  going  so  far  as  to  sell  them  on  the 
idea  that,  upon  entering  the  camp,  they  would  undoubtedly  immedi- 
ately be  transferred  to  the  Army.  That's  just  a  sample  of  the  stories 
that  circulate  but,  as  far  as  my  personal  experience  is  concerned,  I 
have  had  considerable  better  luck  with  the  employees  located  in  the 
camp  than  I  have  with  those  in  the  quarters,  due  to  the  restrictions  as 
to  conduct  in  the  camps.  You  will  get  a  much  more  reliable  type  of 
laborer  out  of  the  camps  than  you  can  possibly  get  out  of  the  quarters. 
Another  important  thing,  a  vitally  important  thing,  is  the  campaign 
that  the  Farm  Security  Administration  is  putting  on  against  venereal 
diseases  in  the  camps.  Any  farm  hands  that  you  get  out  of  the  camps 
you  know  have  been  given  a  physical  examination  and  that  they  are 
under  treatment,  regardless  of  what  their  trouble  might  be,  and,  on 
account  of  the  high  rate  of  syphilis,  at  least  to  me  that  is  more  or  less 
of  a  consolation.  The  Farm  Security  Administration,  and  I  believe 
that  most  any  farmer  in  the  section  would  substantiate  this,  is  doing 
wonderful  work  in  improving  the  health  of  both  white  and  colored 
laborers,  particularly  that  of  the  children,  as  each  camp  has  a  clinic,  a 
school,  ana  nursery  operating  24  hours  a  day.  The  nursery  makes  it 
possible  for  the  parents  to  work  in  the  fields  during  the  day  while  their 
children  are  being  cared  for  in  the  nursery  at  a  minimum  charge  of  25 
cents  for  24  hours  in  the  white  camp  and  10  cents  in  the  colored  camp, 
unaer  the  supervision  of  trained  nurses,  with  a  physician  on  call  at 
ail  times. 

Mr.  Tipton.  In  testimony  before  the  committee  about  a  year  ago, 
Mrs.  Roosevelt  told  of  a  trip   which  she  took  through  this  area, 


describing  extremely  bad  living  conditions  in  the  Negro  quarters. 
Would  you  say  that  there  has  been  substantial  improvement  since 


Mr.  Haney.  At  the  time  that  Mrs.  Roosevelt  was  here  conditions 
were  terrible  in  the  quarters.  There  is  no  doubt  about  that,  but  not 
so  bad  as  they  were  3  or  4  years  before  that.  When  I  first  came 
down  here  6  years  ago  colored  people  were  paying  25  cents  a  night 
to  sleep  on  a  truck  body,  just  an  ordinary  stake  truck  with  bean 
bags  on  the  platform  and  a  tarpaulin  over  it,  simply  because  there 
was  no  place  for  them  to  live.  There  is  reason  for  that.  The  develop- 
ment here  was  rapid  and  the  demand  for  housing  was  considerably 
greater  than  the  building.  There  is  no  particular  profit  in  main- 
taining quarters,  unless  you  do  charge  more  than  seems  reasonable, 
because  this  type  of  colored  help  have  no  respect  for  property  and 
those  quarters,  as  poor  as  they  were,  virtually  need  rebuilding  each 
year.  They  will  burn  up  the  doorsteps  and  if  there  is  any  woodwork 
they  will  burn  that  for  fuel — everything  that  is  movable.  If  there 
is  sheeting  on  the  inside  of  the  house  they  will  tear  it  off  and  use  it 
for  fuel.  It  was  a  real  problem  to  maintain  sufficient  quarters,  and 
these  migratory  workers  are  here  for  a  much  shorter  time  than  our 
regularly  employed  hands.  There  are  really  two  seasons  in  the  Belle 
Glade  section,  a  fall  season  of  about  2  months,  then  there  is  the 
migration  to  the  east  coast  for  3  months  or  so,  then  there  is  the  mi- 
gration back  and  another  spring  season  of  approximately  2  months. 
So  that  we  needed  this  excess  housing  only  about  4  months  in  the 
whole  year,  and  that's  another  reason  why  the  Farm  Security  Ad- 
ministration's project  was  so  necessary  for  the  section. 

While  we  have  been  very  fortunate  with  our  labor  problems  this 
year,  there  is  no  doubt  that,  as  more  men  are  called  into  the  service, 
both  in  the  fighting  forces  and  in  the  defense  projects,  we  are  going 
to  have  to  reconstruct  our  ideas  of  what  it  takes  in  the  way  of  labor 
to  carry  on  our  farming  operations.  As  the  majority  of  the  farmers 
don't  feel  like  asking  deferments  for  able-bodied  farm  employees,  it 
does  work  a  definite  hardship  on  the  farmer  because  you  do  have  to 
have  a  certain  number  of  maybe  not  skilled  employees,  but  at  least 
those  who  have  some  training. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  next  year? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  seems  to  me  that  as  far  as  another  season  is  con- 
cerned, we  should  make  some  effort  through  the  slack  season  of  the 
summer  months  to  perfect  a  system,  in  conjunction  with  the  regularly 
constituted  organizations  sponsored  by  the  Federal  Government,  and 
in  operation  in  every  county  in  the  State,  whereby  all  available 
man-hours  could  be  utilized  to  the  fullest  extent.  That,  of  course, 
is  nothing  impossible  but  implies  calling  for  some  study  and  thought, 
as  well  as  cooperation,  on  the  part  of  the  farmers. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  had  occasion  to  use  the  services  of  the 
Farm  Placement  men  of  the  United  States  Employment  Service  this 

Mr.  Haney.  To  some  extent  we  have,  yes.  They  were  set  up  to 
make  transfers  from  the  various  south  Florida  sections  as  the  labor 


was  needed  and  actually  had  started  that  service  when  the  recent 
floods  made  it  unnecessary. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  they  will  be  of  assistance  to  you  in 
helping  solve  labor  problems  for  next  year? 

Mr.  Haney.  I  don't  think  there  is  any  doubt  about  that.  I 
think  they  will  be  of  great  assistance,  chiefly  in  making  available  the 
information  as  to  what  sections  of  the  State  have  a  surplus  of  labor 
and  arranging  for  transfer  to  the  sections  where  there  is  a  shortage. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  they  will  be  able  to  do  anything  along 
the  lines  of  more  fully  utilizing  man-hours  within  the  given  section? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  although  that  is  going  to  be  a  difficult  problem. 
To  go  into  detail  on  that,  in  the  last  few  years  there  has  been  de- 
veloped a  rather  large  group,  particularly  of  colored  labor,  who  con- 
sider themselves  specialists,  so  far  as  picking  beans  is  concerned,  and 
unless  it  is  absolutely  necessary  they  will  do  nothing  but  pick  beans. 
So  we  may  find  that  in  order  to  overcome  that  tendency,  we  might 
have  to  have  some  authority  other  than  what  we  have  now — because 
if  a  man  doesn't  want  to  work  at  anything  but  bean  picking,  there  is 
no  way  we  can  make  him  do  it. 


Miss  Pascal.  We  have  heard  that  the  field  hands  prefer  to  pick 
beans  because  they  can  earn  more  money  in  a  shorter  time  by  working 
that  crop.  Do  you  suppose  that  is  the  reason  for  this  desire  to  special- 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes;  they  can  earn  more  money  picking  than  they  do 
by  working  by  the  day,  but  the  reason  that  they  earn  more  money  is 
because  they  work;  while,  when  they  are  working  by  the  day,  their 
main  object  is  to  put  in  the  day,  not  to  turn  out  any  given  amount  of 
work.  That's  why  it  is  necessary  to  have  so  many  foremen,  and 
that's  one  of  the  things  that  work  a  hardship  on  farmers  of  this  section. 
When  you  get  a  foreman  trained  in  the  supervision  of  a  group  of 
colored  laborers  and  he  is  taken  away,  you  have  difficulty  in  obtaining 
another  one,  but  for  each  group  of  any  size  you  have  to  have  a  white 
foreman  if  you  expect  to  get  anything  like  value  received.  Now,  we 
had  a  profitable  experience  this  winter  in  our  celery  cutting,  whereby 
we  let  them  cut  celery  for  so  much  a  crate.  Now,  working  by  the 
day,  that  group  of  workmen  were  costing  us  UK  cents  a  crate.  Real- 
izing that  they  were  only  working  about  half  time,  I  put  the  piece- 
work price  at  6  cents.  Whereas,  when  they  were  working  by  the  day, 
the  women  got  $1.75  a  day  and  men  got  $2,  in  order  to  put  them  on  a 
piece  basis  I  had  to  give  them  the  same  rate  so  they  all  participated 
equally  in  the  piece  work  and  within  a  week  they  were  making  $3  a 
day  apiece.  Instead  of  costing  me  11%  cents,  it  was  costing  me  6 
cents  and,  later  on,  they  developed  their  technique  to  such  an  extent 
that  they  were  making  as  high  as  $3.75  a  day,  both  men  and  women. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  organize  this  crew? 

Mr.  HaNey.  It  was  the  same  crew  and  we  cut  the  celery  in  the  same 
manner,  except  that  we  paid  them  by  the  crate  instead  of  by  the  day 
and  had  to  keep  closer  supervision  in  order  to  get  a  quality  job  on 
the  cutting. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  constitutes  a  celery  crew? 

Mr.  Haney.  In  this  particular  crew  there  were  about  28. 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  was  the  work  divided? 

Mr.  Haney.  Twenty-eight  working  as  a  group.  There  were  6 
cutters,  12  strippers,  6  packers,  1  man  to  cut  tops,  1  man  to  carry 
boxes,  and  2  loaders. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then  this  crew,  as  a  crew,  got  6  cents  per  crate  for 
harvesting  celery? 

Mr.  Haney.  That's  field  crates,  in  the  field.  The  one  stipulation 
was  that  when  those  were  taken  into  the  packing  house  that  they  must 
pack  out  80  percent,  indicating  that  they  were  stripped  properly  and 
properly  packed. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  was  your  success  under  this  latter  stipulation 
and  with  the  new  plan  as  a  whole? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  worked  out  very  nicely.  Another  season  I  will 
have  further  supervision  of  work  in  the  field.  There  were  times  when 
the  quality  of  our  work  was  at  a  rather  low  ebb,  but  it  was  satisfactory 
generally  and,  with  perfecting  a  few  things,  I  think  it  will  work  all 
right.  You  see  my  object  in  doing  that  was  to  overcome  the  tempta- 
tion to  quit  the  job  with  me  and  go  to  picking  beans  when  the  time 
came  that  they  could  make  $5  and  $6  a  day,  regardless  of  the  fact  that 
they  work  only  3  or  4  days.  That's  what  I  mean  by  utilizing  the 
man-hours.  The  nature  of  this  bean  picking  is  a  rank  waste  of  man- 
hours.  For  instance,  beans  are  something  that  must  be  picked  right 
on  the  dot.  If  they  are  ready  to  pick  today,  they  must  be  picked 
today  or  they  won't  be  first-class  beans  tomorrow.  Therefore,  you 
will  see  as  high  as  from  500  to  800  men  in  one  man's  field  in  the 
morning,  a  row  to  each  person,  and  it  is  his  duty  for  the  day  to  pick 
that  row.  He  will  come  out  in  the  morning  at  7  o'clock.  That  has 
developed  into  a  custom  because,  if  you  go  to  the  quarters  in  the 
middle  of  the  forenoon,  there  won't  be  anyone  available.  So  you  have 
to  pick  them  up  at  daybreak  and  carry  them  to  the  field,  regardless 
of  the  fact  that  a  great  many  mornings  they  won't  be  able  to  work 
until  11  o'clock,  and  very  seldom  will  they  be  able  to  work  before  9:30. 
They  can  earn  as  much  money  as  they  want  to  earn  that  day  by  4:30 
or  5  in  the  afternoon  so  that  virtually  half  of  the  man-hours  of  that 
entire  crew  are  wasted  that  day. 

scheduled  plantings  suggested 

Now,  the  practice  has  been,  in  the  past,  for  the  bean  farmers  to 
plant  rather  large  daily  plantings.  In  fact,  they  won't  plant  daily 
plantings,  they  will  plant  two  or  three  times  a  week,  so  that  it  becomes 
necessary  for  them  to  have  this  huge  group  of  people  come  into  their 
field  only  two  or  three  times  a  week.  Now  there  have  always  been 
sufficient  numbers  of  workers  so  that  they  could  get  all  they  wanted 
into  the  field  each  morning.  Now  it  just  occurs  to  me  that  it  may  be 
necessary,  referring  again  to  that  summer  planning,  for  the  farmers  to 
plan  their  plantings  to  where  they  can  take  a  certain  group  of  farm 
laborers  and  work  them  every  day  on  their  own  farm.  When  they  do 
that  and  establish  the  fact  that  they  are  the  "boss-man"  and  that  that 
group  is  working  for  them,  then  they  can  get  them  to  do  other  things 
besides  pick  beans.  For  instance,  I  am  not  a  bean  grower  but,  if  I 
were  a  bean  grower,  I  could  cut  celery  in  the  forenoon  and  pick  beans 
in  the  afternoon  and  get  just  as  many  hours  per  day  out  of  that 
particular  group  picking  beans  as  I  would  if  I  didn't  have  any  celery. 


Miss  Pascal.  We  understand  that  growers  usually  have  a  group  of 
field  hands  living  in  their  own  quarters,  considered  as  more  or  less 
permanent  employes.  Does  that  solve  the  problem  to  any  great 

Mr.  Haney.  It  does  to  a  certain  extent,  but  in  the  past  the  farmers 
haven't  considered  it  profitable  to  keep  through  the  summer  more  than 
a  small  percentage  of  the  hands  necessary  in  the  winter.  When  you 
are  growing  beans  you  can't  hope  to  maintain  sufficient  quarters  to 
house  the  people  necessary  for  picking.  That's  where  the  housing 
project  of  the  Farm  Security  Administration  came  in  so  well,  it  being 
more  or  less  surplus  labor  that  took  advantage  of  this  housing  project. 
They  were  mostly  bean  pickers  and,  unless  you  made  special  arrange- 
ments to  house  certain  of  your  crew  in  a  group  of  Farm  Security  build- 
ings, you  couldn't  get  any  farm  hands  outside  of  bean  pickers  from  the 


Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  cut  your  celery  regularly,  about  every  day? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes.  You  see  the  way  the  celery  develops,  you  start 
planting  the  last  week  in  September  and  you  plant  for  16  weeks,  daily 
plantings,  or  at  least  4  or  5  days  a  week.  It  takes  about  90  days  for 
the  celery  to  grow,  so  you  will  start  cutting  the  1st  of  January  and  you 
will  cut  for  1G  weeks.  You  will  have  a  crew  of  sufficient  size  to  keep 
them  employed  about  5  days  a  week  in  both  your  setting  and  cutting. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  crews  did  you  have? 

Mr.  Haney.  Just  one  crew. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  find  that  members  of  the  crew  would  work 
regularly  every  day? 

Mr.  Haney.  You  see,  with  the  system  we  had,  it  was  necessary  for 
the  crew  to  work  regularly  every  day  but,  in  order  to  keep  50  farm 
hands  working,  you  probably  would  run  from  70  to  80  names  through 
your  pay  roll  each  week. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  said  that  in  order  to  have  50  people  working 
during  the  week,  you  would  run  about  70  names  through  your  pay 

Mr.  Haney.  That  isn't  nearly  as  bad  as  it  used  to  be.  The  fact 
that  they  can  get  steady  employment  and  that  each  member  of  the 
crew,  after  he  becomes  accustomed  to  the  work,  is  responsible  more  or 
less  for  the  efforts  of  the  total  crew  tends  toward  making  them  more 
reliable  and  steady  in  their  work. 


Miss  Pascal.  Do  any  of  the  growers  around  here  pay  semiwcekly 
or  weekly,  instead  of  daily,  in  an  effort  to  keep  their  laborers  working 
through  the  week? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes,  certain  types  of  labor  such  as  tractor  drivers  are 
paid  by  the  week.  They  are  steadier.  But  the  majority  of  the  farm 
workers  are  paid  once  a  week  but  not  by  the  week.  For  instance, 
I  pay  so  much  a  day,  $2  a  day  now,  presumably  this  is  20  cents  an 
hour  but  they  only  work  9  hours,  but  I  pay  off  once  a  week. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  about  the  workers  that  are  more  irregular 
about  working,  such  as  pickers.     Are  they  always  paid  off  every  day? 


Mr.  Haney.  Yes,  any  piece  work.  Now,  the  one  exception  is  this 
plan  of  mine.  I  pay  them  once  a  week  and  yet  they  are  working  by 
the  piece,  but  in  the  cabbage  operation  I  carried  on  tins  year,  when 
I  had  the  cabbage  boys  working  on  the  hamper — this  is  something 
new  working  in  piece  work  in  celery  so  they  haven't  conceived  the 
idea  of  getting  paid  each  night  yet— but  when  I  have  them  working 
on  the  piece  on  cabbage,  it  has  been  the  custom  in  the  past  that  all 
cabbage  cutters  got  paid  every  night,  so  we  had  to  pay  every  night 
for  the  cabbage. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  they  never  suggested  you  pay  off  every  night  on 
celery?  . 

Mr.  Haney.  No,  because  it  has  been  customary  to  get  paid  once 
a  week,  they  didn't  think  far  enough  to  think  they  were  working  by 
the  piece  and  possibly  could  have  demanded  their  pay  every  night. 
They  were  perfectly  willing  to  let  it  run  until  Saturday . 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  this  system  of  celery  cutting  involve  much  extra 
bookkeeping  on  your  part? 

Mr.  Haney.  Not  at  all.  It  was  a  matter  of  keeping  account  of 
the  number  of  field  crates  that  were  cut  each  day  and,  in  cases  where 
a  person  didn't  work  the  full  week,  figure  out  their  pro  rata  share  of 
what  was  cut  the  days  that  they  were  there. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  any  way  of  estimating  the  production 
under  the  old  system  and  comparing  it  with  the  production  under 
the  new  system? 

Mr.  Haney.  As  I  say,  this  celery  piece  cutting — to  the  best  of  my 
knowledge,  I  am  the  only  one  that  did  it  this  winter — is  much  better 
for  me  and  much  better  for  the  workers  because  the  extra  exertion  of 
earning  the  $3  to  $3.75  doesn't  seem  to  be  a  bit  harder  on  them  than 
the  mental  unrest  of  putting  in  the  day,  keeping  out  of  the  foreman's 
way,  you  know. 

Miss  Pascal.  Under  the  old  system,  the  women  were  earning  less 
than  the  men  and,  under  this  system,  they  all  earn  the  same  amount? 

Mr.  Haney.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  they  think  that  is  fan? 

Mr.  Haney.  There  wasn't  a  word  said  about  that.  The  women 
doubled  their  pay  and  the  men  didn't  do  quite  as  well  but,  as  long  as 
the  men  were  getting  more  than  any  other  of  the  Negroes  working  in 
celery,  they  didn't  seem  to  worry  about  how  much  the  women  were 

division  of  work 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  the  women  doing  somewhat  lighter  work,  such 
as  stripping,  or  is  it  about  the  same? 

Mr.  Haney.  It  is  about  the  same.  They  are  doing  considerably 
more  work  than  the  men.  That's  usually  the  case  with  the  colored 
people  unless  it  is  heavy  work,  but  in  the  minds  of  the  colored  people 
they  have  drawn  a  definite  line  as  to  what's  the  man's  work  and 
what's  the  women's  work.  It  doesn't  take  them  long.  It  doesn't 
take  a  colored  person  long  to  become  a  specialist  at  any  particular 
thing.  You  start  a  boy  cutting  tops  and  he  soon  becomes  quite  an 
expert  at  that  and  he  is  a  top  cutter  and  he  is  going  to  put  up  a  big 
argument  before  he  will  change. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you  very  much  indeed,  Mr.  Haney.  VV  e 
greatly  appreciate  your  kind  cooperation  in  giving  us  this  very  com- 
prehensive statement. 


BELLE  GLADE,  FLA.,  APRIL  26,   1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  please  give  your  name  and  address? 

Mr.  Bryant.  William  Bryant,  Belle  Glade,  Fla. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  have  you  been  living  here  in  the  camp? 

Mr.  Bryant.  This  is  the  second  season. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  are  there  in  your  family? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Seven;  wife  and  five  children. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  any  of  the  children  old  enough  to  help  you  work? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many? 

Mr.  Bryant.  All  of  them,  every  one  of  them  able,  all  of  them  able 
to  work. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  years  have  you  been  coming  down  to  south 

Mr.  Bryant.  This  is  the  second  season. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  you  have  lived  here  in  the  camp  both  seasons? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  is  your  home? 

Mr.  Bryant.  South  Carolina. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  were  born  and  raised  in  South  Carolina? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  When  did  you  leave  South  Carolina? 

Mr.  Bryant.  1940. 

Miss  Pascal.  Were  you  settled  there  until  1940  when  you  came 
down  here? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes,  ma'am. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  been  going  back  up  north  in  the  summer? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes;  going  back  up-State.  I  haven't  been  back  to 
South  Carolina.  Since  I  left  there  I  go  on  up  to  North  Carolina, 
Virginia,  and  work  in  Virginia,  Maryland,  and  Long  Island,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  you  were  living  up  in  South  Carolina,  did  you 
farm  there? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes;  I  had  a  farm. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  crops  were  you  growing? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Corn  and  cotton,  peas  and  potatoes. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  large  was  the  farm? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Two-horse  farm. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  is  that  in  acres? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Sixteen  acres  of  cotton,  and  beans  and  corn  and 
potatoes  that  you  want. 

Miss  Pascal.  Why  did  you  leave  your  place  up  there  and  come 
down  here  to  work? 

Mr.  Bryant.  I  got  to  the  place  where  I  couldn't  hardly  make  a 
living  so  I  had  a  chance  to  try  to  do  better. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  find  you  are  doing  better  by  following  crops? 

Mr.  Bryant.  I  am  working  for  Mr.  Haney. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  find  that  you  are  doing  better? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes;  I  am  doing  a  little  better  than  I  did  at  home. 

Miss  Pascal.  When  did  you  leave  south  Florida  last  summer  and 
start  up  north? 

60396 — 42 — pt.  33 14 



Mr.  Bryant.  I  left  last  May,  on  the  20th. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  did  you  go  from  here? 

Mr.  Bryant.  North  Carolina. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  part? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Elizabeth  City. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  kind  of  crops  do  they  have  there? 


You  were  picking  up  potatoes? 

Yes,  ma'am. 

How  long  did  that  last? 

About  3  or  4  weeks. 
Miss  Pascal.  Where  did  you  move  from  there? 
Mr.  Bryant.  To  Virginia. 
Miss  Pascal.  What  did  you  do  in  Virginia? 

Picked  strawberries  and  picked  up  potatoes. 

And  from  Virginia? 

To  Maryland. 

What  part? 

Pocomoke,  Md. 

What  crops  do  they  have  there? 

Potatoes  and  tomatoes. 
Miss  Pascal.  How  long  were  you  there? 
Mr.  Bryant.  Lasts  about  3  or  4  weeks. 

What  time  of  the  year  was  that? 

That  was  in  the  summer  months,   along  in  July, 

Mr.  Bryant. 
Miss  Pascal 
Mr.  Bryant 
Miss  Pascal 
Mr.  Bryant 

Mr.  Bryant. 
Miss  Pascal. 
Mr.  Bryant. 
Miss  Pascal. 
Mr.  Bryant. 
Miss  Pascal. 
Mr.  Bryant. 

Miss  Pascal, 
Mr.  Bryant. 

Miss  Pascal 

Where  did  you  go  from  Maryland? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Long  Island,  N.  Y. 

Miss  Pascal.  Was  that  for  potatoes? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Nothing  but  potatoes  up  there. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  did  that  season  last? 

Mr.  Bryant.  I  got  there  the  first  of  September,  and  it  lasted 
September  and  October  and  I  left  there  November. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  came  back  down  here? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  go  up  with  a  group  of  other  people? 

Mr.  Bryant.  I  went  in  my  own  conveyance,  an  automobile  of  my 
own,  just  me  and  my  family. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  know  where  the  crops  were  ready? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Just  by  talking  to  people.  I  just  followed  another 
truck  that  had  been  up  there.  He  had  a  crew  with  him  and  I  followed 
behind  him  because  he  had  been  before  and  I  never  had,  just  went 
along  behind  him. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  are  planning  to  go  back  up  north  again? 

Mr.  Bryant.  That's  what  I  am  planning. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  you  still  have  your  car?     How  are  your  tires? 

Mr.  Bryant.  They  ain't  so  hot. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  you  will  be  able  to  make  it  on  those 

Mr.  Bryant.  I  don't  think  so  but  I  am  figuring  on  trying.  They 
are  mighty  weak. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  guess  you  have  to  go  over  some  bad  roads,  back  and 
forth  to  the  fields? 


Mr.  Bryant.  Yes.  It  is  rough.  I  use  my  car  lots  of  times  going 
back  and  forth  home  from  work,  carrying  folks  every  day  going  to  my 
work  and  back  to  my  home. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  do  your  earnings  compare  up  there  and  down 

Mr.  Bryant.  They  pay  better  wages  up  there  than  down  here. 
They  furnish  a  lot  of  work.     They  work  every  day  up  there. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  is  the  celery  work  down  here? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Celery  work  is  pretty  good  but  it  gives  out. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  there  any  crops  down  here  that  give  you  more 
regular  work  than  celery? 

Mr.  Bryant.  No,  ma'am;  no  more  crops  no  more  regular.  Celery 
is  about  the  most  regular.  All  of  it  gives  out  about  the  same  time, 
cabbage,  celery,  and  beans,  then  there  won't  be  anything  much  to  do 
but  day  work  and  not  much  to  that.  Of  course,  men  can  probably 
get  that  work  but  family  would  set  down  with  nothing  to  do  but 
all  can  work. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  sort  of  work  do  you  do  in  celery? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Pack  celery. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  work  does  your  family  do? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Strip  celery.  They  have  strippers,  you  know — 
cutters,  strippers,  and  then  packers.  They  use  the  lady  folks  for  the 
stripping,  stripping  the  dead  leaves  off,  and  use  the  men  folks  for  cut- 
ting down  and  the  men  for  packing  it  in  boxes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  do  the  crews  work? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Some  work  by  day  and  some  by  piece  work.  Work- 
ing in  celery  is  piece  work.  Cabbage  is  piece  work,  and  then  extra 
men  to  do  day  work. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  people  are  there  in  one  of  those  celery 
harvesting  crews? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Eight  packers,  twelve  strippers,  six  cutters.  Now 
tins  is  out  in  the  field  harvesting.  But  they  have  a  crew  in  the  wash 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  is  the  cutting  done? 

Mr.  Bryant.  With  a  knife. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  they  use  any  machinery  in  harvesting  celery? 

Mr.  Bryant.  No,  ma'am,  Mr.  Haney  don't.  The  men  folks,  he 
started  with  6  but  he  has  increased  2  more  so  now  he  has  8  cutters, 
but  he  used  to  use  6  and  used  12  strippers.  The  cutters  bend  over, 
leans  the  celery  to  one  side  and  cuts  it  off  just  above  the  ground, 
even  with  the  ground.  Then  the  strippers  come  along,  pull  the  dead 
leaves  and  pile  it  in  piles,  and  the  packers  come  around  and  pack  it 
in  boxes,  the  men,  8  packers,  and  from  there  they  take  it  over  to  the 
wash  house  and  they  pack  it  over  there,  wash  it. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  are  these  harvesting  crews  paid? 

Mr.  Bryant.  They  pay  6  cents  a  box.  That  is,  the  entire  crew, 
men,  ladies,  and  all,  get  the  same  thing.     It  pays  6  cents  a  box. 

Mr.  Tipton.  The  crew  is  paid  6  cents  for  each  box  that  is  harvested? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes;  that's  right. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  work  for  Mr.  Haney  last  year,  too?  Did 
they  use  this  system  of  harvesting  last  year? 

Mr.  Bryant.  No;  they  paid  by  day  last  year. 



Mr.  Tipton.  How  do  you  find  your  earnings  compare  with  last 

Mr.  Bryant.  A  little  bit  better. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Why? 

Mr.  Bryant.  It  makes  a  little  more  money  by  paying  by  the  box. 
You  start  off  with  $1.75,  raised  it  to  $2  last  season.  This  year  he 
started  new  all  the  way.  Six  cents  a  box  to  start  with.  We  didn't 
work  in  the  celery  at  all  by  the  day,  just  started  at  6  cents  a  box. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  much  have  you  been  able  to  make? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Anywhere  from  $12  to  $14  a  week,  5  and  6  days. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  you  have  made  25  or  50  cents  a  day  more 
this  year  than  last  year? 

Mr.  Bryant.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  boxes  of  celery  can  this  crew  harvest  on  a 
good  day? 

Mr.  Bryant.  They  should  harvest  a  couple  of  thousand,  a  good 
day's  run. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  like  this  method  of  payment  better  than  the 
day  method? 

Mr.  Bryant.  It  makes  more  by  the  piece  work. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  there  any  advantage  to  Mr.  Haney  paying  you 
this  way  rather  than  by  the  day? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes,  ma'am.  He  gets  more  work  done.  A  person 
working  piece  work,  he  is  going  to  move  faster,  for  the  more  you  work 
the  more  you  get. 

Miss  Pascal.  I  suppose  that  if  there  happens  to  be  someone  in 
the  gang  who  doesn't  keep  up,  the  rest  of  the  crew  will  push  him  a 
little  bit? 

Mr.  Bryant.  Yes;  that's  true.  Working  right  together  and  pulling 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  if  everybody  doesn't  pull  together  that  lowers 
the  earnings  of  the  whole  crew? 

Mr.  Bryant.  That's  right.     Absolutely  right. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you  for  this  information. 

'  FLA.,  APRIL  25,  1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  your  name  and  address  for  the  record? 
Mr.  Sanders.  C.  A.  Sanders,  Belle  Glade,  Fla.,  Box  702. 
Mr.  Tipton.  Where  is  your  permanent  home? 
Mr.  Sanders.  Michigan.     Baroda,  Mich. 
Mr.  Tipton.  Where  is  that? 
Mr.  Sanders.  In  Berrien  County. 
Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  have  you  been  down  here? 
Mr.  Sanders.  We  come  down  here  every  season.     We  got  here  this 
year  on  the  12th  of  October. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  seasons  have  you  been  coming  down  here? 
Mr.  Sanders.  Five. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Those  were  five  straight  seasons  beginning  in  1937? 
Air.  Sanders.  Yes. 


Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  do  in  Michigan? 

Mr.  Sanders.  We  pack  fruit. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  harvest  and  pack? 

Mr.  Sanders.  We  just  pack. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Peaches? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Peaches,  all  kinds  of  tree  fruit  and  berries. 

Mr.  Tipton.  During  what  months  are  you  busy  up  there? 

Mr.  Sanders.  In  June,  July,  August,  and  September. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  down  here? 

Mr.  Sanders.  From  October  until  May.  We  leave  now  about  the 
15th  of  this  coming  May. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  will  you  go  directly  to  Berrien  County? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  For  whom  do  you  work  in  Berrien  County  The  same 
person  every  year? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Yes,  sir.  We  never  go  anywhere  except  the  same 
place.     Frank  Rick. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  work  for  the  same  people  down  here  every 

Mr.  Sanders.  The  same  place  all  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  don't  stop  to  work  any  place  either  going  up  or 
coming  down? 

Mr.  Sanders.  No. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then  it  is  approximately  half  the  year  in  Berrien 
County  and  half  here? 

Mr.  Sanders.  We  have  4  months  in  Berrien  County  and  the 
balance  of  the  time  here. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  you  consider  Berrien  County  your  permanent 

Mr.  Sanders.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  any  property  or  home  up  there? 

Mr.  Sanders.  No. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  do  you  stay  when  you  are  up  there? 

Mr.  Sanders.  This  man  that  we  work  for.  We  have  our  own 
house.  It  is  his  house  but  it  is  furnished  and  when  we  get  ready  to 
leave  we  lock  the  house  and  come  clown  here. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  are  in  your  family? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Two.     Just  my  wife  and  myself. 


Miss  Pascal.  She  works  in  the  packing  house  both  here  and  there? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  have  you  found  the  work  down  here  in  Florida 
this  season? 

Mr.  Sanders.  It  has  been  a  better  season  than  we  have  ever  had 
down  here. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Better  because  it  is  steadier  this  year  or  better  pay? 

Mr.  Sanders.  The  pay  is  the  same  as  last  year  but  there  has  been 
more  work. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  because  of  better  crops  or  fewer  people? 

Mr.  Sanders.  I  don't  know  if  the  crops  are  any  better  or  not  but  it 
seems  like  we  have  just  had  better  times.  We  have  put  in  more 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  was  the  season  last  year  in  Berrien  County? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Fine. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  you  originally  from  Michigan? 

Mr.  Sanders.  No;  originally  from  Texas. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Michigan? 

Mr.  Sanders.  We  have  been  there  7  years. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  you  went  up  there  and  went  to  work  immediately 
for  Mr.  Rick,  and  you  worked  for  him  up  there  for  seven  seasons? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  have  your  own  car? 

Mr.  Sanders.  We  don't  drive  a  car. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  do  you  get  back  and  forth? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Train  or  bus.  We  find  it  just  about  as  cheap  as  to 
operate  our  own  car.  How  come  me  following  the  season,  I  used  to 
work  inside  all  the  time,  but  I  got  down  in  health  and  everybody  said 
if  I  could  get  out  awhile  and  I  found  I  feel  much  better  since  I  have 
been  working  out  on  the  outside. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  did  you  do  in  Texas — before  you  went  to  Michi- 

Mr.  Sanders.  We  moved  from  Texas  up  into  Arkansas  and  I  went 
to  work  for  the  railroad  company  and  then  after  I  quit  the  railroad 
company  I  went  to  work  in  a  grocery  store  so  I  have  been  working 
inside  all  of  the  time  except  the  last  7  years. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  done  any  farming? 

Mr.  Sanders.  No  farming. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  there  many  people  whom  you  know  down  here 
in  south  Florida  who  go  up  to  Michigan?  Do  many  make  the  same 
round  trip? 

Mr.  Sanders.  There  are  not  so  many  that  go  to  Michigan  or  the 
Middle  West.  They  usually  follow  the  east  coast.  So  many  people 
follow  the  east  coast,  but  to  go  west  or  the  Middle  West  there  are  not 
so  many  people  that  go. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  know  any  others  who  go  back  and  forth  be- 
tween Berrien  County  and  Florida? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Well,  no;  I  don't  know  that  I  do  right  now. 
Miss  Pascal.  How  about  to  Ohio? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Yes,  there  are  people  here  that  go  to  Ohio.  There 
is  one  family  that  goes  to  Hartford,  Mich. 

Miss  Pascal.  But  as  a  general  thing  most  of  the  people  following 
crops  around  here  go  up  the  east  coast? 

Mr.  Sanders.  Yes.  The  first  thing  is  strawberries,  then  raspber- 
ries, and  then  the  tree  fruit,  apples  and  peaches  and  cherries  and  such 
as  that. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  are  speaking  now  of  the  east  coast? 
Mr.  Sanders.  Yes;  of  the  east  coast,  and  now  in  Michigan  about 
the  same  thing  will  apply  up  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  get  work  in  cherries  in  Michigan  or  are  you 
too  late? 

Mr.  Sanders.  I  tell  you,  we  work  for  this  man  Rick  and  he  owns  a 
cold  storage  in  Chicago  and  he  doesn't  have  many  cherries,  but  he  has 
strawberries  and  he  has  raspberries  and  all  kinds  of  tree  Iruit.  He 
is  the  largest  all-round  grower  in  Berrien  County  and  the  second 
largest  tree  fruit  grower  but  he  is  the  largest  berry  grower.  He  grows 
berries,  peppers,  eggplant.  We  pack  everything. 
Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Sanders. 


APRIL  27,  1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  please  give  us  your  name  and  address? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Ruth  S.  Wedgworth,  Belle  Glade. 

Miss  Pascal.  Would  you  tell  us  something  about  your  business? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Starting  with  the  farms,  we  have  1,870  acres, 
of  which  we  farm  the  largest  share,  and  rent  some.  We  have  a 
packing  house  from  which  we  ship  more  than  400,000  packages  a 
year.  We  pack  our  own  produce  and  for  a  number  of  other  growers. 
Then,  we  have  the  fertilizer  plant  in  which  we  mix  some  2,000  tons 
of  mixed  fertilizer  a  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  think  it  might  be  well  for  the  record  to  ask  you 
just  what  your  position  is  with  regard  to  your  whole  operation  here. 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  operate  the  farms  personally.  The  packing 
plant  and  fertilizer  plant  are  in  the  H.  H.  Wedgworth  estate,  of 
which  I  am  coadministrator  and  manager. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  crops  do  you  grow  principally? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  grow  principally  celery  and  potatoes,  and, 
of  course,  there  is  cabbage  and  escarole  and  lettuce.  There  are 
others,  but  those  are  the  principal  ones. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  grow  any  beans? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No,  I  don't. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  have  all  the  facilities  here  for  washing  and 
precooling  your  celery? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  we  make  our  own  electricity  and  ice,  as 
well  as  the  refrigeration. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  suppose  you  process  celery  for  other  people? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  we  process  more  for  other  people  than  we 
do  for  ourselves. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  how  many  acres  of  celery  do  you  grow? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  This  year  we  have  right  close  to  250  acres. 
For  the  last  3  years  previous  to  this  year  we  have  had  right  around 
200,  due  to  the  fact  that  I  was  the  only  one  here  in  the  Glades  that 
was  able  to  conform  to  the  Soil  Conservation  program.  I  had 
enough  history  so  that  I  could  afford  to  conform. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  how  many  acres  of  potatoes  do  you  have? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  have  500  this  year.  This  is  also  a  little 
bit  more  than  we  have  formerly  grown.  We  have  grown  between 
300  and  500  for  the  last  few  years. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  these  new  potatoes? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes.  It  is  the  Red  Bliss.  We  have  two 
crops  of  those.     We  had  500  last  fall  and  this  spring  80  acres. 

Miss  Pascal.  These  potatoes  have  to  be  washed  before  they  are 
shipped,  don't  they? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  wash  potatoes  for  other  people? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes,  we  do. 

Miss  Pascal.  I  wonder  if  you  could  give  us  some  idea,  Mrs.  Wedg- 
worth, of  the  number  of  acres  of  potatoes  and  celery  necessary  to 
make  it  possible  to  maintain  your  own  washing  and  precooling 
equipment  profitably. 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  That's  hard  to  say.  Some  people  maintain 
their  own  grading  equipment  for  much  smaller  acreage  than  others, 


and  I  have  no  way  of  knowing  whether  they  are  doing  it  profitably 
or  not.  We  have  always  had  our  own  grading  equipment  from  the 
beginning  of  our  farm  and  we  usually  are  able  to  operate  it  profitably. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  what  is  the  smallest  acreage  required  by  the 
farmers  who  have  their  own  potato  grading  and  washing  equipment? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  believe  there  is  only  one  farmer  who  grades 
and  packs  his  own,  who  has  a  small  acreage,  and  that  is  Mr.  Haney. 
I  believe  he  had  80  acres  this  fall,  although  I  am  not  sure. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  celery? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  This  will  apply  to  the  others.  Raoul  &  Haney 
grew  around  150  to  200  acres  of  celery.     I  am  not  sure  about  that. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  have  you  been  down  here  in  the  Glades, 
Mrs.  Wedgworth? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  came  to  Belle  Glade  in  April  1930,  from 
Michigan  State  College. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  were  you  and  Mr.  Wedgworth  at  Michigan 
State  College? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  were  there  from  December  1928  until  April 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  had  you  been  before  that? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Previous  to  that  time,  Mr.  Wedgworth  had 
been  connected  with  the  Mississippi  Experiment  Station  and  also  had 
taken  graduate  work  at  Michigan  State  and  Cornell  University.  He 
lacked  just  1  year  of  having  his  Ph.  D.  degree. 

effect  of  soil  on  beans 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  do  any  farming  at  all  before  you  began  here? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No.  Mr.  Wedgworth  was  brought  up  on  a 
farm  in  Mississippi  and  that  was  where  his  love  of  farming  came  from, 
I  guess.  My  husband  came  as  plant  pathologist  to  the  Everglades 
experiment  station.  The  specific  problem  he  came  to  work  on  was 
the  yellowing  of  beans,  which  was  supposed  at  that  time  to  have  been 
a  disease.  Through  the  experiments  he  found  it  wasn't  a  disease  but 
a  lack  of  manganese  in  the  soils,  which  has  become  a  very  valuable 
discovery  for  the  farmers  and  really  made  the  sawgrass  land  avail- 
able for  beans,  which  it  hadn't  been  up  to  that  time.  Then,  I  guess 
the  real  reason  that  we  left  the  experiment  station  and  started  farm- 
ing was  that  he  had  a  half  acre  of  celery  in  one  of  the  experiments 
which  he  harvested  and  auctioned  here  on  the  track  for  close  to  $900. 
He  had  always  wanted  to  farm  before  and  he  just  couldn't  wait  to 
get  started  then.  So,  in  1932,  he  severed  his  connection  with  the 
experiment  station.  We  had  planned  to  farm  on  the  side  and  I  was 
to  look  after  the  farming  during  the  day  and  he  after  office  hours, 
but  the  director  objected  to  having  an  outside  project,  so  we  started 
farming  in  1932.  The  first  year  we  went  just  as  flat  broke  as  possible. 
We  really  learned  a  lot  then.  That  was  the  only  year  which  hasn't 
been  profitable.  We  started  next  year  and  had  a  fairly  profitable 
season.  We  got  a  Federal  land-bank  loan  and  a  regional  agricultural 
credit  loan. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  that  what  corresponded  to  the  Production  Credit 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes.  And  ever  since  then  our  operating  capital 
has  been  from  the  production  credit  loans.  Mr.  Wedgworth  was  a 
director  in  the  Miami  Production  Credit  Association. 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  acres  did  you  farm  that  first  year? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  had  80  acres  of  celery.  We  looked  through 
all  the  records  and  we  thought  that  was  an  absolutely  sure  thing. 
We  thought  we  couldn't  fail  on  that.  Mr.  Wedgworth  had  started 
growing  celery  at  the  experiment  station  in  the  spring  of  1930.  He 
had  made  some  seed  beds  to  study  the  damp-off  of  the  celery  plants. 

Miss  Pascal.  When  you  started,  you  were  about  the  first  celery 
farmers  down  there? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Brown  farm  had  grown  celery  previous  to  that 
but  through  one  reason  or  another  had  not  made  a  success  of  it. 

Mr.  Tipton.  They  were  way  out  in  the  sawgrass,  weren't  they? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes. 


Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  process  your  celery  for  marketing  in  those 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  The  first  year  we  started  out,  we  placed  directly 
on  the  ground  some  old  railroad  crossties  and  laid  planks  on  them  and 
bought  an  old  celery  chain  from  Brown  farm.  With  no  roof  over  it 
at  all,  right  out  in  the  wide  open,  we  started  packing  celery. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  precool  it? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No;  at  that  time  we  had  no  precooling  facilities 
and  we  really  had  to  fight  to  make  the  market  believe  that  we  could 
grow  celery  down  here.  This  celery  was  discriminated  against  badly. 
We  had  no  buyers  here,  which  put  us  to  a  big  disadvantage.  If  you 
recall,  that's  the  year  the  banks  all  closed  their  doors.  We  operated 
until  1935  without  a  precooler,  merely  top-icing,  which  was  very 
unsatisfactory.  We  also  tried  to  precool  with  the  portable  fans 
which  blew  air  over  the  ice  and  through  the  car  but  which  was  very 

Miss  Pascal.  At  that  time  were  celery  growers  in  Sanford  and 
Sarasota  using  precoolers? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  and  we  realized  that  we  had  to  have  a 
precooler,  but  just  getting  started  we  weren't  able  to  until  1935. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  by  that  time  the  acreage  had  expanded  enough 
so  you  could  put  up  a  precooler? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  So  we  started  in.  Mr.  Wedgworth  built  this 
packing  house  himself  and  put  in  precooling  which,  of  course,  was 
much  simpler  than  the  precooling  that  we  have  at  this  time.  This 
last  June  we  added  to  it  considerably. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  would  like  to  ask  you,  Mrs.  Wedgworth,  about  what 
percentage  of  the  potatoes  and  the  celery  that  you  pack  and  precool 
is  your  own  and  what  percentage  is  custom  work? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  It  varies  considerably  from  year  to  year.  This 
year,  I  don't  know,  and  from  the  records  last  year,  I  don't  recall.  I 
believe  that  last  year  possibly  half  of  the  celery  was  ours  and  the  rest, 
of  other  growers.  Last  year  and  this  year  we  are  operating  the  celery 
by  renting  chains  to  the  other  growers  and  they  do  their  own  packing 
and  we  pack  our  own.     Of  course,  we  precool  it  all. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then  you  simply  rent  your  chains  for  so  much  a 
crate,  I  suppose,  and  then  charge  so  much  a  crate  additional  for 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  There  is  no  money  to  be  had  in  grading,  and  a 
whole  lot  of  worry  and  grief  with  it  because  each  one  thinks  he  knows 


just  how  it  should  be  done  and  may  not  be  satisfied  with  results,  so 
that  it  has  worked  out  much  more  satisfactorily  to  allow  them  to 
pack  their  own.  Of  course,  they  have  to  bring  it  up  to  our  standards 
because  our  salesman  sells  it  all. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  these  sold  under  your  brand? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Partly  under  our  brand  and  partly  under  a 
brand  that  their  name  is  on  and  ours  also.  That's  mostly  due  to  the 
fact  that  we  don't  like  to  have  our  celery  compete  against  itself  in 
the  markets  and  in  some  of  the  larger  cities  there  are  two  firms  that 
we  like  to  deal  with.  That  way  we  can  have  our  celery  in  there  and 
not  have  it  competing  against  itself. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Would  you  say  that  about  50  percent  of  your  own 
and  50  percent  custom  in  celery  was  about  an  average? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No;  it  wouldn't  be  an  average  because  it 
varies  so  from  year  to  year.  Sometimes  we  won't  get  in  as  much 
and  other  growers  get  in  more,  or  there  will  be  some  disease  or  flood 
condition  that  will  reduce  one  or  the  other,  so  it  just  varies  from  year 
to  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  is  that  true  also  of  potatoes? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  very  true. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Some  years  half  of  the  produce  would  be  from  your 
own  farm  and  half  handled  on  a  custom  basis  and  some  years  the 
propor/ions  would  be  considerably  different? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes.  Usually  we  have  had  more  potatoes  be- 
cause that  has  been  one  of  our  stronger  crops,  but  this  year  we  had 
a  very  poor  crop  ourselves  and  the  other  growers  had  their  potatoes 
on  new  land,  which  came  through  in  much  better  shape  than  ours  did. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  are  the  charges  for  processing  celery  and  pre- 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  It  is  50  cents  for  celery  grading,  packing,  and 

Miss  Pascal.  And  that  includes  the  price  of  the  crate? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  charge  is  the  rental  charge  that  you  mention 
for  the  use  of  the  machinery? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No;  we  charge  ourselves,  you  see,  here  in  the 
packing  house  because  we  keep  it  a  separate  operation.  Now,  for  the 
ones  we  rent  the  belt  to,  we  charge  them  2  cents  for  rental  of  the  belt 
and  miscellaneous  service  we  render  to  them,  and  then  8  cents  for 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  then,  if  you  sell  for  them,  there  is  an  additional 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  there. is  5  cents  if  the  product  sells  below 
$2  and  10  cents  if  it  sells  above  $2. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Those  are  the  usual  arrangements  for  wash  houses? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  think  that's  quite  general  over  the  State. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  are  the  usual  charges  for  potato  grading? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  charge  29  cents  for  boxed  potatoes,  28 
cents  for  ones  in  100-pound  bags,  and  22  cents  for  50-pound  bags. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Would  you  tell  us  about  the  development  of  the  busi- 
ness since  1930  and  the  addition  of  the  fertilizer  plant? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  The  fertilizer  plant  was  built  in  1936.  At  that 
time  we  also  had  started  a  supply  house,  and  I  continued  to  operate 
it  until  1940,  at  which  time  I  sold  it  to  Broward  Grain  Supply  Co.  of 
Fort  Lauderdale. 



Miss  Pascal.  I  wonder  if  you  would  tell  us  something  about  the 
fertilizer  used  in  this  area  and  the  work  of  your  husband  in  discover- 
ing elements  that  have  to  be  added  to  the  soil  to  grow  properly  on 
the  sawgrass  land?  Could  you  tell  us  something  about  the  supple- 
ments that  have  to  be  put  into  the  soil? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  When  Mr.  Wedgworth  was  at  the  experiment 
station,  Dr.  Allison  was  in  charge  and  he  was  exceptionally  busy  with 
managing  the  station  and  Mr.  Wedgworth  helped  him  with  the  fer- 
tilizer experiments  and  became  very  familiar  with  all  of  the  fertilizers 
used  here.  So  that  when  we  started  farming  we  bought  all  of  the 
basic  goods  and  did  our  own  mixing,  and  what  the  Government  is 
now  advocating,  high-analysis  fertilizers,  we  have  always  used  and, 
when  we  started  the  fertilizer  plant,  Mr.  Wedgworth  sold  the  high- 
analysis  fertilizers  whenever  he  could,  rather  than  sell  the  low  analysis, 
because  it  seemed  so  foolish  to  ship  down  fertilizer  which  is  of  very 
little  value  to  the  soil.  I  expect  we  sell  more  high-analysis  fertilizer 
than  is  sold  in  any  other  section  of  the  State. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  this  high-analysis  fertilizer  more  suitable  to  the 
Glades  region  than  other  regions? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  don't  know  as  it  is.  I  think  other  regions 
could  use  it  just  as  well,  but  they  have  become  used  to  the  low-analysis 
fertilizers  and  so  many  farmers  don't  realize  the  value  or  what  an 
an  0-8-2  means.  Of  course,  here  we  add  manganese,  zinc,  iron,  boron, 
and  sulfur  a  great  deal  to  our  mixes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  what  formula  and  what  quantity 
fertilizer  you  use  for  celery  and  potatoes  in  your  own  operations? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  In  our  own  operations  we  use  for  celery  0-12-18, 
3  percent  manganese,  and  then  we  add  zinc  and  boron,  also  sulfur. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  have  to  add  these  elements  principally  at  the 
time  when  you  are  developing  new  land? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  They  need  to  be  added  more  at  the  time  of 
developing  new  land  because  our  soils  are  so  deficient  in  copper  and 
manganese  that  it  is  necessary. 

Miss  Pascal.  But  it  is  always  necessary  to  add  smaller  quantities 
of  the  fertilizers  each  year? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  about  what  quantities  of  this  formula 
you  would  begin  with  when  you  first  start  new  land  for  celery  and 
how  much  the  quantity  would  decline  as  time  went  on? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  In  the  beginning  from  1,500  to  2,000  pounds 
and  then,  from  that  time  on,  from  1,000  and  1,500  pounds. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  the  fertilizer  formula  for  potatoes? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  use  an  0-8-24  for  potatoes,  with  the  supple- 
mentary elements  added.  For  the  raw  sawgrass  land,  the  first  year, 
from  750  to  800  pounds  an  acre.     After  that,  around  500. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  ever  add  nitrogen  to  your  fertilizer  formula? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  do  not  add  it  to  our  formula  in  the  begin- 
ning but  add  it  as  side  dressing  if  and  when  the  crop  needs  it.  During 
times  like  we  had  last  year,  when  we  had  a  number  of  heavy  rainfalls, 
we  used  considerable  nitrogen.  This  year  it  wasn't  used  quite  as 


Mr.  Tipton.  Is  nitrogen  ever  added  to  the  formula  for  anything 
besides  celery? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Some  farmers  use  some  nitrogen.  We  ourselves 
do  not. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  would  they  use  the  nitrogen  for,  in  addition  to 
celery,  everything  or  just 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  They  will  use  it  for  peppers.  I  don't  recall 
what  other  crops  we  have  sold  it  for.  We  sell  some  fertilizers  that 
go  to  the  sand  lands  and,  of  course,  in  that  case  nitrogen  is  necessary. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  what  the  formula  for  beans  on  sand 
lands  should  be? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  have  sold  a  4-7-5  for  beans  on  the  sand 

Mr-.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  approximately  the  price  of  0-12-18 
for  celery  and  for  the  potato  formula  which  was  0-8-24? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  0-12-18  we  charge  $20.90  per  ton.  Then  to 
that  is  added  the  cost  of  the  supplementary  elements,  which  vary 
considerably.  The  cost  of  them  varies  as  they  are  continuously 
getting  price  changes.  Of  course,  now  a  ceiling  has  been  established, 
and  there  is  not  the  price  change  that  there  was.  Maybe  in  one  field 
we  will  add  more  of  the  supplements  and  in  the  other  field  less,  so  there 
is  no  established  price.  One  farmer  may  think  he  wants  50  pounds 
of  zinc  and  another  one  may  want  100  pounds. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  is  zinc,  for  example,  sold  on  the  poundage  basis? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  much  does  zinc  sell  for  a  pound? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  $6.80  a  hundred. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  do  the  other  supplements  run  about  that  price? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Well,  for  the  copper  we  are  charging  $7.15  a 
hundred  and  the  mixed  form  manganese  $3.60. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  mean  by  "mixed  form"? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  The  mixed  form  is  manganese  that  is  incorpo- 
rated in  the  regular  fertilizer  mix.  We  also  sell  manganese  which  is 
dissolved  in  the  sprays  and  is  sprayed  onto  the  plants. 

In  the  season  of  1937  we  realized  that  we  had  to  have  a  better 
precooler  and  that,  due  to  the  excessive  cost  of  our  electricity,  we 
needed  to  generate  our  own  electricity.  So  Mr.  Wedgworth  drew  up 
plans  and  started  to  increase  our  facilities,  adding  2  Fairbanks-Morse 
Diesel  engines  with  the  necessary  generators  and  compressors.  He 
also  bought  a  York  flake  ice  machine.  It  was  during  the  installation 
of  this  machine  that  the  accident  occurred  which  later  resulted  in  Mr. 
Wedgworth's  death  on  October  10,  1938.  At  that  time  I  took  active 
charge.  I  had  been  here  at  the  office  a  week  before  that.  Mr.  Wedg- 
worth had  been  in  Washington  attending  some  of  the  soil  conservation 
program  meetings,  so  then  I  took  up  from  that  point  and  have  been  in 
charge  now  during  the  last  few  years.  This  last  year  we  have  added 
to  our  packing  house  considerably,  which  makes  for  much  easier 
operation.  We  have  installed  the  conveyor  chains,  increased  our 
precooling  from  an  8-crate-wide  precooler  to  a  15-crate-wide  precooler. 


Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  found  that  you  have  had  an  adequate 
supply  of  labor  on  the  farm  and  in  your  packing  house  operations 
this  year? 


Mrs.  Wedgworth.  At  times  we  have  been  very  short,  and  we  have 
our  own  quarters  for  the  colored  laborers  so  that  we  have  been  in  better 
position  than  the  average  grower  this  year,  I  believe.  But  right  now 
we  have  a  shortage  in  help  for  the  packing  house  and  today  are  going 
to  35  cents  an  hour,  winch  will  increase  our  pay  rolls  around  $500 
a  week,  and  with  the  price  of  celery 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  ever  had  a  shortage  of  packing  house  labor 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Temporary  shortages  at  times. 


Miss  Pascal.  I  understand  that  the  price  has  been  pretty  generally 
30  cents  over  a  large  number  of  years  and  has  gone  up  to  35  cents  in 
Glades  packing  houses  just  this  week.  Why  have  the  packing  houses 
made  this  change? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  went  to  30  cents  an  hour  at  the  time  the 
Government  started  this  wage-and-hour  law.  Up  to  that  time  it 
had  been,  I  believe,  20  cents  earlier,  then  25,  and  then  we  went  to 
30  cents.  That  year  that  we  paid  25  cents  we  really  didn't  come  under 
the  wage-and-hour  law.  Then  the  next  year  we  came  under  it  and 
paid  30  cents,  and  this  advance  to  35  cents  isn't  an  enforced  advance 
frpm  the  Government  but  trying  to  meet  the  other  labor  prices  and  the 
increased  cost  of  living  for  the  laborers. 

Miss  Pascal.  Has  this  shortage  at  the  present  time  been  due  to 
laborers  leaving  the  area  earlier  than  usual? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  and  I'm  in  hopes  that  it  will  bring  in  some 
from  other  parts,  too.  We  have  lost  a  number  to  the  Army  and  then, 
on  account  of  the  men  leaving,  the  women  have  also  left.  Then  right 
at  this  time,  I  believe,  a  lot  of  our  shortage  is  due  to  the  unsettled 
conditions  about  the  gas  shortage.  They  want  to  either  get  back 
home  or  get  up  to  the  country  where  the  next  job  is  starting.  If  we 
could  have  had  some  statement  to  assure  them  of  gasoline  later  on, 
I  think  it  would  relieve  our  situation. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  feel  that  is  an  important  factor? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes.  I  know  we  have  lost  a  number  of  laborers 
on  that  account  and  some  of  our  very  best  ones.  We  have  several 
who  have  little  farms  in  Georgia.  They  work  them  in  the  summer- 
time and  come  down  here  in  the  fall  and  they  were  very  anxious  to  get 
back  home 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  those  the  white  help  that  you  are  speaking  of  now? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  the  white  help.  The  nucleus  for  our  farm 
help  we  keep  all  summer  long  and  Mr.  Wedgworth  was  always  of  the 
opinion  it  was  better  not  to  pay  peak  wages  but  to  furnish  year-round 
work  as  much  as  possible,  so  in  the  summertime  we  hunt  jobs  to  keep 
our  men  busy. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  how  many  people  are  you  able  to  keep  on 
during  the  summer? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  will  have  around  50  on  the  pay  roll  during 
the  summer. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  about  what  is  your  pay  roll  during  the  winter? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  It  will  be  around  200  a  good  lot  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That's  200  on  a  weekly  basis — these  are  all  colored 
we  are  speaking  of  now? 


Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then,  in  addition,  at  peak  harvest  time  you  have  to 
hire  by  the  day?  '  , 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes.  Of  course  all  of  them  are  paid  by  the 
day  or  by  the  hour. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  when  you  hire  extras  for  purely  harvesting  opera- 
tions, are  they  paid  at  the  end  of  the  day,  or,  as  the  others  are,  at  the 
end  of  the  week?  g 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  According  to  what  they  are  doing  and  whether 
they  are  going  to  be  staying.  If  they  intend  to  work  on  through  the 
week,  we  will  wait  until  Saturday  night,  usually  with  some  advances 
to  them.  But  if  it  is  in  harvesting  potatoes,  they  are  paid  each  night. 
We  work  that  somewhat  similar  to  the. bean  picking.  We  pay  by 
the  crate  and  they  receive  a  ticket  for  each  crate  and,  if  they  have  a 
ticket,  they  want  that  paid  off  each  night. 

Miss  Pascal.  Mrs.  Wedgworth,  how  many  of  your  field  help  do 
you  have  living  in  quarters  here? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  We  can  accommodate  close  to  100. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  is  a  hundred  workers? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  it  would  be  right  at  a  hundred  workers. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then,  some  of  them,  I  suppose,  have  families? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Single  men,  or  if  they  have  children  they  leave 
them  with  the  grandmothers  in  Georgia  or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  the  wives  that  come  along  down  here — do  they 
work  along  with  the  men? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Most  of  them  do. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  you  employ  the  rest  of  the  people  from  the 
Negro  quarters  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  and  some  from  the  migratory  camp. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  any  of  your  white  workers  in  the  packing  house 
live  in  the  white  migratory  camp? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  The  largest  share  of  them  do. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  your  opinion  of  these  migratory  camps? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  feel  myself  that  it  has  been  a  real  benefit  to 
the  workers.  It  is  peculiar  though,  if  we  would  allow  them  to  come 
and  camp  out  here,  as  they  did  before  the  migratory  camp  was  estab- 
lished, a  number  of  them  would  be  right  back  here  living  in  the  little 
tar  paper  shacks. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  do  you  account  for  that? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  The  American  characteristic  of  doing  what 
they  want  to  do  and  being  an  individual,  I  guess.  That  little  tar- 
paper  shack  was  theirs. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Would  you  say  that  was  true  of  both  the  white  and  the 
colored  camps? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  don't  know  as  to  the  colored  camp  because 
we  never  have  allowed  them  to  live  just  any  way  on  the  farm.  The 
ones  that  have  lived  there  have  had  not  too  good  houses,  I  will  say, 
but  better  than  they  take  care  of.  We  tried  to  keep  the  buildings 
screened  and  we  put  in  flush  toilets  and  we  have  one  time  to  make  them 
take  care  of  it. 



Miss  Pascal.  We  have  heard  complaints  that  some  farmers  don't 
approve  of  the  Negro  camps.  They  claim  that  the  management  lets 
the  workers  sit  around  the  camp,  instead  of  making  them  get  out  and 
work.     Do  you  think  there  is  any  truth  in  that? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  am  afraid  there  is  some  truth  to  that.  Never- 
theless there  is  something,  I  believe  it  is  the  higher  wages,  that  is 
upsetting  the  colored  help  all  over  the  section.  I  was  talking  to  the 
personnel  director  of  the  sugar  company  at  Clewiston  and  he  said  their 
workers  were  working  on  an  average  of  4  days  a  week  in  their  own 
camps.  If  they  make  more  a  day,  they  are  going  to  work  fewer  days  a 

It  is  just  a  peculiar  situation  with  them,  but  I  feel,  along  with  a 
number  of  the  other  growers,  that  possibly  they  are  being  given  too 
much.  Something  that  has  had  a  big  effect  on  the  Negroes  is  this 
surplus  commodities.  We  have  had  a  number  of  them  want  to  stop 
work  to  go  up  and  get  then*  "little  groceries."  They  will  quit  work 
that  day  to  go  stand  in  line  and  get  the  surplus  commodities.  We 
owe  it  to  the  workers  to  give  them  good  living  conditions  but,  on  the 
other  hand,  we  have  got  to  make  them  pay  for  what  they  get  so  they 
will  be  better  citizens. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  would  like  to  ask,  in  that  connection,  whether  you 
believe  that  these  observations,  which  you  have  made  with  regard  to 
the  colored  camp  and  the  colored  people,  would  apply  to  the  white 
camps  and  the  white  workers? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  don't  think  that  applies  to  the  white  camps. 
They  always  seem  anxious  to  work  and  have  a  different  disposition 
toward  the  work,  so  that  the  ones  who  are  in  the  white  camp  are  really 
good  laborers.  I  feel  that  the  white  camp  should  be  self-supporting 
because  there  are  people  here  who  rent  buildings,  houses  for  them  to 
live  in,  and  I  don't  feel  that  it  is  best  for  them  to  be  given  too  much — 
just  from  a  citizenship  standpoint.  They  should  feel  that  they  are 
paying  for  what  they  get  and  I  think  that  is  what  they  want  to  do 
because  the  most  of  them  are  very  self-respecting  people.  At  the  time 
the  investigations  were  being  made,  it  was  interesting,  the  comments 
that  they  made.  They  very  much  resented  people  coming  and  look- 
ing at  their  tents  and  commenting  on  conditions  they  lived  under, 
because  they  were  living  just  as  clean  as  most  of  the  people  over  here 
in  town.  I  only  know  of  one  little  tent  out  here  that  was  filthy.  The 
people  had  plenty  of  water.  They  had  sufficient  toilet  facilities  here, 
not  according  to  governmental  regulations,  on  account  of  distances 
like  that,  and  it  was  a  duplication  from  the  packing  house,  but  they 
kept  very  tidy  places  with  what  they  had  to  do  with. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  had  occasion  this  year  to  make  use  of  the 
services  of  the  farm  placement  interviewer  who  has  been  placed  in  the 
area  by  the  United  States  Employment  Service? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  have  talked  with  him  on  several  occasions  but 
I  have  not  used  the  Service  directly. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  haven't  placed  an  application  for  workers  with 


Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No;  I  haven't. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  that  in  the  coming  year  in  which,  as  I 
recall,  you  expressed  some  fear  of  labor  shortage  that  the  United 
States  Employment  Service  will  be  able  to  help  solve  any  possible 
shortage  problems  that  may  arise? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes;  we  hope  they  will,  although  their  idea  of 
pooling  labor  isn't  practical  for  this  section.  We  are  all  too  large 
operators.  I  can  see  where  in  some  sections  it  might  work  out  but — ■ 
maybe  I  don't  understand  just  the  way  they  plan  to  do  it — but  from 
my  understanding  so  far,  I  don't  see  how  it  would  work. 

Miss  Pascal.  As  you  understand  it,  do  they  intend  to  pool  the  labor 
that  the  growers  have  in  their  own  quarters? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  I  don't  know  as  to  that. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  that  the  Employment  Service  would  be 
of  service  to  you  in  getting  labor  into  this  region  from  other  regions? 

out-of-state  recruiting 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  They  should  be  able  to  help  to  coordinate  the 
labor  from  one  section  to  another.  Each  year  we  send  up  trucks  to 
Georgia  to  bring  help  down.  We  charge  them  nothing  for  it  and 
then,  at  the  end  of  the  season,  we  give  them  a  fish  fry  or  barbecue  and 
give  them  transportation  back.  Most  of  them  have  little  farms  up 
there  or  something  like  that.  This  last  fall  we  sent  a  truck,  up  and  I 
had  an  awful  time  getting  it  released  up  there.  At  that  time  the 
State  employment  bureau  wasn't  in  connection  with  the  United  States 
Employment  Service.  Then,  the  next  time  I  wired  up  there  first,  to 
see  that  the  truck  would  be  released  and  they  sent  word  back  that 
there  was  no  help  available.  We  knew  that  a  number  of  the  wives 
of  men  that  were  already  down  here  and  friends  were  there  waiting, 
wanting  to  come.  So  I  called  the  man  in  charge  of  the  State  employ- 
ment agency,  a  Mr.  A.  U.  Hogan,  and  he  told  me  that  the  farmers 
there  didn't  like  the  idea  of  us  coming  up  there  for  the  laborers.  We 
knew  there  was  not  much  work  there  and  the  part  I  didn't  like — we 
have  always  sent  a  very  trusted  colored  man  with  our  truck — was 
that  he  told  me  that  he  would  advise  me  not  to  send  a  truck  up  there, 
if  we  did  there  was  something  going  to  happen  to  the  driver.  That 
made  me  mad  and  I  said,  if  I  sent  the  driver  up  there  that  certainly,  if 
anything  happened  to  the  driver,  he  would  have  me  to  account  to 
and  not  the  colored  driver.  Nevertheless,  as  long  as  there  was  that 
strong  sentiment,  we  thought  best  to  not  send  as  good  a  man  as  we 
had  been  sending  up  there  or  he  might  get  in  some  trouble.  But  it 
seems  when  laborers  are  not  being  needed  in  one  section  and  they  are 
needed  in  another  and  are  anxious  to  come,  they  should  be  allowed 
to  come. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  run  into  experience  of  this  kind  before? 

Mrs.  W^edgworth.  Only  in  having  difficulty  in  getting  the  truck 
released.  We  always  have  sent  a  letter  with  the  truck  driver  to  the 
one  in  charge,  either  the  chief  of  police  or  the  State  employment 
agency,  and  had  our  driver  go  direct  there  so  that  he  wouldn't  just  be 
going  in  and  gathering  them  up  with  no  authority  at  all.  The  time 
before  this,  we  exchanged  6  or  8  telegrams  and  it  finally  took  two 
long-distance  calls,  if  I  recall,  to  get  the  truck  released.  The  workers 
were  ready  to  come  and  the  authorities  wouldn't  allow  them  to  come. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Then  you  say  the  workers  were  released  through  the 
Employment  Service  there? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  Yes.  It  was  release  of  the  workers.  This  was 
in  Dublin,  Ga. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  ever  had  any  difficulty  after  trucks  have 
been  loaded  and  started  back  down  here? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No;  because  they  are  never  allowed  to  start 
unless  cleared  through  the  proper  channels.  We  don't  want  to  take 
the  workers  up  there  when  they  are  needed  but,  on  the  other  hand,  the 
ones  who  have  been  coming  down  here  year  after  year,  we  do  feel  that 
if  they  are  not  needed  up  there  and  we  send  a  truck  up  there  for  them 
and  give  them  transportation  down,  that  they  should  be  allowed  to 
leave,  because  when  our  season  is  over  we  immediately  send  them  back. 

Miss  Pascal.  Mrs.  Wedgworth,  have  you  ever  made  specific 
arrangements  with  employers  of  labor  in  Georgia  to  borrow  the  workers 
for  the  winter  season  and  return  them? 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No  ;  because  I  don't  know  such  growers  up  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  don't  know  of  any  growers  that  would  be  able 
to  supply  enough  workers  to  make  it  worth  while  contacting  growers 

Mrs.  Wedgworth.  No. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  know  whether  any  other  grower  has  any  such 

Mrs.  Wedgeworth.  No  ;  I  do  not.  It  is  my  understanding  that  up 
there  they  have  to  feed  a  lot  of  the  help  over  the  winter.  Of  course, 
maybe  they  like  to  do  that  in  order  to  keep  them.  Maybe  I  am 
criticizing  someone  else  for  something  we  do  ourselves  in  giving  our 
help  work  through  the  summer.  But  we  haven't  done  that  to  keep 
them,  but  it  is  our  policy  of  thinking  it  is  better  for  them  to  have 
their  money  spread  out  during  the  year.  Of  course,  that's  during 
the  depression  years  when  there  wasn't  the  work  that  there  is  now. 

Miss  Pascal.  We  thank  you,  Mrs.  Wedgworth,  for  this  very  help- 
ful information. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  your  name  for  the  record? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  My  name  is  Johnnie  Belle  Taylor,  South  Bay,  Fla. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  live  here  in  the  camp? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Yes;  I  live  here  in  the  camp. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  the  camp? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  We  came  down  here  the  middle  of  November  of  this 
season.  Of  course,  I  keep  my  room  all  of  the  year,  and  I  was  here  last 
year,  which  makes  2  years  we  have  been  in  this  camp. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  you  have  been  in  the  same  house? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  was  in  old  20  and  18  last  season. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Those  are  the  older  corrugated-iron  houses? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Yes;  that's  right.  Last  season  we  were  there  part 
of  the  time  and  then  we  moved  around  over  here  in  G-7.  That's 
where  I  am  now. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  you  come  from  originally? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Where  I  was  born?     Talbot  County,  Ga. 

60.396— 42— pt.  33- 15 


Mr.  Tipton.  When  did  you  leave  Talbot  County? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  just  tell  you.  I  was  a  child  when  we  came  from 
there.  I  was  born  in  Talbot  County  near  Talbotton,  Ga.,  and  then 
we  came  over  in  Meriwether  County  around  Manchester,  Warm 
Springs,  out  over  there.     I  was  reared  all  up  in  that  section  in  Georgia. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then  when  did  you  first  come  to  Florida? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  came  to  Florida  in  1937. 

Mr.  Tipton.  For  the  first  time? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  have  you  been  here  in  Florida  ever  since  1937? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  We  stayed  during  the  season.  You  see,  we  came 
down  when  the  season  began  and  then  we  stays  until  about  the  1st  of 
June,  then  we  leave  here  and  go  to  Hawthorn,  all  around  Alachua  and 
Hague  and  Santa  Fe  and  we  gather  and  pack  corn  and  work  in  tobacco. 
Then  we  goes  on  further  up  in  Georgia. 

Mr.  Tipton.  May  I  stop  you  a  minute?  What  crops  do  you  gather 
in  Alachua? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  When  we  go  to  Alachua  they  have  cucumbers,  they 
have  beans,  and  they  have  these  small  limas.  We  pick  them  and  then 
we  works  in  tobacco  and  we  cut  and  pack  roasting  ears  around  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  From  there  you  go  to  Georgia?  What  do  you  do 

Mrs.  Taylor.  You  see,  when  that  season  there  is  over  the  season  is 
just  coming  in  around  Tifton  and  Moultrie,  Ga.  We  work  tobacco 
then  around  there,  first  one  thing  and  then  another,  just  what  we  can 
get  to  do  then  until  cotton  opens  and  then  we  gather  the  peanut  and 
cotton  crops. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  when  does  the  cotton  usually  begin? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Along  about  the  middle  of  August. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  do  you  work  in  cotton  and  peanuts? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Until  about  somewhere  along  about  the  1st  of 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  then  it's  time  to  come  back  to  Florida?  Is  that 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Yes;  then  we  comes  back.  Now,  this  past  season 
they  have  an  airport  going  up  around  Moultrie  and  so  I  was  looking 
up  to  haul  some  hands  to  the  airport  and  that's  why  I  was  as  late  as  I 
was  coming  down  this  time  because  I  was  hauling  hands  to  the 

Mr.  Tipton.  From  where  were  you  hauling? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  From  Moultrie — out,  I  suppose,  about  5  miles  from 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  were  just  hauling  them  back  and  forth  every 
morning  and  evening? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  have  your  own  truck? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  have  a  car. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  I  suppose  you  were  planning  to  go  back  up  to 
Alachua  pretty  soon? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  When  everything  is  over  with  here,  that's  where 
I  was  planning  on  going — from  here  to  Hawthorn,  first  picking 
Fort  Hooks,  big  limas  and  beans  and  cucumbers.  That's  what  goes 
on  around  Hawthorn. 



Miss  Pascal.  How  are  the  tires  on  your  car  this  year? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  tell  you  I  need  two  as  bad  as  anything.  I  really 
do  need  two  tires. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  you  going  to  try  to  make  the  trip  on  the  two  bad 
tires  anyway? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  was  planning  on  trying  to  see  could  I  make  some 
arrangements  or  could  I  get  two  somewhere  or  another.  Because 
you  know  it  is  a  long  ways  from  here  and  traveling  back  and  forth. 
We  have  to  get  from  here  to  there  and  when  we  get  there  some  of 
those  people  don't  have  no  way  to  take  you  out  to  those  fields  and 
you  have  to  make  some  arrangements  to  get  out  and  it  is  way  out 
kind  of  from  town,  lots  of  those  fields,  and  so  we  have  to  make  some 
arrangements  to  get  out  there  and  for  that  cause  I  had  planned  on 
trying  to  see  could  I  get  a  tire  because  we  have  to  get  them  here. 
There  is  a  bunch  of  them.  I  have  five  children  and  my  mother  and 
my  husband.  Right  now  he  is  in  Key  West  trying  to  work  down 
there,  so  he  kind  of  hated  to  leave  since  they  needed  men  so  bad  on 
the  water  line  and  all.     He  kind  of  hated  to  leave  from  there. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  has  he  been  working  down  there? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  He  has  been  working  there,  I  guess,  about  6  weeks. 

Mr.  Tipton.  If  he  wants  to  stay,  has  he  work  there  for  a  while? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Yes,  sir.     He  has  been  there  about  6  weeks. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  say  you  have  five  children  and  your  mother.  Is 
that  the  whole  family? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  of  your  children  usually  work,  either  here 
or  in  Alachua  and  up  in  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Now  there  is  two  of  my  children  too  small  to  work 
and  there  are  three  can  work,  but  my  two  little  boys  I  lets  them  go 
to  school  some  and  help  me  some  and  I  have  a  girl  going  on  17.  She 
helps  me  and  my  mother  is  sixty-odd  years  old  and  she  kinda  keeps 
the  small  ones  and  that  keeps  me  going. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  your  17-year-old  girl  helps  you,  picking  and 
so  on,  and  your  two  boys — how  old  are  they? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  One  is  12,  the  other  is  10.  They  helps  me  some, 
and  the  two  younger  ones  they  can't  do  anything,  one  is  7  and  one  6. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  the  10-  and  12-year-old  children  are  in  school 
part  of  the  time  but  the  rest  of  the  time  they  can  help? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  When  you  leave  here  and  go  up  to  Alachua  and  to 
Georgia  where  do  you  live? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  My  home  is  in  Dawson,  Ga. 

Miss  Pascal.  So  when  you  go  to  Georgia,  you  go  home? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  When  I  go  to  Georgia  I  am  going  home,  that's 
Dawson,  Ga. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  do  you  live  in  Alachua? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  In  Alachua  we  just  working  there — we  works  our 
way  on  up.     We  go  to  Hawthorn  and  just  work. 

Miss  Pascal.  For  how  long? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Well,  the  whole  thing  lasts  from  the  middle  of  May 
on,  the  whole  season,  until  the  1st  of  October.  We  will  be  working 
in  that  length  of  time  clear  on  up  to  Georgia. 


Mr.  Tipton.  You  leave  here  in  the  middle  of  May  and  work  your 
way  up,  and  by  the  1st  of  October  you  would  be  through  and  would 
be  home  in  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  That's  right.  On  the  way  back  then  in  October. 
That's  the  time  we  get  through. 

Mr.  Tipton.  From  the  time  you  leave  here  in  the  middle  of  May, 
how  long  is  it  until  you  get  to  your  home  in  Dawson? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  You  mean  go  there  to  stay?  Well,  now,  we  don't 
go  home  to  stay  any  length  of  time.  I  don't  think  I  stayed  home  last 
year  over  2  weeks. 


Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  all  that  time  has  been  spent  in  working  as  you 
go  North.  Now,  when  you  get  up  around  Hawthorn  what  kind  of 
living  accommodations  do  you  have?  Do  they  have  any  camps  like 
this  up  there? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  No,  sir.  We  just  got  to  live  in  the  house  where  the 
people  let  you  stay.  Some  have  to  sleep  in  cars  and  some  few  of  them 
have  a  little  tent  along  with  them.  Just  like  that.  We  just  have  to 
take  it  as  we  finds  it. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  any  of  the  people  you  work  for  have  quarters? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  One  man  has  quarters  there — Mr.  Johnson.  He 
runs  a  big  turpentine  still.  He  has  quarters  and  he  is  about  the  only 
man  that  has. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  whenever  you  work  for  anybody  else,  you  have 
to  take  it  as  you  find  it? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Just  like  if  he  has  enough  room,  he  let  us  stay. 
That's  the  way  we  have  to  do. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  there  any  places  to  rent  up  there? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Well,  no,  sir.  There  are  no  quarters  around  there. 
Sometimes  you  find  an  empty  house  out  on  a  man's  little  place. 
They  have  a  few  acres,  7-  or  8-acre  patches.  Not  like  down  here, 
just  small  quantities,  and  sometimes  you  have  an  empty  house. 
He  rents  that  house.  Well,  a  bunch  of  them  live  just  there  in  that 
same  house,  sometimes  three  or  four  in  the  same  room.  We  just  put 
up  with  most  anyway,  just  to  be  working,  trying  to  live. 

job  contacts 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  work  for  the  same  people  there  year  after 
year  or  just  pick  up  jobs  where  you  can  find  them?^ 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Well,  we  pick  up  jobs  mostly.  When  we  first  go  up 
there  we  have  a  man,  his  name  is  Mr.  Burton,  and  so  when  we  leave 
there  we  go  to  Alachua.  When  we  get  to  Alachua  we  works  up  there 
with  Mr.  Buster  Turner,  and  Mr.  Lindsey  Selham.  He  runs  a  big 
packing  house  and  all,  round  Hague;  Mr.  Selham  owns  around  Hague. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  usually  work  for  the  same  people? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  We  go  to  those  same  men  every  year  and  work  with 
them  and  then,  if  they  run  out,  if  anyone  else  has  anything  to  do 
around  there  we  work  with  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  work  for  the  same  men  down  here  the  way 
you  do  up  there? 


Mrs.  Taylor.  Now,  when  I  came  here  last  season  to  the  camp,  and 
every  since  1937, 1  been  working  with  Mr.  Bob  Clouch  at  Lake  Harbor 
and  Mr.  Louis  Bolton  and  Mr.  Joe  Lee  Woods.  I  have  been  working 
with  those  men  ever  since  I  came  down,  till  I  came  down  to  the  camp. 

Mr.  Tipton.  During  those  first  years,  did  you  live  in  their  quarters? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  lived  in  Mr.  Clouch's  quarters  when  I  first  came 
down  here  and  then  I  lived  in  Mr.  Woods'  and  Mr.  Bolton's  quarters 
awhile  after  that  until  I  left  them  and  come  here. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Now  that  you  are  living  in  the  camp  do  you  work  for 
them  any  more? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Well,  the  way  we  do  here  since  we  been  down  here, 
we  work  one  to  the  other.  We  work  for  Mr.  Engleman,  Mr.  Knights, 
and  Mr.  Chaney  up  here  at  Pahokee.  Mr.  Ingham  sends  a  truck  in 
here  and  also  Mr.  Knights.  He  sends  a  truck  but  we  meets  Mr. 
Chaney.  He  don't  send  a  truck.  He  lives  at  Pahokee.  Sometimes 
he  sends  a  truck  to  Belle  Glade  and  then  we  meet  him  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  usually  trjr  to  work  for  these  same  three  or 
four  men  all  the  time? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  work  for  Mr.  Chaney  all  the  time.  I  worked  with 
Mr.  Chaney  on  the  east  coast  and  so  I  worked  with  him  ever  since 
Christmas  mostly  and  also  Mr.  Peterson,  I  worked  with  him  down 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  is  that? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  That's  at  Homestead.  That's  where  they  was 
until  they  come  back  here.  Now,  he  has  been  back  here  now  about 
3  weeks  and  I  have  been  here  2  weeks  this  coming  Tuesday,  back  to 
the  camp. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  these  people  grow  both  here  and  in  Homestead? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Contracts.  Chaney  grows  here  but  contracts  in 
Homestead.  He  has  a  lot  of  trucks  and  hauls.  He  contracts  the 
fields  and  hauls  the  beans. 

Miss  Pascal.  He  goes  down  to  Homestead  in  the  midwinter  season 
when  there  are  not  many  beans  up  here,  I  suppose? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  When  things  close,  he  goes  to  Homestead  and  con- 
tracts those  fields,  picking  and  hauling,  and  then  we  work  with  him. 

Miss  Pascal.  Then  he  comes  back  here  and  grows  for  himself? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  Grows  for  himself  but  contracts  others. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  said  that  you  considered  Dawson,  Ga.,  as  your 
home,  but  that  you  usually  stayed  there  only  about  2  weeks.  Why 
do  you  consider  Dawson  your  home? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  I  bought  a  little  place  there.  I  have  a  house  on  it 
and  so  my  children's  daddy  is  there,  but  he  is  old.  He  is  not  able  to 
do  anything  very  much.  It  is  cold  up  there  so  we  come  down  in  the 
winter  and  work.  I  have  been  there  ever  since  1915,  in  Dawson,  so 
all  my  things  are  there.  I  only  keeps  a  little  to  go  on  along  with  us, 
so  I  call  that  home. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  the  father  of  your  children  keeps  your  place  for 
you  while  you  are  away? 

Mrs.  Taylor.  But  37ou  see  me  and  him,  we  are  not  together.  We 
have  been  parted  7  years,  but  still  that's  home,  all  my  things  are  there. 

Miss  Pascal.  Thank  you. 


FLA.,  APRIL  26,   1942 

Miss  Pascal.  Will  you  give. your  name  and  your  address? 
Mrs.  Jackson.  Elnore  Jackson,  Belle  Glade,  Fla. 
Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  have  a  family? 
Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  are  there  in  your  family? 
Mrs.  Jackson.  Five  of  us  in  the  family,  six  with  my  husband.     I 
have  four  children. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  I  have  been  in  Belle  Glade  since  1938. 

Mr.  Tipton.  All  of  the  time? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  stayed  right  here  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes,  sir. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  you  come  from? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Cordele,  Ga. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  did  you  do  up  in  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  I  worked,  picked  cotton  sometimes  and  worked  at 
the  hotel  sometimes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  your  husband? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  He  worked  at  the  wholesale  house. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  never  farmed  up  in  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  No,  sir;  but  I  worked  on  the  farm. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  your  husband  sometimes  worked  on  the  farm, 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  he  pick  cotton? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  have  you  been  doing  since  you  have  been  down 
here  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  I  picked  beans,  worked  in  celery,  and  wash  and 
iron  sometimes. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  do  you  do  during  the  summer  when  there  are 
no  beans  or  celery  to  be  harvested? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Wash  and  iron  sometimes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  find  that  you  can  make  out  all  right  during 
the  summer? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  does  your  husband  do,  during  the  summer? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  He  is  on  the  farm  sometimes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Can  he  find  work  during  the  summer? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  do  you  live  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  I  live  in  Mr.  Schuler's  quarters. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That's  the  quarters  at  the  end  of  the  street? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  have  there? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  I  have  a  room  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  tell  us  how  big  the  room  is? 


Mrs.  Jackson.  It  would  be  about  10  by  12. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  big  enough  for  your  family? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  It  isn't  big  enough,  but  I  have  to  make  out  with  it. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  do  you  cook? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  We  cook  in  the  same  room. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  water  in  your  room? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  do  you  get  it? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  On  the  outside. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Outside  the  building? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  sanitary  facilities?     Are  they  outside  too? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  did  you  happen  to  come  down  to  Belle  Glade? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  They  say  you  can  make  good,  and  by  coming  down 
here  we  could  do  better  than  at  home. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  found  that  was  the  case? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  are  glad  you  came  down? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  In  a  way,  I  is.  It  is  better,  but  in  other  ways  it  is 

Miss  Pascal.  In  what  way  is  it  not  better? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  We  do  not  have  it  as  convenient  as  at  home. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  mean  you  had  a  better  place  in  which  to 
live  at  home? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  They  tell  me  that  Schuler's  quarters  is  about  the  best 
place  in  Belle  Glade.     Do  you  think  it  is? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes.     It  is  about  the  best. 

Miss  Pascal.  But  you  think  you  had  a  better  place  to  live  up  in 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes;  more  room. 

Miss  Pascal.  Did  you  have  a  house  in  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  big? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  We  had  a  three-room  house. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  old  are  your  children? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  One  is  16,  the  others  12,  11,  and  7.     All  girls. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  they  help  you  during  the  picking  season? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  No,  sir.  They  don't  help  so  much.  They  do  a 
little  work  on  Saturdays,  but  they  go  to  school. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  you  planning  to  stay  in  Belle  Glade  now? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  are  not  going  to  go  back  to  Georgia? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  have  a  better  house  up  in  Georgia,  but  not  as 
much  work  up  there?     Is  that  right? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  does  your  husband  work  in  the  summertime? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  To  Mr.  Haney's. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  kind  of  work  does  he  do  for  Mr.  Haney? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  In  the  celery,  getting  beds  ready.  That  is  in  the 

Mr.  Tipton.  He  can  get  steady  work  in  the  summertime? 


Mrs.  Jackson.  No;  not  always,  but  some  days. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  he  work  for  anybody  else  but  Mr.  Haney  in  the 

Mrs.  Jackson.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  In  the  wintertime  what  does  he  do? 

Mrs.  Jackson.  He  works  out  there  harvesting  celery.  He  mostly 
drives  the  truck. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you  very  much. 

NING   CO.,    BELLE   GLADE,    FLA.,    APRIL   25,    1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  your  name,  address,  and  occupation 
for  the  record? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Samuel  H.  Rosenstock,  partner  in  the  Belle 
Glade  Canning  Co.,  Belle  Glade,  Fla. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  was  this  cannery  established,  Mr.  Rosenstock? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  started  about  the  middle  of  November  1941. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  your  building  program  all  finished  now? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Not  quite.  They  haven't  finished  the  ware- 
house yet. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  the  capacity  of  your  establishment? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  50,000  cases  of  No.  10  beans  per  week — 50,000 

Mr.  Tipton.  Over  how  long  a  season  do  you  expect  to  can? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  6  to  8  weeks  in  the  spring  and  the  same  time  in 
the  fall. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  your  total  capacity  during  a  season  would  be 
something  around  600,000  to  800,000? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  would  say  600,000  to  750,000  cases. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  canned  any  beans  yet,  Mr.  Rosenstock? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes;  we  have  canned  about  900  cases,  trying  the 
machinery  out. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  do  you  expect  to  begin  operations? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  This  coming  week. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  weeks  do  you  expect  to  operate  the 
remainder  of  this  season? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  On  this  spring  deal,  until  about  the  third  week 
in  June.     It  depends  on  the  rains. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  employees  do  you  expect  to  have  on  the 
pay  roll  when  you  begin  operating? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  When  we  are  operating  full,  we  will  have  225 
to  250. 

Miss  Pascal.  Will  those  be  white  or  colored? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  All  white.     We  expect  to  use  all  white. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  how  many  men  and  how  many  women? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  would  say  about  60  percent  women  and  40 
percent  men,  offhand. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  plan  to  get  any  of  your  labor  from  the  Farm 
Security  Administration  migratory  camp  across  the  street? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Most  of  it.     Very  likely  90  percent  of  it. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  think  you  will  be  able  to  get  enough  people 
from  the  camp? 


Mr.  Rosenstock.  The  way  I  understand  it,  we  have  priority  over 
everything  else  in  Belle  Glade  because  we  are  canning  only  for  the 


Mr.  Tipton.  That's  canning  under  Government  contract  for  th,e 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes;  for  the  Army. 

Mr.  Tipton.  All  of  your  production,  then,  will  go  to  the 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes;  to  the  Government. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  large  a  contract  do  you  have? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  have,  for  the  spring  now,  two  contracts 
totaling  250,000  cases. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  have  you  contracts  already  made  for  next  year? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  You  mean  for  the  fall?  No;  the  Army  hasn't 
contracted  ahead  that  far.  I  will  supplement  that  statement.  Out- 
side of  the  percentage  that  they  require  from  every  canner,  I  think 
26  or  28  percent,  I  am  not  sure. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  you  growing  beans  yourself  for  canning? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  No;  we  are  having  acreage  contracted  for. 

Mr.  Tipton.  About  how  many  acres? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  About  2,400  to  2,500  acres. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  is  for  this  year? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  That  is  for  the  spring  deal. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  acres  do  you  expect  to  contract  for  next 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  It  just  depends  how  many  we  can. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  have  any  difficulty  in  getting  acres  under 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  didn't  have  any  difficulty  in  getting  acreage. 
We  had  difficulty  getting  seed.  We  have  to  go  out  and  buy  the  seed 
for  the  growers  down  here. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  find  that  the  growers  are  willing  to  contract 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes,  we  haven't  had  any  trouble. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  those  contracts  made  at  a  specified  price,  ahead 
of  time? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes,  sir.  We  are  paying  them  3  cents  a  pound 
delivered  to  our  platform  as  the  beans  come  from  the  field.  We 
furnish  field  boxes  to  the  growers. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  this  3  cents  a  pound  amount  to  about  90  cents  a 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Well  it  does,  if  you  count  a  bushel  of  30  pounds, 
it  would  be  90  cents,  but  in  reality  it  is  worth  about  $1.40  for  a  bushel 
of  beans  sold  through  and  over  the  packing  houses,  due  to  the  loss  of 
beans,  dirt,  leaves  taken  out,  cost  of  hamper,  cost  of  selling  and  cost 
of  the  packing  house  for  running  beans  over  their  belts. 


Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  on  this  basis  of  90  cents — which  figures  out  as 
the  equivalent  of  $1.40  in  a  packing  house — you  have  had  no  difficulty 
in  getting  enough  acreage  under  contract.     Can  you  tell  us  what 


acreage  you  would  consider  necessary  to  keep  your  plant  operating 
at  full  capacity? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  That's  a  hard  thing  to  say.  It  depends  on 
weather  conditions  to  a  great  extent,  and  the  way  the  beans  would  be 
planted.     We  will  finish  planting  beans  this  week. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  had  in  mind,  given  usual  weather  conditions? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  They  figure  a  normal  acreage  return  down  here, 
I  would  say,  200  bushels  to  the  acre.  In  a  normal  season  on  a  2,000 
acreage  it  would  give  us  about  400,000  cases  at  least,  because  a  bushel 
of  beans  will  make  a  case  of  canned  beans.  Thirty  pounds  of  beans 
will  give  us  a  case  of  beans. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  this  2,000  or  2,500  acres  that  you  have  now 
under  contract  for  this  year  would,  with  a  fall  and  a  spring  crop,  be 
about  the  amount  that  it  would  be  necessary  to  have? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  In  a  normal  season;  yes.  For  instance,  we  have 
already  had  a  few  of  our  beans  put  in  the  ground  when  we  had  that 
frost.  Then,  the  other  day,  we  had  high  water.  I  guess  we  have  lost 
at  least  20  percent  of  our  acreage,  maybe  25  precent  of  our  acreage, 
due  to  the  abnormal  rain  the  other  day,  which  was  as  high  as  14 
inches,  they  claim,  down  at  one  of  our  points  out  where  we  lost  all 
our  beans,  but  we  have  our  beans  scattered  around  from  above 
Pahokee  all  the  way  down  the  other  side  of  Clewiston,  and  down  10 
or  15  miles  south  of  South  Bay  on  the  way  to  Miami. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  growers  do  you  have  contracts  with? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  have  one  development  that  takes  in  600 
acres.  You  couldn't  count  those  as  separate  growers.  I  guess  about 
26  growers. 


Mr.  Tipton.  In  your  trial  run,  do  you  recall  how  many  people  you 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Eighty-four.  That  wouldn't  be  as  many  as 
we  will  need,  as  we  didn't  have  so  many  beans  and  we  didn't  have  to 
have  so  many  in  the  warehouse. 

Mr.  Tipton.  The  figure  that  you  gave  us  of  225  to  250  for  the 
number  of  employees  represents  two  shifts? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  will  have  to  figure  on  running  two  shifts. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  have  any  difficulty  for  the  trial  run  in  getting 
sufficient  people  over  here? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  No. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  get  those  through  the  Employment  Service 
representative  at  the  camp? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Was  the  help  that  they  sent  over  satisfactory  for  your 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  in  the  future  you  would  plan  to  use  the  Em- 
ployment Service  and  camp  residents? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes;  that's  right. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you,  at  this  time,  anticipate  any  difficulty  in 
getting  sufficient  help  to  operate  the  plant  next  year? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Now,  that's  something  that  is  impossible  to 
answer.     I  can't  answer  it.     I  couldn't  answer  it  a  month  from  now, 


or  a  week  from  now.  We  have  two  plants  in  Maryland  and  they 
have  been  asking  me  down  here  what  we  are  going  to  do  up  there 
this  year. 


Mr.  Tipton.  That's  something  I  wanted  to  ask  you  about.  Would 
you  tell  us  what  your  other  connections  are  outside  of  the  Glades 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  The  Frederick  City  Packing  Co.  at  Frederick, 
Md.,  and  Western  Maryland  Canning  Co.  at  Thurmont,  Md. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  you  are  a  partner  in  those? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  The  Frederick  City  Packing  Co.  is  a  corporation 
which  is  controlled  by  my  wife  and  myself  and  the  Western  Maryland 
Canning  Co.  is  controlled  by  the  Frederick  Packing  Co.  It  has  the 
controlling  interest. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  do  you  can  up  there? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  can  peas,  beans,  and  fresh  white  corn,  fresh 
Golden  Bantam  corn,  whole  grain  Evergreen  corn,  whole  grain  Golden 
corn  and  Shoe  Peg  corn. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  your  organization  anticipating  any  labor  shortage 
in  that  region  now? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  would  answer  that  I  couldn't  tell  you.  We 
don't  know  until  we  start.  We  never  know  till  we  start,  but  on  peas, 
I  would  say,  we  won't  because  it  doesn't  require  so  awfully  many 
people  on  peas,  but  on  corn  and  beans,  that's  a  different  proposition 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  any  plans,  or  have  you  thought  of  the 
possibilities,  of  taking  workers  from  here  up  to  Maryland? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Five  or  six  have  been  after  us,  when  they  finish 
here  they  want  to  come  up  with  us  in  the  North,  and  if  they  do  we  are 
going  to  take  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  are  not  making  any  plans  for  furnishing  them 
transportation  or  anything  of  that  kind? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  No.  If  they  want  to  come  up,  we  will  be  glad 
to  give  them  work. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  plan  to  can  any  other  crops  down  here 
besides  beans? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  haven't  the  faintest  idea  of  what  is  going  to 
develop.  Another  thing,  it  would  be  a  question  of  tin  cans  whether 
they  would  allow  you  to  pack  some  other  things.  Now,  for  instance, 
never  having  canned  cabbage  before,  we  couldn't  can  it  now.  They 
would  not  give  us  the  cans.  We  have  taken  up  with  the  War  Depart- 
ment, and  other  departments,  in  regard  to  dehydration  but  we  haven't 
got  any  place  with  that.  We  want  to  do  a  lot  of  work,  if  possible, 
for  the  Government  with  dehydrated  vegetables. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  other  crops  grown  down  here  would  be  suitable 
for  canning? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Potatoes.     Another  item  that  has  been  banned 
on  account  of  cans  is  cabbage.     Carrots. 
Miss  Pascal.  Peas? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  No;  I  wouldn't  say  peas.  They  don't  grow  a 
pea  down  here  that  would  be  fit  to  can.  They  allow  them  to  po.t  too 
hard.     I  would  say  no;  definitely  no. 


Miss  Pascal.  How  about  tomatoes? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Tomatoes  are  all  right  but,  on  account  of  that 
storm,  I  don't  think  you  would  get  any  this  year.  There  might  be 
certain  localities  up  the  line  farther  where  the  tomatoes  would  be  all 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  they  grow  a  good  variety  here  for  canning? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  would  say  not.  They  are  a  little  too  watery. 
They  grow  so  fast  they  are  too  watery.  They  are  not  quite  solid 
enough.  You  can  get  a  fair  standard  tomato  but  you  couldn't  get 
an  extra  standard  tomato  or,  at  least,  I  have  never  seen  any  of  them 
in  Florida. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Was  the  establishment  of  this  operation  down  here  on 
the  basis  of  wartime  demands  or  do  you  have  in  mind  a  permanent 
peacetime  canning  operation  in  south  Florida? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  It  was  primarily  first  built  to  take  care  of  Gov- 
ernment orders  only.  At  the  end  of  the  war  we  haven't  any  idea 
what's  going  to  happen.  We  don't  know  ourselves.  We  don't  know 
how  long  the  war  is  going  to  keep  up.  A  man  that  would  make  a 
prediction  now  would  be  a  fool  because  you  can't  make  any  prediction, 
except  day  by  day.     I  haven't  any  idea. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Now,  this  uncertainty  that  you  mention  might  very 
well  be  true  in  Maryland  as  well  as  south  Florida? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes;  it  covers  the  whole  country. 


Mr.  Tipton.  What  I  would  like  to  have  is  an  opinion  from  you 
regarding  the  relative  possibilities  of  this  region  for  canning  beans 
and  these  other  things,  as  compared  with  Maryland  and  Ohio  or  other 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  It  is  just  as  good  a  section  as  any  other  in  the 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  produce  can  be  grown  and  purchased  here  for 
canning  at  a  price  that  will  make  canning  profitable? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  As  far  as  I  see.  I  think  you  can  get  more  raw 
material  down  here  than  any  section  that  I  know  of. 

Miss  Pascal.  If  the  prices  you  get  for  canned  goods  go  back  to 
prewar  levels,  would  you  be  able  to  pay  the  prices  farmers  demand? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  couldn't  pay  the  prices  we  are  paying  today. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  you  couldn't  pay  the  same  in  Maryland? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  No;  we  couldn't  either.  I  have  seen  beans  on 
the  Baltimore  market  as  low  as  15  to  25  cents  a  bushel. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  much  do  you  expect  to  pay  in  Maryland  this 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  haven't  the  faintest  idea  in  the  world. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  suppose  it  will  be  more  or  less  than  3  cents  a 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  haven't  the  faintest  idea.  When  you  say  3 
cents  a  pound,  you  have  to  figure  really  $1.40  to  the  farmer.  It  is 
the  equivalent  of  $1.40. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  I  am  trying  to  do  is  to  get  a  comparison  between 
your  cost  on  the  platform  here  with  your  cost  on  the  platform  in 


Mr.  Rosenstock.  Well,  I  can  only  give  you  the  experience  last  year. 
Due  to  the  drought  in  Maryland  last  year,  I  think  it  was  about  the  same 
price  as  we  are  paying  today,  as  nearly  as  I  can  remember.  With 
the  drayage  we  had  to  pay,  I  think  it  is  about  the  same  price  as  today. 
The  price  this  year  will  be  governed,  I  would  say,  by  weather  condi- 
tions— by  crop  conditions. 

Mr.  Tipton.  As  a  general  statement,  then,  you  would  think  that, 
aside  from  differing  weather  conditions  in  the  two  places,  there 
wouldn't  be  much  difference  in  the  cost  of  beans? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  No;  there  shouldn't  be. 

Mr.  Tipton.  The  transportation  of  your  canned  products  would 
be  greater? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  That's  the  only  thing  against  us.  In  fact,  I 
think  that  beans  can  be  grown  here  a  little  cheaper  than  they  can  in 
Maryland  and  that  they  could  possibly  take  the  equivalent  reduction 
in  price  and  still  make  as  much  as  the  Maryland  farmer  and,  by  doing 
that,  the  little  difference  in  the  cost  of  beans  would  very  likely  equalize 
the  cost  in  freight,  the  excess  cost  of  freight,  and  put  us  virtually  on  a 
par,  because  after  the  war,  you  see,  they  will  get  these  boat  lines  back 
in  operation.  And  then  we  could  put  our  canned  goods  on  trucks  and 
send  them  to  Fort  Pierce  and  put  them  on  boats. 

Mr.  Tipton.  From  your  experience,  as  a  cannery  operator,  and 
from  your  observations  down  here  in  south  Florida,  do  you  think  there 
is  a  future  for  the  canning  industry  or  dehydration  in  south  Florida? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  do. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  ever  purchased  any  beans  in  south  Florida 
to  can  in  your  Maryland  canneries? 
,  Air.  Rosenstock.  We  did,  in  the  winter  of  1941. 

Mr.  Tipton.  About  how  many? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  would  say,  for  the  two  plants,  about  a  hundred 
truck,  loads. 

Mr.  Tipton.  About  how  many  beans  to  a  truck  load? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  They  would  average  about  450  baskets  to  a 
truck.     Some  of  them  averaged  as  much  as  600. 

Mr.  Tipton.  These  beans  were  trucked  loose? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  No;  in  hampers. 

Mr.  Tipton.  These  beans  were  trucked  in  hampers  directly  from 
Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  From  Pompano  and  Belle  Glade. 

Mr.  Tipton.  To  your  canning  plants  in  Maryland? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes;  that's  right. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  prices  were  you  paying  for  them? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Why,  we  paid  in  the  hamper  anywhere  from  90 
cents  to  $1.05  and,  then,  we  had  to  add  freight  of  40  cents  a  hamper 
for  getting  them  up  there.  So,  for  illustration,  they  were  getting 
much  less  than  we  are  paying  them  down  here  because  over  at  the 
packing  house  they  had  to  pay  for  the  hamper.  I  think  last  fall,  they 
were  worth  17  cents  apiece.  "  Then,  about  10  cents  packing  charges, 
selling  charges  and  then  the  loss  that  they  have.  If  they  bring,  say, 
200  field  boxes  in,  that  is  supposed  to  give  400  hampers,  but  if  they 


get  350  hampers  they  are  lucky,  from  what  they  tell  me.  That's 
only  hearsay.     That's  what  the  farmers  tell  me. 

Miss  Pascal.  Why  did  you  truck  them  up  in  hampers?  We  saw 
lots  of  cannery  beans  dumped  loose  in  trucks. 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Where  they  are  loose  in  trucks,  they  only  had 
a  short  haul,  possibly  overnight.  Where  it  takes  2  days,  they  would 
overheat.     It  took  2  days  to  truck  from  here  to  Maryland. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  do  beans  truck  that  far  satisfactorily  for 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  They  are  not  as  satisfactory  as  if  they  were 
canned  right  here,  the  day  after  they  were  picked,  because  the  quicker 
you  can  get  any  vegetable  in  the  can,  the  better  it  is. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Was  last  year  the  first  year  you  bought  down  here  and 
had  them  trucked  up? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes.  We  were  down  here  year  before  last  and 
tried  to  buy  some,  but  the  price  was  so  high  we  couldn't  touch  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  other  canning  plants  did 
the  same  thing? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Yes,  they  did.  Many  of  them.  Many  beans 
were  taken  out  of  here  for  canning  in  the  North.  I  would  say,  from 
what  I  understand,  about  25  percent  of  the  beans  grown  down  here 
were  taken  by  the  canners. 

formerly  canners  bought  only  culls 

In  the  past  the  Florida  canners  have  bought  the  poorest  quality  of 
beans  on  the  market  and  paid  the  lowest  prices. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  think  that  may  have  had  something  to  do 
with  the  fact  that  many  farmers  in  this  region  think  they  can't  grow 
beans  for  canning  purposes? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  You  are  exactly  right,  because  they  didn't  want 
to  pay  any  prices,  because  they  didn't  want  quality  beans. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  you  feel,  that  by  buying  quality  beans  for  a  quality 
pack,  you  can  pay  prices  that  should  make  it  profitable  for  farmers  to 
grow  beans  for  canning? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  do,  and  I  think  that  that  may  also  become  true 
in  the  future  for  other  crops  in  Florida. 

will  get  beans  from  wide  area 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  plan  to  get  all  of  your  beans  in  the  Belle 
Glade-Pahokee  district  or  do  you  think  you  will  truck  in  some  beans? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  No  ;  we  are  covered  from  Moore  Haven  to  about 
10  miles  north  of  Canal  Point. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  in  the  case  of  severe  weather  conditions  in  any 
one  section 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  We  would  go  to  the  other  section  and  pull 
them  in. 

Mr.  Tipton.  By  the  other  section  you  mean 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  Pompano,  Homestead.  If  necessary,  we  could 
pull  them  in  from  Georgia  back  this  way. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  been  thinking  of  contracting  any  acreage 
down  in  the  Dade  County  or  Pompano  areas  to  give  you  a  supply  of 
beans  during  the  midseason  slack  here? 


Mr.  Kosenstock.  We  have  taken  it  up  with  several  of  the  large 
growers  down  there,  but  they  are  gamblers  at  heart  and  just  don't  want 
to  put  their  name  on  the  dotted  line,  thinking  it  is  a  good  thing,  but 
they  don't  want  to  put  it  there. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  had  much  trouble  getting  names  on  the 
dotted  line  for  the  contract  beans  around  here? 

Mr.  Rosenstock.  I  would  say  no.  No;  we  haven't  around  here. 
We  were  unknown  and  the  canning  industry,  from  the  way  I  under- 
stand it,  has  a  black  eye.  There  was  a  little  cannery  up  here  at 
Pahokee  and  one,  possibly,  at  some  other  little  point  that  took  the 
farmers  in  for  quite  a  bit  of  money,  and  we  started  under  a  handicap. 
They  didn't  know  us  but  we  have  all  the  farmers  coming  to  us.  We 
didn't  know  any  of  them  outside  of  one  operation  where  they  put  out 
about  600  or  800  acres.     We  did  know  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you  for  this  information,  Mr.  Rosenstock. 

APRIL.  26,  1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  your  name  and  your  address? 

Mr.  Hall.  Norman  Hall,  Belle  Glade,  Fla. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  live  here  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  a  house  of  your  own  or  do  you  rent? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  have  a  house  of  my  own. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  live  in  it  with  your  family? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  got  a  couple  of  houses. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  rent  out  one? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  live  in  the  other? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  anybody  else  live  in  the  house  that  you  live 
in,  or  just  you  and  your  family? 

Mr.  Hall.  No  one  else. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  live  in  the  other  house? 

Mr.  Hall.  Ten  families. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  kind  of  work  do  you  do,  Mr.  Hall? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  haul  for  different  people.  I  have  a  truck.  Contract 
field  work,  beans,  potatoes,  just  anything  on  the  farm. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  say  that  you  contract? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  your  men  work  directly  for  you? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes;  those  I  hire  work  directly  for  me.  Here  in  Belle 
Glade,  I  don't  work  over  four. 

Mr.  Tipton.  They  drive  your  truck? 

Mr.  Hall.  Sometimes  they  do. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  they  do  the  rest  of  the  time? 

Mr.  Hall.  Head  beans,  tote  them  out. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  mean  by  heading  beans? 

Mr.  Hall.  Put  the  covers  oh  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  anyone  else  working  for  you  in  beans? 

Mr.  Hall.  No,  sir.     Four  is  the  highest  I  have. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Then  you  hire  out  your  truck  and  these  four  men 
to  growers  who  want  their  beans  harvested? 


Mr.  Hall.  The  way  I  does  it,  I  take  the  contract  to  head  those 
beans  and  tote  those  beans  to  the  station  or  to  the  packing  house, 
or  where  those  beans  go  at.  I  head  them  in  the  field,  load  them 
on  the  truck,  and  take  them  to  the  station  or  the  packing  house  and 
they  pays  me  so  much  a  hamper. 

Miss  Pascal.  Aren't  a  good  many  of  the  beans  just  put  in  field 
boxes  in  the  field  and  packed  in  hampers  at  the  packing  house? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  ma'am;  but  very  seldom  I  handle  that  kind,  all 
the  same  beans  but  they  usually  head  them  in  the  field. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  handle  the  beans  that  are  packed  ready  for 
shipping  in  the  field? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes;  in  the  field. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  many  growers  have  their  beans  packed  in  the 

Mr.  Hall.  Not  too  many  of  them;  most  of  them  packing  them 
at  the  packing  house. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  most  of  the  growers  who  pack  in  the  field  small 

Mr.  Hall.  That's  right,  small  growers;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  They  don't  send  their  beans  to  the  packing  house? 

Mr.  Hall.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  anything  at  all  to  do  with  picking  beans? 

Mr.  Hall.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  ever  get  pickers  for  the  growers? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes;  I  get  pickers  for  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  a  crew  that  works  with  you  every  day 
for  picking? 

Mr.  Hall.  No,  sir.  I  just  goes  up  on  the  corner,  where  they  load, 
every  morning  and  get  a  truck  load  of  pickers  there  and  take  them  to 
the  field. 

Miss  Pascal.  When  you  get  pickers  at  the  corner  you  are  getting 
them  for  the  farmer  that  you  head  and  haul  for? 

Mr.  Hall.  That's  right. 

Miss  Pascal.  But  you  don't  pay  those  pickers? 

Mr.  Hall.  No,  ma'am;  he  pays  the  pickers. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  say  that  you  get  the  pickers  at  the  corner? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  is  this  corner? 

Mr.  Hall.  Well,  the  only  thing  I  could  tell  you  is  it's  up  the  street 
here  in  Belle  Glade  and  all  the  trucks  park  up  there  in  the  morning. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  trucks  are  there  in  the  morning? 

Mr.  Hall.  From  10  to  60.  That's  the  way  it  runs  and  7  o'clock 
we  load.  When  the  police  blow  the  whistle,  they  get  on  any  truck 
they  want  to. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  can't  start  loading  a  truck  until  7  o'clock,  when 
the  police  whistle  blows? 

Mr.  Hall.  Seven  o'clock  when  the  whistle  blows,  we  load. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  there  ever  any  competition  down  at  the  corner 
between  one  truck  and  another  to  get  loaded  when  there  are  not  enough 

Mr.  Hall.  Some  of  them  never  get  loaded  out  and  some  of  them 
get  a  half  a  load.     Some  get  four  or  five  on  a  truck. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  they  start  bidding  against  each  other? 


Mr.  Hall.  Sometimes.  Some  will  pay  35,  some  25,  some  40  cents, 
and  this  season  they  have  paid  as  high  as  50  cents,  which,  is  according 
to  the  beans. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Was  there  more  bidding  this  year? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Higher  wages  this  year  than  before? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir.  I  don't  know  exactly.  The  pickers  is  not 
exactly  scarce  because  more  people  here  this  year  it  seems  to  me, 
more  here  this  season  than  before.  There  were  more  beans  this 
season,  didn't  have  no  bad  weather,  no  freezing. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  contract  anything  besides  beans? 

Mr.  Hall.  That's  all  I  contract  here. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  much  a  hamper  do  you  get  for  heading  and 

Mr.  Hall.  Ten  cents. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  you  truck  those  wherever  the  grower  makes  his 
arrangements  to  sell  them? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Now,  you  said  a  moment  ago  that  beans  were  all 
you  contracted  here? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  contract  some  place  else? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  I  leave  here  around  the  15th  of  May  and  I  go  to 
South  Carolina. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  part  of  South  Carolina? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  go  out  from  Charleston  18  miles  to  Wadlow  Island. 
I  don't  contract  there;  I  only  haul  there,  out  to  the  field. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  crop  is  that,  potatoes? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  do  you  go  from  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  goes  to  North  Carolina  and  I  hauls  there.  I  don't 
contract  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  part  of  North  Carolina? 

Mr.  Hall.  Up  around  Bayboro,  Vandemere. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  crop  do  you  haul  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  Potatoes. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  then  from  North  Carolina? 

Mr.  Hall.  Virginia. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  do  you  do  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  contract  there. 

Miss  Pascal.  In  what  crop? 

Mr.  Hall.  Potatoes,  but  I  don't  do  any  hauling.  I  only  contract 
the  grading,  but  we  don't  have  a  wash  house.     We  just  have  a  grader. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  are  you  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  Thirty  days. 

Mr.  Tipton.  From  there,  where  do  you  go? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  goes  to  Pocomoke,  Md. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What's  going  on  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  haul  beans  and  tomatoes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  do  any  contracting  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  No,  sir.     I  don't  do  any  contracting  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  does  that  last? 

Mr.  Hall.  Well,  I  only  stay  there  2  weeks,  for  I  go  from  there  to 
the  canning  house.     I  go  to  Newark,  Del. 

6039G— 42— pt.  33 16 


Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  they  can  at  Newark? 

Mr.  Hall.  Tomatoes  and  peas  and  corn. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  do  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  run  the  washer  there.  I  wash  tomatoes.  I  just 
work  there.     I  don't  use  the  truck  at  all. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  are  you  at  Newark? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  stay  there  about  3  months. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Until  what  date  do  you  stay  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  To  the  20th  of  October,  and  then  I  leave  there  and 
I  come  back  to  Florida  and  start  all  over  again. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  years  have  you  been  going  on  this  route? 

Mr.  Hall.  Ever  since  1936,  regularly  every  summer. 

Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  been  working  for  the  same  people? 

Mr.  Hall.  The  same  people  in  Delaware,  the  Phillips  Canning 
Co.  Of  course,  I  worked  for  them  4  years  in  Cambridge,  Md.,  same 
people,  but  I  quit  going  there  and  go  to  Delaware. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  are  you  planning  to  do  this  summer?  The 
same  thing? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes. 


Miss  Pascal.  Are  you  going  to  take  up  a  load  of  workers? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes.     I  usually  take  a  load  of  hands  right  from  here. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  are  the  tires  on  your  truck? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  got  good  tires.  I  looked  out  for  them  before  the  tire 
rationing  came  on. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  hands  do  you  take  up  from  here? 

Mr.  Hall.  Thirty-three. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  take  those  to  South  Carolina? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  then  do  you  take  them  on  with  you  from  there? 

Mr.  Hall.  All  the  way  up.  The  same  33.  Sometimes  some  of 
them  leave  and  some  more  Florida  people  will  get  with  me. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  on  the  rounds  you  usually  have  about  33 
people  with  you? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  big  is  your  truck? 

Mr.  Hall.  It  is  a  ton  and  a  half  Chevrolet  truck. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  do  you  fix  it  up  for  hauling  the  people  from  one 
place  to  another? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  put  3  seats  in  there,  and  those  seats  will  set  about  10 
apiece.  Before  I  put  my  seat  in,  I  put  tarpaulin  along  the  sides  to  keep 
the  wind  off,  and  overhead  so  if  it  rains  it  don't  get  wet,  and  those 
seats  will  set  about  10  apiece,  which  will  be  30,  and  3  can  go  in  the  cab. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  is  the  trip  up  to  your  first  stop? 

Mr.  Hall.  Around  700  miles. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  stop  overnight  any  place  or  do  you  go  right 
straight  on? 

Mr.  Hall.  No,  I  go  right  straight  on.     Just  stop  to  eat,  that's  all. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  hours  does  it  usually  take  you  to  go  to 
South  Carolina? 

Mr.  Hall.  About  20  or  25  hours. 



Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  charge  these  people  to  take  them  up? 

Mr.  Hall.  Yes,  sir. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  much  do  you  charge? 

Mr.  Hall.  $3  from  here  to  South  Carolina. 

Miss  Pascal.  Then  how  much  from  South  Carolina  to  Delaware? 

Mr.  Hall.  $1.50  from  South  Carolina  to  North  Carolina,  $2  from 
North  Carolina  to  Virginia,  50  cents  from  Virginia  to  Maryland. 
-    Miss  Pascal.  And  then  when  you  come  back  to  Florida  in  the  fall, 
how  much  do  you  charge  from  Delaware  to  Florida? 

Mr.  Hall.  I  charge  $5.  It  is  cheaper  coming  back.  You  don't 
have  all  that  stop  to  make. 

Miss  Pascal.  Thank  you. 

APRIL  27,  1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  your  name  and  address  for  the  record? 

Mr.  McLendon.  My  name  is  Bryan  McLendon,  Belle  Glade,  Fla., 
post  office  box  444. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Your  occupation? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  guess  you  would  call  it  harvester.  You  see, 
what  I  do  is  pick  and  harvest.  I  don't  know  just  how  you  would  put 
it  down,  picking  and  hauling  perishable  produce  down  in  this  section, 
potatoes,  and  so  forth,  potatoes,  beans,  cabbage,  lettuce,  escarole, 
whatever  happens  to  be  on  the  farm. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  are  not  a  grower  yourself? 

Mr.  McLendon.  No. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  sort  of  arrangements  do  you  make  with  growers 
for  harvesting? 

^  Mr.  McLendon.  The  way  we  do  that  is  picking  cost,  plus.  In 
other  words,  it  is  a  cost-plus  propostion.  They  pay  us  so  much  a 
hamper  for  picking  it  plus  what  it  costs  to  pick. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  your  own  trucks  and  transport  the  pro- 
duce to  the  packing  sheds? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Packinghouses?     Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  the  actual  picking  cost  per  hamper  is  paid  by  the 
grower — to  you,  then  you  pay  the  picking  help,  and  there  is  an  addi- 
tional amount  you  receive  for  supervising;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  McLendon.  That's  right. 


Mr.  Tipton.  What  have  the  picking  rates  been  this  year? 

Mr.  McLendon.  That  runs  per  hamper.  It  depends  on  the  quality 
of  the  stuff,  you  know.  They  try  to  have  a  scale  of  approximately  20 
cents.  This  year,  I  would  say,  25  cents  for  the  first  picking  and  then  it 
varies  from  30  to  35  and  as  high  as  40  cents  for  the  second  and  third 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  the  rates  higher  this  year  than  last  year? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  would  say  about  a  nickel  higher  than  last  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  charge  do  you  make  for  the  hauling  and  super- 


Mr.  McLendon.  Eight  cents  a  hamper. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  are  the  highest  picking  rates  you  have  had  to 
pay  this  year? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Forty-five  cents,  I  think. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  often  have  you  gone  that  high? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Just  once,  a  poor  patch,  poor  quality  stuff. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  there  a  generally  recognized  picking  rate  for,  say  a 
good  first  picking,  a  second  picking,  and  so  on? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  think  30  cents  is  the  rate  now  for  first  picking. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  it  is  higher  for  second  and  third  pickings? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes;  it  generally  raises  a  nickel  each  time  you 

Mr.  Tipton.  After  the  first  picking,  how  long  a  time  elapses  be- 
tween the  first  and  second? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Four  days. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  then  how  long  before  the  third? 

Mr.  McLendon.  About  the  same. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  beans  ever  left  unpicked  in  the  fields? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Now,  that  depends  on  the  scarcity  of  labor,  rain, 
bad  weather.  The  price,  of  course,  has  got  something  to  do  with  that. 
If  they  are  not  worth  picking,  they  don't  pick  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  In  your  experience,  do  you  know  of  any  cases  in  which 
the  first  picking,  which  as  I  understand  it  is  the  best,  has  been  left 
in  the  field? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes;  there  has  been  a  lot  of  it  at  different  times, 
different  years.     I  haven't  seen  any  of  it  this  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  is  the  chief  reason  for  leaving  beans  in  the  field? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Poor  markets. 

Mr.  Tipton.  But  that  has  not  happened  this  year? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  don't  believe  so.     I  haven't  heard  of  any  of  it. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  most  growers  pick  their  fields  three  times? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Very  seldom. 

Mr.  Tipton.  About  twice? 

Mr.  McLendon.  About  twice,  I  would  say,  would  be  an  average. 
A  good  many  years  they  only  pick  it  one  time.  Depends  on  the  year, 
the  amount  of  acreage,  and  what  the  market  is. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  acres  here  in  this  region  do  you  usually 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  would  say  around  1,200  acres  on  the  job  we  are 
working  on  now. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  that  acreage  belong  to  one  grower  or  several 

Mr.  McLendon.  Several  different  growers. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  is  that  about  the  number  of  acres  you  handle 
every  year? 

Mr.  McLendon.  No;  that  varies.  There  is  no  set  number.  It 
would  vary  from  one  year  to  the  other.  It  just  depends.  With  three 
or  four  growers,  it  would  depend  on  what  they  planted. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  don't  work  for  the  same  growers  every  year? 

Mr.  McLendon.  No;  not  necessarily. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  a  regular  crew  that  you  hire  all  year 

Mr.  McLendon.  No  regular  men  at  all.  It  all  works  with  the 
season.     If  I  work  a  week,  I  hire  a  crew  for  a.  week.     If  6  months,  I 


try  to  hire  a  crew  all  the  time.  In  this  migratory  labor  you  never 
have  a  crew  that  you  can  depend  on.  You  may  work  them  a  week 
and  maybe  he  is  with  someone  else  the  next  week.  You  know  how  it 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  you  depend,  I  suppose,  on  picking  up  your  crew, 
day  by  day,  down  in  the  quarters?  Do  you  get  any  from  the  migratory 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  have  used  some  from  out  there,  but  I  haven't 
been  in  there  this  year  to  haul  any  out.  They  volunteer  to  come  out 
themselves  to  the  field.     Most  of  them  have  cars  and  drive  out  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  used  the  farm  placement  man  with  the 
Employment  Service  at  all? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  haven't. 

HIRES    AS    MANY    AS    500    PICKERS 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  hands  do  you  use  in  your  operations  on  a 
peak  day? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  would  say  as  high  as  500.  That's  the  top 

Mr.  Tipton.  Can  you  give  us  an  idea  of  what  the  average  crew 
would  be,  during  the  course  of  the  bean  season? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  have  no  way  in  the  world  of  estimating. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  one  day  you  might  have  as  few  as  a  dozen  or 
up  to  as  many  as  500? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  operate  in  any  other  areas  besides  Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  go  up  to  New  Jersey  in  the  summer. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  do  you  leave  for  New  Jersey? 

Mr.  McLendon.  July,  along  the  middle  of  July. 

Mr.  Tipton.  To  what  part  of  New  Jersey  do  you  go? 

Mr.  McLendon.   High ts town,  N.  J. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  crops  do  you  work  in  up  there? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Potatoes  and  tomatoes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  handle  them  on  a  crop  contract  basis  as  you 
do  here? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Practically  the  same. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  take  any  workers  up  there  with  you? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  take  them  all  with  me.  I  take  them  right 
with  me. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  how  many  workers  do  you  take  with  you? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  would  say'  75  or  100,  depending  on  the  job. 
You  always  take  more  than  you  use  because  you  lose  part  of  them 
after  you  get  there.  They  drift  around.  You  never  use  as  many  as 
you  carry,  as  a  rule. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  Hightstown,  N.  J.,  the  only  place  you  operate? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  do  you  stay  up  there? 

Mr.  McLendon.  About  2  months. 

Miss  Pascal.  Then  you  come  directly  back  to  Florida? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes. 


Miss  Pascal.  So  that  you  are  back  here  before  the  bean  season 
starts  in  the  fall? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes.  This  year  I  am  going  to  stop  in  North 
Carolina  for  a  month  to  harvest  the  potatoes. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Elizabeth  City,  right  near  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  happen  to  make  arrangements  to  stop 

Mr.  McLendon.  They  needed  the  labor  there  and  wanted  the  work. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  they  send  a  man  down  here? 

Mr.  McLendon.  No;  I  was  up  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  On  your  last  trip  up  North,  you  made  arrangements 
for  this  year? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  expect  this  stop  in  North  Carolina  to  become 
a  permanent  arrangement? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  would  think  so  if  it  works  out  satisfactorily. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  that  will  be  on  the  same  contracting  basis? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  In  New  Jersey,  is  your  contract  work  paid  by  the 
piece  in  potatoes  and  tomatoes? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Pay  so  much  a  sack. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  tomatoes? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Practically  the  same,  so  much  a  basket. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  said  that  down  here  you  pick  up  your  crew  from 
the  quarters  every  day  and  then  when  you  get  ready  to  go  north  you 
take  a  crew  gathered  here.  Are  some  of  them  people  who  have  been 
working  for  you  a  good  part  of  the  winter  and  some  people  you  just 
pick  up? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Well,  I  always  try  to  get  a  crew  together  that  I 
know  has  been  with  me  off  and  on.     It  makes  a  more  desirable  crew. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  kind  of  living  arrangements  do  they  make  for 
your  crew  up  in  New  Jersey? 

Mr.  McLendon.  They  just  have  houses  on  the  farm.  Last  year 
we  had  a  big  two-story  building  right  at  the  edge  of  the  farm.  They 
stayed  there.  Some  stayed  in  the  barn.  I  understand  this  year  he  is 
building  quarters  up  over  his  barn.  He  was  down  this  year  and  told 
me  what  he  was  going  to  do. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  take  up  just  single  men  or  do  you  take 

Mr.  McLendon.  No;  I  take  up  any  kind  that  want  to  work, 
families — men  and  their  wives  and  children. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  charge  them  or  do  they  contribute  to  the  cost 
of  transportation? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Sometimes  they  don't  contribute  anything.  Last 
year  they  didn't  pay  anything.  Previous  years,  some  years  I  have 
carried  them  up  and  just  figured  the  expense  of  the  trip  and  each  one 
pays  his  equal  part  after  they  get  up  there,  if  yon  can  catch  him  when 
it  comes  time  to  pay  off.  We  try  to  make  it  that  way.  We  never 
make  any  set  fee  or  anything  of  the  kind. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  are  the  expenses  for  each  of  the  people — on  an 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  would  say,  offhand,  $2  apiece,  depending  on  how 
many  you  carry,  how  many  trucks.     That's  up  to  Jersey. 


Miss  Pascal.  How  many  trucks  do  you  usually  run  up  there? 
Mr.  McLendon.  About  two  to  four. 


Miss  Pascal.  On  days  when  you  want  to  gather  up  a  crew  down 
here  in  the  quarters,  what  time  do  you  take  your  trucks  down? 

Mr.  McLendon.  About  7  in  the  morning. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  they  let  you  load  up  before  7? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Well,  I  think  they  have  tried  to  make  a  ruling 
here  everybody  loads  out  about  7  o'clock. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  trucks  usually  go  down  there? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Well,  of  course,  the  variation  of  the  trucks  might 
be  10  this  morning  and  50  another  morning. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What's  the  most  you  have  ever  seen? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  don't  know  because  I  wouldn't  go  round  and 
count  them.  I  think  50  sometimes.  I  have  seen  that  many,  probably 

Miss  Pascal.  How  do  they  decide  on  the  prices  to  be  paid  that  day? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Everyone  knows  the  price  of  picking  before  they 
go  down  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  do  the  hands,  decide  which  truck  they  are  going 
to  go  on? 

Mr.  McLendon.  They  pick  their  men.  If  they  like  me,  they  will 
probably  go  tomorrow.  If  he  goes  out  and  I  make  him  mad  and  he 
don't  like  the  lay-out,  he  will  probably  go  with  someone  else  tomorrow. 
He  figures  the  quality  of  the  beans,  whether  it  is  first  or  second  picking. 
He  might  want  to  go  into  first,  naturally  he  would,  and  some  of  them 
might  think  they  make  more  in  the  second  picking,  and  there  are 
different  varieties  of  beans  they  prefer.  It  depends  a  good  deal  on 
what  kind  of  beans  you  have,  how  well  you  know  them,  and  so  on. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  there  usually  a  certain  price  that  all  of  the  trucks 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  say  there  is  always  a  fixed  price.  They  try  to 
pay  the  same,  everybody  on  the  first,  second,  and  so  forth. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  they  always  hold  to  that? 

Mr.  McLendon.  You  know  how  that  would  work  out.  Someone 
a  little  short  of  pickers  is  liable  to  boost  the  price  in  order  to  get 
pickers.  That's  the  way  farmers  are  working  all  over  the  country 
now.     They  never  work  together.     They  are  not  very  cooperative. 

Miss  Pascal.  Why  would  one  farmer  be  so  afraid  of  not  getting  a 
load  that  he  would  have  to  raise  the  price? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Well,  there  could  be  various  reasons  for  that. 
He  could  not  be  very  well  known  or  know  where  bis  field  was,  the 
Negroes  might  not  know  him  or  where  his  field  was.  It  might  be  he 
was  one  of  these  the  Negroes  call  "busting  the  hamper."  Of  course, 
that's  exaggerated.  I  am  just  using  this  slang  word  for  the  expression. 
In  other  words,  they  think  the  farmer  puts  too  many  beans  in  the 
hamper,  that  they  have  to  pick  too  many.  It  is  not  that  they  put  in 
too  many  beans  but  they  don't  like  to  fill  up  the  hamper.  We  have  a 
lot  of  trouble  getting  them  to  fill  up  the  hamper,  to  put  enough  beans 
in  them.  They  go  by  the  weight,  you  know,  so  much  weight  per 
hamper,  and  it's  hard  to  make  them  get  that  weight  in  there. 


Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  any  idea  as  to  what  the  labor  supply  will 
be  like  next  season? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Well,  the  only  difference  would  be,  I  would  say, 
it  would  depend  on  how  many  they  draft  and  take  out  of  here.  Labor 
always  comes  down  here  in  the  South  in  the  wintertime  and  works 
right  back  to  the  North  again. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  much  of  the  labor  that  comes  down  here  go  up 
either  to  New  Jersey  or  to  Michigan  or  some  other  northern  State  in 
the  summer? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Practically  all  of  it. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  there  many  people  who  have  cotton  farms  in 
Georgia  and  go  back  to  the  cotton  farms  in  the  summer? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  think  those  cotton  farmers  have  a  crew  pretty 
well  all  of  the  time.  I  think  they  stay  pretty  well  all  the  year  round. 
Some  drive  in,  of  course,  down  here  from  other  sections  but  I  think 
that's  more  of  a  stable  crew.  They  have  about  the  same  families  on 
the  farm  mostly.  That's  my  observation.  I  was  never  very  intimate 
with  the  cotton-growing  situation  because  I  was  never  interested  in  it. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  do  you  come  from? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  am  a  native  of  Florida. 


Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  have  any  idea  of  about  how  many  other  people 
here  do  harvest  contracting? 

Mr.  McLendon.  No;  I  don't.     I  don't  know  how  many. 

Miss  Pascal.  Is  much  contracting  done? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  think  practically— not  all,  but  the  biggest  part 
of  it  is  harvested  that  way  in  this  section. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  practically  all  of  the  big  growers  harvest  in  that 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  think  so;  yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  the  smaller  growers? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Well,  some  of  the  smaller  ones  harvest  their  own 
stuff,  but  I  would  say  that  the  biggest  percentage  of  them,  even, 
have  someone  else  take  it  for  them. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  true  of  beans? 

Mr.  McLendon.  That  is  what  I  was  talking  about — beans. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  potatoes? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  don't  believe  that  there  are  as  many  of  the 
potatoes  harvested  that  way.  I  think  the  farmers  mostly  harvest 
them  themselves,  but  there  are  a  good  many  potatoes  harvested 
that  way. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  about  celery? 

Mr.  McLendon.  The  farmers  practically  do  all  that  themselves 
with  their  own  crew. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  there  any  other  crops  harvested  this  way?  Cab- 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  would  say  cabbage  and  peas — that's  the  biggest 
crop  that  would  be  harvested. 

Mr.  Tipton.  I  think  you  said  that  you  harvested  some  escarole 
and  other  vegetables? 

Mr.  McLendon.  They  don't  grow  as  extensively  as  the  beans  and 
cabbage.     That  is  the  biggest  part  of  ours — beans  and  cabbage. 



Miss  Pascal.  When  you  are  picking  a  crop  for  a  grower  who  has 
some  people  in  his  own  quarters,  do  you  usually  use  them  or  does  he 
ordinarily  need  them  for  his  regular  field  work? 

Mr.  McLendon.  If  he  needs  them  for  his  field,  he  uses,  of  course, 
what  he  needs,  but  if  there  is  any  surplus,  we  use  them. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  take  them  for  your  crew? 

Mr.  McLendon.  They  go  to  the  field  and  work  the  same  as  the 
other  Negroes  and  you  sort  of  supervise  them.  We  have  to  do  this, 
of  course,  check  the  beans  and  so  on. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  then  he  pays  you  for  their  work  and  you  pay 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes;  that's  right,  pay  them  by  the  hamper,  what- 
ever the  rate  is.  In  other  words,  we  act,  you  might  say,  as  an  agent 
for  the  farmer.  We  go  out  and  supervise  the  field,  put  the  labor  in 
the  field  and  he  pays  us  so  much  for  our  efforts,  trucks,  and  so  forth, 
and  we  naturally  pay  off  the  help  for  him. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  say,  I  believe,  that  you  pick  up  help  in  the  quar- 
ters at  7  o'clock.     Can  you  pick  beans  that  early.? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  would  say  not  earlier  than  8  o'clock.  Now, 
canneries,  they  can  use  it  picked  a  little  earlier  because  they  have  to 
wash  it  anyway  before  they  can,  but  the  stuff  that  goes  on  the  market 
has  to  be  thoroughly  dry  before  you  can  pick  it,  so  that,  of  course, 
depends  on  the  weather,  how  quick  the  field  dries,  with  regard  to 
when  you  can  pick. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  how  long  is  it  before  the  field  is  dry  enough? 

Mr.  McLendon.  You  wait  a  lot  of  times  until  noon. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  does  the  help  do  after  you  get  them  out  to  the 

Mr.  McLendon.  Just  sit  there  and  wait,  get  their  breakfast.  You 
know,  they  generally  have  a  sandwich  wagon  that  supply  drinks, 
sandwiches,  water,  and  so  forth.  They  run  that  among  themselves, 
but  a  lot  of  them  depend  on  getting  breakfast  out  there.  They  lay 
around  that  wagon  and  eat  and  drink,  and  so  forth.  Just  general 
routine.  They  might  be  playing  poker,  blackjack,  I  don't  know. 
I  don't  pay  any  attention  to  that.  The  native  Negro  does  that 
wherever  he  is,  you  know. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  there  other  crops  that  you  can't  start  picking 
early  in  the  morning,  but  have  to  wait  until  they  are  dry? 

Mr.  McLendon.  No;  I  think  that  only  applies  to  beans.  Potatoes 
and  other  leaf  stuff  it  doesn't  make  any  difference. 


Miss  Pascal.  Have  you  ever  had  any  difficulty  with  regard  to 
getting  your  workers  down  to  south  Florida  or  getting  them  back  from 
south  Florida  up  to  New  Jersey? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Not  any  special  difficulty  any  more  than — I  know 
the  first  year  I  went  up  there  they  almost  restricted  me  from  stopping 
in  town  with  the  labor  and  that  year  they  jumped  me  again  in  that  I 
couldn't  transport  them  in  trucks.  Some  city  officers  stopped  me,  in- 
spected my  license,  trying  to  find  something  they  could  squawk  about. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  was  this? 


Mr.  McLendon.  Hightstown.  The  only  thing  he  could  get  on  us, 
one  of  the  drivers  had  lost  his  driver's  license  before  he  left  here  and 
put  in  for  a  duplicate  but  I  got  away  before  he  got  it.  In  fact,  he 
didn't  know  he  had  lost  it  but  they  picked  him  up  and  find  him  $7.50 
because  he  didn't  have  it,  and  he  had  wired  Tallahassee — I  sent  the 
wire  for  him — and  he  got  a  statement  with  the  driver's  license  number 
verified,  and  that  it  had  been  issued  to  him  on  such  a  date,  number, 
and  so  forth,  everything  they  needed,  but  still  that  didn't  have  any 
bearing  on  the  fine.  They  still  fined  him.  And  there  was  some  sort 
of  a  labor  organization  or  something.  I  never  could  figure  out  just 
what  they  were.  They  ran  an  office  in  Trenton  and  this  little  fellow 
was  apparently  out  to  solicit  labor  for  different  farmers.  Instead  of  him 
going  out  and  coming  down  here  or  wiring  or  getting  some  information 
as  to  where  he  could  get  labor,  he  jumps  out  on  my  labor  and  he  went 
so  far  as  to  get  a  couple  of  the  troopers  to  go  out  to  the  camp,  and  they 
questioned  all  of  the  laborers  trying  to  find  out  just  how  they  got 
there,  how  much  they  paid  to  get  there,  and  so  forth,  and  the  only 
thing  I  could  see  that  he  was  doing,  apparently,  instead  of  trying  to 
get  labor  in  there,  he  was  just  out  trying  to  hire  my  labor  and  take 
it  somewhere  else.  Get  where  labor  was  easy  to  get  and  give  some- 
one else  the  labor.  I  couldn't  see  that  he  was  really  getting  ahead 
anywhere.  I  think  his  intention  was  all  right  but  he  went  at  it  in 
the  wrong  way. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  mean,  it  seemed  as  though  he  was  trying  to  scare 
your  workers  away  from  you  so  he  could  hire  them? 

Mr.  McLendon.  Trying  to  get  something  on  me,  it  looked  like.  I 
don't  even  remember  ms  name.  He  was  under  the  impression— I  tell 
you  what,  they  are  all  under  the  impression  that  us  fellows  that  work 
this  labor  and  transport  it,  they  think  we  make  a  lot  of  money  out  of 
it.  They  think  it  is  a  racket  in  hauling  labor  and  getting  the  money. 
I  went  to  work  with  one  man  and  he  asked  me  what  my  percentage 
would  be.  He  was  under  the  impression  that  I  got  a  certain  percent 
of  the  Negroes'  labor  that  worked  out.  I  never  did  that  in  my  life. 
Never  thought  about  it,  but  that  goes  to  show  the  ideas  they  have  up 
there  about  labor.  They  think  if  I  take  100  men  up  there  and  someone 
else  hires  them,  those  people  pay  me  so  much  of  those  wages.  They 
have  never  done  that  and  I  don't  think  anyone  has  done  it,  but  it 
shows  the  impression  of  labor  they  have  up  there. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Were  you  ever  stopped  by  law  officers  any  place  on 
your  trip? 

Mr.  McLendon.  No;  that  was  the  only  place  I  was  ever  molested 
and  that  was  after  I  was  practically  on  the  farm.  I  think,  more  or 
less,  the  officials  there  wanted  to  get  something  out  of  it  or  something, 
the  road-control  men,  the  troopers  they  call  them  up  there.  Very 
nice  fellows.  Never  had  any  trouble  with  them.  They  work  with 
us  pretty  good,  but  it  is  usually  the  cities,  and  then  I  have  heard  a 
lot  of  fellows  say  they  have  been  stopped  on  the  road  and  all  that  sort 
of  stuff,  but  I  have  never  run  into  that,  but  there  is  different  places 
you  go  into  where  there  are  restrictions  where  they  won't  let  you  load 
labor  and  take  it  out. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  do  you  find  that? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  heard  it  was  in  Delaware  and  on  the  east 
coast  down  here  in  Florida.  Of  course,  I  don't  think  that's  anything 
that  would  be  of  any  importance  to  the  record.     That  is  more  or 


less  the  district  that  it  is  in.  They  probably  need  labor  there  and 
don't  want  you  to  haul  it  away  because  they  want  to  use  it. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  men  in  the  same  line  of  business  that  you 
are  in  down  here  also  operate  up  in  the  North? 

Mr.  McLendon.  I  couldn't  tell  you.     I  don't  know  that. 

Mr.  Tipton.  There  are  others?  •       ■• 

Mr.  McLendon.  Yes.  I  have  met  several  in  my  rounds  m  this 
country,  every  year,  harvest  potatoes,  crops,  and  stuff  like  that. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  years  have  you  been  working  North  in 
the  summers? 

Mr.  McLendon.  About  five  summers. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  McLendon. 

GLADE,  FLA.,  APRIL  25,  1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  the  reporter  your  name  and  address? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Jacob  McMillan,  Belle  Glade,  Fla.,  Box  612. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  live  in  the  camp  and  you  are  a  member  of  the 
camp  council? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  this  camp? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  been  here  for  2  years. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  mean  all  year  round? 

Mr.  McMillan.  No,  sir;  I  was  away  about  3  months  last  year  in 
the  summer. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  were  you  in  the  summer? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  was  in  New  Jersey. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Are  you  originally  from  New  Jersey? 

Mr.  McMillan.  No,  sir;  I  was  born  and  raised  in  Georgia. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  farm  m  Georgia? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  For  yourself?     Did  you  own  your  land? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  acres? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  had  75  acres  in  cultivation. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Were  you  growing  cotton? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Cotton,  corn,  peanuts,  and  tobacco. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  ago  did  you  leave  Georgia? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  left  in  1931. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  did  you  happen  to  leave? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  just  had  to  leave,  like  a  lot  of  them.  I  went 
broke,  everything  went  to  the  bottom  and  I  had  to  get  away. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  did  you  go  when  you  left? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  came  to  Arcadia,  Fla.,  and  went  to  work  in  the 
Nocatee  Crate  Co. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  did  you  work  there? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  worked  there  7  years. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  was  until  1938?     And  then  where  did  you  go? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  have  been  here  ever  since. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  mean  in  Belle  Glade? 


Mr.  McMillan.  Here  and  other  places  too.  I  went  up  to  New 
Jersey  last  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Had  you  ever  gone  to  New  Jersey  before? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Not  before. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That  was  your  first  trip?  Why  did  you  go  to  New 

Mr.  McMillan.  There  was  a  man  going  there.  He  said  he  had  a 
lot  of  potatoes  and  tomatoes  he  had  contracted  to  harvest,  and  he 
had  me  go  up  there  to  help. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Was  he  a  contractor  here  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes;  he  is  contracting  here  now. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What's  his  name? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Red  McLendon. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  he  contract  here  every  year? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes;  and  then  moves  up  and  goes  back  up  there 
picking  tomatoes  and  potatoes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  he  take  many  other  people? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Quite  a  bunch. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  have  any  idea  how  many? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  expect  80. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  were  you  up  in  New  Jersey? 

Mr.  McMillan.  We  went  up  there  the  11th  of  July  and  came  back 
the  1st  of  October. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  find  that  a  profitable  move? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Well,  I  think  I  did.  We  never  drew  less  than 
$68  to  $127  a  week.  Just  my  family,  of  course;  I  have  a  pretty  large 
family,  six  of  us  to  work. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  altogether  in  your  family? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Thirteen. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That's  11  children? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  plan  to  go  back  to  New  Jersey  this  year? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes,  sir. 


Miss  Pascal.  How  did  you  get  up  to  New  Jersey?  Did  Mr. 
McLendon  furnish  transportation? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes;  he  carried  us  up  in  trucks. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  your  own  car? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes;  I  have  my  own  car  now;  so  if  I  went  again 
I  would  go  in  my  own  car. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  are  your  tires? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  got  pretty  fair  tires,  except  one.  Three  good 
tires  and  two  sorry  ones. 

Miss  Pascal.  You  think  you  could  make  it  up  to  New  Jersey  and 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes;  I  believe  I  could,  like  it  stands  right  now. 

Miss  Pascal.  If  they  start  rationing  gas  and  only  give  you  5  gallons 
or  so  per  week,  it  would  be  a  little  hard  to  get  up  to  Jersey? 

Mr.  McMillan.  I  don't  think  I  would  get  very  far  if  I  had  to 
burn  out  5  gallons  and  stop  until  the  next  week  comes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  McLendon  is  plan- 
ning on  taking  people  up  in  his  trucks  this  year? 


Mr.  McMillan.  Yes,  sir;  he  is- planning  on  going  back. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  he  will  get  some  people  up  there  even  though  they 
can't  go  in  their  own  cars? 

Mrs.  McMillan.  That  will  be  so.  He  will  take  a  lot  up  that 
couldn't  go  in  their  own  cars. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  suppose  that  any  of  those  people  will  Leave 
their  cars  here  and  go  in  his  trucks? 

Mr.  McMillan.  They  did  last  year. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  kind  of  truck  does  he  run  up  there? 

Mr.  McMillan.  An  International  and  a  Ford. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  people  can  he  take  in  a  trip? 

Mr.  McMillan.  He  can  take  20  or  25  in  a  truck,  building  high 
bodies  to  them  and  big  seats  around. 

Miss  Pascal.  I  suppose  they  leave  their  ears  here  because  it  costs 
them  less  to  go  up  on  the  truck? 

Mr.  McMillan.  It  doesn't  cost  anything  to  go  up  with  him. 

Miss  Pascal.  He  takes  them  free  of  charge? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  long  does  it  take  to  get  up  there? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Three  days. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  ever  farm  down  here? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Never;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  have  always  worked  in  bean-packing  houses? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  do  you  do  in  the  packing  houses? 

Mr.  McMillan.  Catching  beans,  spreading  beans,  trucking  beans, 
and  I  am  night  watchman  down  there  now. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Thank  you. 

APRIL  26,  1942 

Mr.  Tipton.  Will  you  give  your  name  and  address  for  the  record? 

Mr.  Yearby.  William  Yearby,  Belle  Glade,  Fla.,  General  Delivery 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  long  have  you  lived  down  here  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Since  1933. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  live  here  all  the  year  round  or  just  in  the 

Mr.  Yearby.  Most  of  the  time  I  live  here  and  then  sometimes  I  go 
up  to  New  York  State. 

Mr.  Tipton.  During  the  summer? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Yes. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  sort  of  work  do  you  do  here? 

Mr.  Yearby.   Work  on  the  farm: 

Miss  Pascal.  What  kind  of  farm  work? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Bean  farm,  something  like  that.  Sometimes  drive 
tractors  and  cultivate,  all  of  that. 

Miss  Pascal.  Where  do  you  go  during  the  summer? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  been  going  to  Long  Island  at  Riverhead,  but  last 
summer  I  went  just  about  36  miles  from  Syracuse,  N.  Y.,  a  little  place 
called  Bouckville. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  kind  of  work  do  you  do  up  in  Long  Island? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Potatoes  and  cauliflower. 


Mr.  Tipton.  And  what  kind  of  work  do  they  have  up  near  Syracuse? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Beans,  picking  beans. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  ever  work  in  celery  in  New  York. 

Mr.  Yearby.  Never  did.  And  cabbage  was  too  late.  Had  to 
come  back  down.     It  was  getting  cold. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  wanted  to  get  back  down  to  Florida  for  the 

Mr.  Yearby.  Sure. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  many  months  of  the  year  do  you  usually  spend 
up  there? 

Mr.  Yearby.  In  New  York  State?     Around  3  or  4. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  do  you  leave  here? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Summertime,  June.  Coming  back  in  October  or 
some  time  in  November. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  kind  of  work  did  you  do  in  potatoes  in  Long 
Island  and  what  kind  in  beans  over  by  Syracuse? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Picking  potatoes  in  Long  Island  and  loading  potatoes, 
and  up-State  New  York  it  was  picking  beans  mostly. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  years  have  you  gone  up  there? 

Mr.  Yearby.  About  4  at  least. 

Miss  Pascal.  Do  you  usually  work  for  the  same  people  in  Long 
Island  and  up-State? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  worked  for  one  man  2  years  and  then  he  lost  his 
farm  and  then  I  worked  for  another,  and  another — that's  three — and 
then  I  went  up-State  New  York  and  worked  for  another  fellow  up  in 
the  State. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Did  you  go  to  New  York  last  year? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Sure. 

Mr.  Tipton.  So  that  every  year  for  the  last  4  years  you  have  been 
in  Floridadn  the  wintertime  and  gone  to  New  York  in  the  summertime? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Sure. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  are  you  planning  to  do  this  summer? 

Mr.  Yearby.  If  I  get  work  I  want  to  stay  here.  If  I  can't,  I  will 
go  back  up. 

Miss  Pascal.  What  do  you  think  are  the  chances  for  getting  work 
over  the  summer  here? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  haven't  reached  any  conclusion.  I  really  don't 
know,  but  I  am  working  for  Mr.  H.  C.  Worthen  and  he  might  have 
some  work  to  do.  If  he  does  I  intend  to  stay  down.  If  not,  I  intend 
to  go  back  up. 

Mr.  Tipton.  If  he  has  any  work  this  summer,  what  will  it  be? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Something  like  mole  drilling,  driving  a  tractor,  or 
something  similar  to  that. 

Miss  Pascal.  About  how  many  acres  does  he  have  on  his  farm? 

Mr.  Yearby.  They  have  100  acres  in  one  place,  55  in  one,  and  160 
in  one,  and  60  in  one  at  least. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  people  does  he  usually  keep  working  over 
the  summer? 

Mr.  Yearby.  About  four. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  are  you  from  originally? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Quitman,  Ga. 

Mr.  Tipton.  When  did  you  leave  there? 

Mr.  Yearby.  1922. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  where  did  you  go  from  there? 


Mr.  Yearby.  Jacksonville,  Fla.     I  have  been  in  Florida  20  years. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  from  Jacksonville? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Vero  Beach.  From  Vero  Beach  to  Pompano  and 
stayed  about  2  months,  then  came  to  Belle  Glade  and  been  there 
ever  since. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  were  you  doing  in  Jacksonville,  Vero  Beach, 
and  Pompano? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  worked  for  Ferris.     I  butchered  for  them  8  years. 

Mr.  Tipton.  That's  a  meat-packing  company? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Yes. 

Mr.  Tipton.  What  did  you  do  in  Vero  Beach? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  worked  on  a  tomato  farm,  A.  L.  Monroe. 

Mr.  Tipton.  And  Pompano? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  picked  beans  over  there,  so  I  didn't  have  a  steady 
job,  just  catch-as-catch-can  in  Pompano.  Then  from  Pompano  I 
came  to  Dclray  Beach,  did  the  same  thing  over  there,  picked  beans, 
and  then  to  Belle  Glade.     I  been  here  ever  since. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Where  do  you  live  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  live — L.  L.  Griffin,  I  rent  from  him. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  big  a  family  do  you  have? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  have  a  wife,  two  kids  here  and  one  in  Georgia. 
He  hasn't  been  here  for  about  a  year  or  two — my  youngest  boy. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  old  are  your  other  children? 

Mr.  Yearby.  The  other  two,  one  will  be  18  on  August  17,  born 
in  1924.  The  next  boy  born  1926,  June  15.  That  would  make  him 
16  the  15th  of  June.  And  my  baby  boy  born  the  6th  of  March  in 
1928.     He  is  a  pretty  good  sized  kid. 


Mr.  Tipton.  How  big  a  place  have  you  here  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  Yearby.  One  room  in  a  rooming  house. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  that  large  enough  for  your  family? 

Mr.  Yearby.  It  isn't,  but  we  are  making  out. 

Mr.  Tipton.  How  big  is  the  room? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Probably  12  by  14,  something  like  that,  the  best  I 
can  strike  at  it. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Do  you  cook  in  the  room? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Sure. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Is  there  water  inside? 

Mr.  Yearby.  No,  outside. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  have  to  go  out  to  a  hydrant? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Sure. 

Miss  Pascal.  Are  there  any  sanitary  facilities  in  the  building? 

Mr.  Yearby.  All  out. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  much  rent  do  you  pay  for  this  room? 

Mr.  Yearby.  $2.25  per  week  for  an  empty  room.  I  furnish  it 

Miss  Pascal.  How  many  rooms  are  there  in  this  building? 

Mr.  Yearby.  There  are  4  in  the  building.  I  am  living  in  the  one 
that  I  am  renting.  There  are  three  other  families  rent  the  others, 
just  transients,  just  in  and  out. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  ever  lived  in  the  Farm  Security  camp  up 


Mr.  Yearby.  Never. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Have  you  ever  gone  up  to  see  about  living  there? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Well,  when  they  first  opened  up,  and  told  me  how  it 
was  I  declined  the  idea.  I  thought  I  would  stay  where  I  was.  That 
was  when  it  first  opened. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Didn't  you  like  the  idea? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  liked  it  all  right  but  my  wife  didn't  like  it  so  we 
didn't  go  up.  I  guess  she  could  have  learned  to  like  it  but  you 
know  how  women  are. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Why  didn't  she  like  it? 

Mr.  Yearby.  I  don't  know  about  that.  She  would  rather  be  in 
Belle  Glade.  I  didn't  have  a  car  and  she  couldn't  get  back  and  forth 
to  town. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Does  your  wife  work  during  the  season? 

Mr.  Yearby.  She  picks  beans.  Right  now  I  am  buying  a  piece 
of  land  out  here,  trying  to  buy  it.  I  have  paid  some  on  it.  I  want 
to  build  a  home  on  it  if  I  can. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  big  a  piece  of  land  is  it? 

Mr.  Yearby.  It  is  50  feet  front  and  85  feet  deep. 

Miss  Pascal.  It  is  here  in  Belle  Glade? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Yes,  ma'am. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  when  you  buy  this  piece  of  land  you  want  to 
build  yourself  a  home  on  it? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Sure. 

Miss  Pascal.  How  big  a  house  do  you  plan  to  build  on  it? 

Mr.  Yearby.  About  six  rooms,  just  for  my  family.  That's  all  I 
pray  for.     I  just  want  a  home  for  my  family. 

Miss  Pascal.  And  you  think  that  if  you  could  get  this  job  for  the 
summer  you  will  be  able  to  earn  enough  money  here  to  buy  the  piece 
of  land  and  start  the  house? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Sure,  if  they  will  let  me  build  it.  If  they  will  let  me 
start  it,  I  believe  I  can.  If  I  could  get  it,  I  would  be  glad  to  stay  here. 
There  isn't  any  place  like  home.  I  like  to  be  hero.  I  have  paid  on 
it  but  I  still  owe  on  it.  I  haven't  paid  for  all  of  it.  It  is  on  the  install- 
ment plan.  Supposed  to  be  two  lots,  each  lot  to  be  25  feet  front  and 
85  feet  deep. 

Mr.  Tipton.  You  plan  to  build  a  six-room  house  on  this  property? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Sure. 

Mr.  Tipton.  Would  you  plan  to  keep  a  cow  and  chickens  and  have 
a  garden? 

Mr.  Yearby.  Chickens.  Ducks.  I  would  like  to